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Post by almostmercury on Nov 29, 2016 16:33:27 GMT
You get to spam exactly the units you want and they're obsec. Rolling multiple dice to make up for consistency means you need to have many models serving the same purpose, otherwise your needs can conflict with your resources. Taking the detachment means you end up with some mix that don't all serve the same purpose (shooting vs assault, clawed metamorphs vs acolytes).
The CAD gives you a obsec, which is a significant benefit compared to T1 shrouding, as MSU is not making great use of recovering models.
You have to make some concessions in troops if you want elites, but it's no different for the detachment.
In regards to Uprising, if you're taking MSU you're eschewing one of the benefits of the formation which is to deliver those models to combat consistently. 5 Acolytes doesn't hit very hard and if you don't believe me, then try it.
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Post by No One on Nov 29, 2016 16:37:48 GMT
I'll point out - I said nothing about the detachment.
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Post by almostmercury on Nov 29, 2016 16:39:19 GMT
[edit] Oh! Okay, I'm not saying take a CAD over Uprising, I'm saying if you're taking Uprising you might as well fill out the units. If you're not bothering to fill out the units, your hitting power is in a zero sum relationship with your ability to consistently roll the dice.
Or to put another way, if you're taking the formation to get more rolls of a '6' (otherwise, I dont' see the point), why are you taking units that are worse when you roll a 6?
I can't see a reason to take Brood Cycle without taking the detachment, so I was implying the contrast.
And if you're not talking about the detachment, why on earth would you NOT take a CAD for obsec?
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Post by russellr on Nov 29, 2016 21:41:57 GMT
If you're not taking the detachment, arguments can be made for taking CAD or sub uprising. There's no clear-cut winner, it simply depends what their job is. If you're thinking of taking a CAD, you're likely taking them as allies, cos their big detachment is really good and fluffy. And if you're taking them as allies, yep if depends why you're taking them, as to HOW you should take them (CAD vs formations).
That's my opinion anyway.
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Post by almostmercury on Nov 29, 2016 21:45:09 GMT
Do whatever you want if you're trying to be fluffy. I'm trying to make an argument about how the strongest armies will likely use the Uprising or CADs and straight up forget about the insurrection.
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Post by russellr on Nov 29, 2016 22:53:14 GMT
Do whatever you want if you're trying to be fluffy. I'm trying to make an argument about how the strongest armies will likely use the Uprising or CADs and straight up forget about the insurrection.
Do you mean as a full army or as allies?
I don't think the strongest 1850 GSC will use CAD or multiple uprisings.
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Post by almostmercury on Nov 29, 2016 23:10:11 GMT
The strongest armies will use Militarum Armour or Tyranid FMCs. You choose.
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Post by smitejr on Nov 30, 2016 0:40:20 GMT
Do whatever you want if you're trying to be fluffy. I'm trying to make an argument about how the strongest armies will likely use the Uprising or CADs and straight up forget about the insurrection.
Do you mean as a full army or as allies?
I don't think the strongest 1850 GSC will use CAD or multiple uprisings.
I'm almost certain they could do that. Magus spam to maximize telepathic summons could be the most powerful way to play cult, though I'm not quite sure that is in fact the most powerful way to play Cult. At the very least, it's one of the best way to add in significantly more psychic oomph.
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Post by russellr on Nov 30, 2016 2:10:52 GMT
The strongest armies will use Militarum Armour or Tyranid FMCs. You choose.
So when talking about GSC on its own, would you use CAD, formations, or their big detachment?
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Post by russellr on Nov 30, 2016 2:12:44 GMT
Do you mean as a full army or as allies?
I don't think the strongest 1850 GSC will use CAD or multiple uprisings.
I'm almost certain they could do that. Magus spam to maximize telepathic summons could be the most powerful way to play cult, though I'm not quite sure that is in fact the most powerful way to play Cult. At the very least, it's one of the best way to add in significantly more psychic oomph. Multiple CAD (or unbound) are definitely better than the formation, if you're looking to get lots of psychic punch. But overall? Well ... good question. Not sure what a good answer would be!
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Post by No One on Nov 30, 2016 3:16:30 GMT
I'm almost certain they could do that. Magus spam to maximize telepathic summons could be the most powerful way to play cult, though I'm not quite sure that is in fact the most powerful way to play Cult. At the very least, it's one of the best way to add in significantly more psychic oomph. Not really. Consider this: with 4 Magus', 1 with Crouchling, the majority of the time you'll get 1 or 2 summons (the odds of getting 3+ is the same as getting none). That's 280 for 2 not entirely reliable summons (from memory, it's 7 psychic dice to give ~80% chance on a 3WC power - with only 8 ML, you're relying very heavily on luck, either for a good WC role for the phase, or just for getting it off at lower dice levels). I think the best summon (outside of edge cases where quad saws are needed) is probably 8 stealers - best defensively (112 pts vs 80 pts for acolytes, and they're better defensively point for point as well) while still having good offense in shear weight of rending attacks (free scy tals, so 4 attacks per model). Considering the fact that they're almost certainly going to have to sit around to be shot, I definitely think defense>offense. So, that's 112 pts of 'defense' (i.e. if they die before doing anything, that's all of the 'free' value you got), and 136 pts actual. With 2 summons, that's ~220-270 depending. Which is still less than the 280 of the magus'. The magus' have the chance to summon every turn, yes - but as above, that's not reliable at all for multiples, and they'll likely quickly perils themselves to death (if they don't get shot to death first). Acolyes/metamorphs get more offensive punch for free, but also miss out on the 2 dice for cult ambush from being in a Sub Up, are going to be a big 'shoot me' target, and I just think their offensive upgrades are overcosted (though possibly still sometimes worth it) and thus you're not getting as much 'value' for free. TL;DR - I have a low opinion on taking magus' purely for the purposes of summoning (note: I do not have a low opinion of magus', since I think broodmind is a very solid discipline overall).
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 30, 2016 7:22:46 GMT
Let me phrase it this way. If you want MSU, the CAD is your friend. You get very little out of Brood Cycle, Cavalcade, and Uprising when taking MSU. The benefits for being required to take certain models and you lose nothing on the CA table. The exception being uprising, but rolling more dice is better when you have more models. Still, to each their own. When you roll with units of 20, you are doing yourself a diservice. 1: You are betting all your eggs in 1 basket, with a better but still not guaranteed chance of success. 2: Your units are way overcosted. 3: Your units are TOO effective. 4. Your units are too big, and take up too much space. 5. Your units still die to Tau overwatch, Lions Blade Overwatch, Flamer Overwatch. I overcome every one of those weaknesses by playing 4 units of 5 men rolling 2 dice, instead of 1 unit of 20 men rolling 2 dice. This is because I - 1. Have a much more consistent turn out of units rolling 6s where I want them to, 2. Have extremely cheap units that I can afford to throw away 3. Use multiple units to achieve the exact level of effectiveness or to be slightly under as I need, 4. Can more easily manuveour units as they dont take up an entire ruin or cover spot or even just the enemy's front, 5. Have a majority of attacking units survive the overwatch because you can only decimate 1 unit per overwatch. Not to say that MSU dont have their own problems. Being able to find the balance between them as most people have (8 models or unit or something like that, No One?) would benefit you the most rather than filling out the Sub Uprising. CAD is probably the worst way to play a majority GSC army, because you get so little out of CAD's obsec benefit. In my meta of Eternal War, KILLING THINGS is the best way to secure the objective for T5 onwards. Even in ITC, having to stay on the objective at the start of your next turn before you can claim it means GSC has no chance, being T3 5+. Brood Cycle is your best offensive buff formation in the book, but requires a metric tonne of support to work well. Cavalcade on the other hand is a pretty standalone thing and is great for a minimum size presence on the board to let you field more shenanigans without worrying about the tax. They work very differently, although I agree BC works much better with decently filled out units. In addition, T1 shrouded is a HUGE buff, considering you can use your T1 shrouded madness to basically BLOCK your enemy from moving. Got that 20 man unit of Acolytes in Sub Uprising? String them infront of the enemy army and watch people panic as you fill up a 24" bubble around them denying any movement from any unit type whatsoever. They blow their load into majority 3+ or 2+ cover save, and you proceed to munch them after that. T1 Shrouded allows you to be an alphastriker even going second if you have the units to weather the storm. Without it, you would be basically playing chicken the entire game through and praying for 6s to do anything. The only unit in the game which is really a deadweight tax is the Abberant unit - LO AND BEHOLD, NOT A SINGLE UNIT FORCES YOU TO TAKE THEM! Just that in itself makes all the tax formations in the book rather good! Now if you're talking about bringing the Cult as an ally, I think it depends on what you want to do. You need alphastrike punch? Sub Uprising is the absolute best (going first) you could pick. Do you need ground guys being annoying and providing cover screens distractions etc? CAD + Doting Throng is amazing. Fearless Acolytes AND Neophytes that also have Adamantium Will AND Hatred, just by being near a Magus, is freaking amazing. It also allows you to do that Psyker spam thing if you really wanted to. Do you just need specialist units to deal with specialist threats? Sub Uprising with Acolytes bringing saws or cutters. Metamorphs to deal with less specialist but needing special attention. 10 men units across the board. Do you just want a big distraction unit for yours to get into place? FIRST CUUUUURSE! Never would I bring a sole or even double CAD, because you get so little out of it you're really doing yourself a disservice bringing it. Unless you just want that 1 thing somewhere specifically, like a Iconward. In which case I think you better rethink your army list building.
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Post by No One on Nov 30, 2016 10:47:08 GMT
Not to say that MSU dont have their own problems. Being able to find the balance between them as most people have (8 models or unit or something like that, No One?) would benefit you the most rather than filling out the Sub Uprising. I think that was ~right, for facing a bog standard 5 man marine squad. Depends a lot on cover though (i.e. with a 3+, you're going to have ~6 left, to ~kill the squad - the expected damage is slightly under, which'd leave you with good odds of having 1 or 2 guys left alive to keep you safe in combat. 5+ i.e. in the open with shrouded, or without shrouded but another unit in front, expected is ~half the acolytes dead, likely leaving enough marines alive to cause issues.) I'd think about bumping up to 9 just for the morale though. The issue with this is keeping the 3+/2+ - the one in front is going to find it basically impossible to maintain a cover from terrain across the entire unit. Thus they only need to shoot out T3 5++, which is going to be easy - there's going to be models in terrain, but those are unlikely to be providing cover to those behind them (especially since that'd likely mean the ones behind are also obscured by the terrain), and thus don't need to be removed before beginning to pick off the units behind, which'd now have only a 5++ (or nothing in the case of BC). Also ignores cover as well. Blocking movement (and forcing that firepower) might still be worth the sacrifice, especially if you can chain a model or 2 outside of LoS to make use of RttS and Numbers Beyond Counting (though that becomes an issue if some blocking models survive, since they're likely within 6", or close enough that it'd be easy for the opponent to get inside that and prevent). That sounds like almost the definition of a beta strike - i.e. alpha strike is all about getting it in first, and dealing all of the damage. Beta strike is going second, not taking any damage, and then counter-attacking. Nids are a good example of a beta strike list - usually perfectly happy to go second, taking minimal damage against most things that aren't really nasty, then retaliating with no loss of firepower (ideally).
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 30, 2016 15:24:44 GMT
The issue with this is keeping the 3+/2+ - the one in front is going to find it basically impossible to maintain a cover from terrain across the entire unit. Thus they only need to shoot out T3 5++, which is going to be easy - there's going to be models in terrain, but those are unlikely to be providing cover to those behind them (especially since that'd likely mean the ones behind are also obscured by the terrain), and thus don't need to be removed before beginning to pick off the units behind, which'd now have only a 5++ (or nothing in the case of BC). Also ignores cover as well. Blocking movement (and forcing that firepower) might still be worth the sacrifice, especially if you can chain a model or 2 outside of LoS to make use of RttS and Numbers Beyond Counting (though that becomes an issue if some blocking models survive, since they're likely within 6", or close enough that it'd be easy for the opponent to get inside that and prevent). The unit in front is an expendable. More than 80% of this army is played expendably, you need to be not afraid of throwing units away as long as they get something key done. In this case, they present a huge ass cover screen to everyone and hence DEMAND to be focused and dealt with - and killing a 20 man unit of anything is not that easy. Even my gargoyles dont get wiped so easily, unless a huge chunk of the enemy focuses on them. In which case I call it a win, because the other units hiding behind them now get to go to work. You can also abuse the "closest model takes the save" and basically daisy-chain the cover save from elsewhere. Not always applicable, but if you're not ALSO trying to completely block the guy's movement then it's definitely do-able. If it's an army that depends on their mobility to be effective, you've more or less won the battle already even if you take a bit of a beating before hand. Of course, you should be prudent enough to NOT do this to someone that will completely decimate your army regardless of its save and you have to sit there for two turns. That includes armies with high volume of shooting, or armies with a LOT of units to shoot at you. GSC is so good because it is also flexible, so adapt your strategy to what your opponent brought and might want to do on the table. I consider a beta-strike to be an army that counter-attacks reactively to the enemy's actions (like Zerg in SC2), rather than an army that goes second. I might have gotten the definition wrong, but that's what I thought. Alphastrike symbolizes taking the initiative to bring the fight to the enemy ASAP, so standing in their face and forcing them to do something before you eat them sounds a lot like an alpha-strike to me.
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Post by No One on Nov 30, 2016 15:38:36 GMT
The unit in front is an expendable. More than 80% of this army is played expendably, you need to be not afraid of throwing units away as long as they get something key done. In this case, they present a huge ass cover screen to everyone and hence DEMAND to be focused and dealt with - and killing a 20 man unit of anything is not that easy. Even my gargoyles dont get wiped so easily, unless a huge chunk of the enemy focuses on them. In which case I call it a win, because the other units hiding behind them now get to go to work. As I said: Just, expecting it to provide a 3+ cover to everything behind it isn't necessarily viable (I'm speaking from some limited experience on this ). *Shrug* Not exactly sure what the 'true' definition of a beta-strike is, but in the context of 40k, I'm almost positive that nids have been described as a beta-strike army, and that makes a lot of sense with how I view it. Alpha's first, beta's second - alpha attacks first, beta attacks second. Which would often be, almost by definition, a counter-attack - but it doesn't necessarily have to be reactive, though does leave the ability to react. Where as an alpha doesn't react, it...proacts? (I don't think that's even a word though). I get your point about initiative (and sort of agree) - you're making the opening move, even if you're not going first, as it were. And being very proactive. But to me (and I think basically everyone else playing 40k - I don't think I've ever heard it referred to in a non-damaging context), an alpha strike implies damage - its purpose is to cripple before potential retaliation. Which this, going second, cannot do.
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