Stealers vs super stealers.

[Halollet]

Are super stealers worth it? Taking ST, AG, and TS all to get her or is just more stealers better. Defencivly, where they struggle, more bodies would be better obviously. But I'm curious about the damage output of equal points. Doing mathhammer with rerolls is tricky for me though so any one good at the maths? 10 stealers vs 6 super stealers, both are about 140 points.

Thanks!

[twitch]

I believe the key to stealers if you want to use them is go cheap all the way. Yes you can have a devastating charge fully upgraded but what are the odds you make it to charge? With those upgrades they become more dangerous than anything else and if your opponent directs practically anything towards them they die

[metrognome]

... and none of those things help against overwatch...
If you are looking to add things to stealers... run Children of Cryptus and call it a day...
Stealth almost makes the scytals worth it... and Dominion helps for gtg shenanigans...

[Kark]

The only upgrade I was ever considering for stealers were toxin sacs, so they can do something against WKs. With I6 they attack first, they wound on 4+ and have rending and it is only 15pts for brood of 5 (85pts total).

[gigasnail]

jaysic did some numbers on them, and pimped out stealers will own face, extremely killy. The issue remains their cost and fragility.

[beefythepug]

yup, all about being able to deliver them without casualties if you go the super stealer route.

I cannot comment on how they function in 7th, I have not used any stealers since ymgarls went the way of the dodo. I will say if your opponent treats super stealers and vanilla stealers the same, the choice should be easy. Players who know how killy they are will just make you cry as you watch an expensive and fragile unit get blasted off the table.

[jaysic]

Super stealers (Or Turbo, as I call them) are not only MUCH better than base genestealers, but point for point, the BEST THING IN OUR CODEX.

If you figure that damage caused per point spent is best, anyway. For your specific example (140 points worth of genes)

10 Vanilla; 5.5 dead MEQ
6 Turbo; 7.1 dead MEQ

That's 29% more damage output and costs 2 less points. I can give you more math examples if you want, but you would need to provide me with what you want them weighed against. There's a lot of discussion about math-hammer and how applicable it is. I agree there are tons of in-game factors that don't/can't go into math-hammer. If you're trying to decide between units and what to use to fill a role, I find it to be an important factor in assisting decisions.

Now, all that being said, genestealers have problems. At 23 points / model for turbo genes, you're going to really hate the game when the MEQ unloads rapid fire bolters into you. Standard CC army tactics need to be applied to help keep them alive. Threat saturation is needed to keep them from being shot at.

I have very little experience with them at the moment, but they are my current "project" (much like Melyrants and Shrikes used to be). Sound great in theory, but have yet to be proven in practice. I have a lot of confidence that some size of genestealers will become a must have for me once I get units #s, sizes, deployment style, support units, ect figured out. I'm not there yet myself, though. 14 is the magic number that kills ANYTHING IN THE GAME that doesn't have AV14 in the rear, and doesn't have 6 HPs (damn IK). The unit also comes in at 322 points and dies like crazy, unlike shrikes or Melyrants at that point value (well, a lot less actually).

More turbogenes are better than taking a broodlord....for straight damage output. The horror fixes the assaulting through cover problem (if it works), so +1 broodlord. He can be your warlord, allowing you to be ballsier with your Tyrants. Give him command WL trait to buff the squad. Use him to tank shots that ignore cover or for overwatch. There's lots of utility in him, even though he isn't as killy as more turbogenes.

Fun fact; I was going to take 17 turbogenes, a Tyranid Prime with Mawclaws/LW/BS/FH attached, put them in a Hierophant and run them in the OHCON GT next weekend, but decided not to as it has a reputation as a "Friendly" gt that gives out more prizes during games than for actually winning. I'm taking 6 Carnifex (AG), 2 Melyrants, and a Troop Tervigon instead.

[jaysic]

Apr 9, 2015 21:36:25 GMT beefythepug said:

yup, all about being able to deliver them without casualties if you go the super stealer route.

I cannot comment on how they function in 7th, I have not used any stealers since ymgarls went the way of the dodo. I will say if your opponent treats super stealers and vanilla stealers the same, the choice should be easy. Players who know how killy they are will just make you cry as you watch an expensive and fragile unit get blasted off the table.

I'm not sure if anyone knows how killy they are, as they probably haven't faced Genestealers much at all over the past ~3 years, let alone turbogenes. The internet being awash with "Genestealers suck!" may also help lower target priority. In my test games I tend to not hype them up. I just hand over my printed list, and go over their squad size / upgrades like I do every other unit. So far I find Wyverns / TFC shoot at them initially, and not much else. The problem is, those are amazingly good at killing them. If you see ignores cover artillery, outflank them. If there isn't any, run them down the field behind a screen and keep them shrouded.

[Jabberwocky]

I find genestealers still have their scary space hulk reputation for most people. They seem to forget all the times they blow them away in a single volley.

I guess it's like my hatred of rhinos that started in 5th whereby I'll try and kill them at all costs even after they've unloaded their cargo...

[jaysic]

Note; I had 14 go against 10 GKs with 2 Librarians in the squad that were invisible and had 4++ during a league game. On the charge they killed 6 of the terms and wounded a Librarian. Bottom of the turn they killed the other 4 and wounded the other librarian. He called the game at the top of my turn 3.

[gigasnail]

I don't care for them because of all the things that kill them so well. I do run gargs, which have the same problem BUT move 12", have blinding vemom, and are half the cost.

If I took them I'd run them exactly how I run my gargs, with malanthrope and catalyst support, infiltrate to an advantageous position and slaughter troop choices (as opposed to gargpitting, because you're not going to catch fast movers unless they let you).

[N.I.B.]

14 Cracklers, that's 322 points. For that you get 20 Deamonkin Gorepack Formation Flesh Hounds with FNP, Fearless and Hammer of Wrath that laughs them off the table.

The Hounds move 12", ignore terrain, will get the charge in turn 2, the combat start off with HoW hits. Pick a likely number, like 7 ~2 dead Stealers.

Now 12 Cracklers strike back ~24 hits, 12 wounds, Hounds save 56% so ~5 wounds = 2 dead Hounds.
Now Flesh Hounds strike, (18*3)/2 = 27 hits, 13.5 wounds, ~9 dead Genestealers after 5+ save. In total 11 dead Stealers. In your turn Hounds kill the last 3 and are free to charge something in their turn.

Khorne Hounds cost 16 points... They will be EVERYWHERE in a few weeks.

[Jabberwocky]

This match up won't often happen since infiltrate let's you avoid them, but it still makes stealer rules and the codex in general feel outdated compared to a lot of formation stuff.

Look at skyblight Gargs vs stealers, they pretty much wipe them out point for point and have a 4+ chance to come back if they do somehow lose.

[jaysic]

Yeah mathed it out. If the hounds charge the genes are dead. If the genes charge, the flesh hounds will slowly lose over 3 turns, but essentially kill enough genes that they won't do anything else for the game other than obsec an objective.

People will say the hounds movement will allow them to charge. The bubble wrap for genes will make that very difficilt, imo.

Still, those hounds are nasty. You say 56% save chance...I'm assuming that's reroll invulns? How do they get that?

[Jabberwocky]

I believe it's 5++ and FnP as standard.

Stealers winning relies on being outside of a vacuum I.e screens, catalyst, paroxysm etc. The khorne could just drop in a flamer unit though.

It's not really worth matching them against eachother as there's no real context.

Comparing each of them against MEq, maybe.