Post by rehkal on Jul 23, 2012 21:11:01 GMT
I don't remember witch fire replacing normal shooting procedure, though.
When you use a psychic power which rules do you follow? The standard shooting rules?
1. Pick unit to shoot.
2. Pick target
3. Roll to hit.
4. Roll to wound.
5. Allocate wounds & remove casualties.
I certainly hope not because this isn't the process for using psychic powers. Thus when you choose to use a psychic power instead of shoot you use AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SET OF RULES. Thus, it is not normal shooting. Sure does seem like a replacement of rules to me.
So, since BLords don't have ranged weapons, only psychic shooting attacks (like Smite, for example, even if he isn't allowed to shoot it at BS0 he can still have it), and can't attack, how do Zoanthropes shoot in the shooting phase, since they can't be nominated to shoot since they dont have ranged weapons, only psychic shooting attacks. Again, same for the swarmlord or hive tyrants with only melee weapons and probably other models too. Like others have said, you argument completely ignores the fact that it makes other units unable to shoot their psychic attacks.
The rulebooks only states it needs a ranged weapon to be nominated to shoot in the shooting phase, not that it can shoot. It then says to choose a target, not once saying you need to be able to shoot to choose a target, just that you must be within range and have LOS to shoot at it. So the fact that it has to snap shot modifies it to BS1 then can hit on a 6.
How about reading all the posts before replying? I've already addressed your very question once before. Let me make it easy and copy/paste it for you.
There is nothing wrong with my logic. And zoans can use their witchfire quite easily actually. You announce your zoan will shoot witchfire and follow the steps to use a psychic power instead of shooting. The witchfire process is a complete replacement of the shooting phase process. The big difference is zoans have a BS skill to use it, blord doesn't. As using witchfire isn't considered 'normal', it can't be snapfired or used for overwatch.
Same with running. Trying to say 'how does one use witchfire/running when they have no ranged weapon' is worthless because running and witchfire simply ignores the steps to shoot.
And coredump. Of course if I say you are ignoring the answers I've already provided to you you will reply to every word I write trying to prove you aren't. It's the entire way you argue, if you feel frustrated you start picking apart every little word a person says in an attempt to belittle and discredit them. I've watched you do this numerous times here. The big reason I'm ignoring you is the vast majority of the questions you've asked have already been answered multiple times and you refuse to believe the answers. The other things you demand responses to are not worth responding to due to their idiotic and ridiculous nature.
As for the 'questions' you say I am avoiding. You post before last contained none, that's right. None.
The problem with coredump is he's ignoring the fact that BS 0 doesn't allow the model to shoot in the first place.
Now you are flat out Lying! Yes, lying. Not a difference of opinion, you are just plain lying.
I have not ignored that, in fact I have addressed it specifically. You have just chosen to completely ignore it. The fact that you are afraid to address the points I have brought up, does not mean I am ignoring anything.
I will address this *again*, and lets see if you accuse me of 'ignoring' it again....
If you shoot at a flyer, you are forced to Snap Shot instead of shooting normally. It does not matter if you can actually shoot or not.
It is like a sign saying "No Swimming", means swimming is banned, it doesn't matter if you *can* swim or not.
Similarly, look at Run. You do that 'instead of shooting'; again, it doesn't matter if you can actually shoot or not.
Following your assertions, Stealers can't Run either.
There are units that can do things in the Assault phase, 'instead of assaulting'; even if there is no one to assault, they can still do those things.
When things trigger off of a restriction, the *restriction* is the only thing that matters, not if you were affected by the restriction.
That, and you keep making assertions without any rule support...and I keep asking you for evidence...but I am sure thats not why you are ignoring me... that must just be a coincidence.
He just can't accept that BS 0 models can't shoot.[/quote
Two problems with accepting your 'fact'
1) Zogwort shoots just fine with BS0
2) I *never said* BS0 could shoot, I said BS1 could shoot.
But the Blord doesn't have BS0 when using Snap Shot.
You, however, have made a string of 'factual' statements, that I have provided explicit rules for directly disproving. (not a matter of opinion nor interpretation.) and conveniently, you just skip over that and move on with more 'assertions'; never bothering to admit your error, nor ever supporting your original, erroneous, statement.
I could list them, but it seems like a waste of time....
Two problems with accepting your 'fact'
1) Zogwort shoots just fine with BS0
2) I *never said* BS0 could shoot, I said BS1 could shoot.
page 3. zero-level characteristics.
You want rules? There you go. For the 10th or so time.
You want rules? There you go. For the 10th or so time.
You, however, have made a string of 'factual' statements, that I have provided explicit rules for directly disproving. (not a matter of opinion nor interpretation.) and conveniently, you just skip over that and move on with more 'assertions'; never bothering to admit your error, nor ever supporting your original, erroneous, statement.
I could list them, but it seems like a waste of time....
There are no questions here to answer, just ridiculous statements I have already addressed. But if it will please you, I will address the questions you asked in a previous post. And why not, I’ll pick apart your last post as well if that will make you happy.
If you shoot at a flyer, you are forced to Snap Shot instead of shooting normally. It does not matter if you can actually shoot or not.
It is like a sign saying "No Swimming", means swimming is banned, it doesn't matter if you *can* swim or not.
It is like a sign saying "No Swimming", means swimming is banned, it doesn't matter if you *can* swim or not.
This is actually a really bad example you provided and honestly it makes no sense, nor does it have any bearing, on the situation. The whole thing is snap shot according to you is giving permission to do something. A sign saying no swimming is restrictive, it has no bearing here. A better example would be giving a gun to a quadriplegic and then trying to force them to shoot it. Since they have no use of their limbs they obviously have no skill to shoot the gun, but you are saying you ARE able to force them to shoot it. Let me address that issue of BS 0 here and now while I am at it. Zero –level characteristics page 3, top right corner of the page. It states models with a 0 characteristic has NO ABILITY WHATSOEVER in that skill. They are quite clear on that by providing an example of a model with WS 0 saying they are literally incapacitated, they can NOT strike any blows… Yes, that they may not even try because if you could try it would say you auto fail any attempt to hit.
Similarly, look at Run. You do that 'instead of shooting'; again, it doesn't matter if you can actually shoot or not.
Following your assertions, Stealers can't Run either.
There are units that can do things in the Assault phase, 'instead of assaulting'; even if there is no one to assault, they can still do those things.
When things trigger off of a restriction, the *restriction* is the only thing that matters, not if you were affected by the restriction.
That, and you keep making assertions without any rule support...and I keep asking you for evidence...but I am sure thats not why you are ignoring me... that must just be a coincidence.
Following your assertions, Stealers can't Run either.
There are units that can do things in the Assault phase, 'instead of assaulting'; even if there is no one to assault, they can still do those things.
When things trigger off of a restriction, the *restriction* is the only thing that matters, not if you were affected by the restriction.
That, and you keep making assertions without any rule support...and I keep asking you for evidence...but I am sure thats not why you are ignoring me... that must just be a coincidence.
This is one of those things you have been choosing to ignore, I have already clarified in a previous post. In fact, I’ve already quoted it in this very post, look up. I have never said not having a ranged weapon means you can’t use a psychic power nor that it prevented you from running. That is your own twisted logic coming up with that. Psychic power rules replace the shooting rules when you switch to using them, same with running. That also establishes that psychic powers are NOT normal shooting attacks because it uses an entirely different set of rules.
To delve a bit more deeply into normal vs non-normal shooting, lets look at the restricted weapons list for snap shooting.
Template weapons, they auto-hit and ignore cover. This is a modification of the base shooting rules, therefore non-normal shooting.
Ordnance weapons, cannot have moved during the previous turn and may not shoot other weapons, nor can it charge after firing the ordnance weapon. These all makes changes to the phases, therefore is not normal shooting.
Blast weapon, random scatter on where it hits. Again, modifies the rules therefore it is not normal shooting.
Shooting attacks that don’t use the BS skill, generally this means auto-hit weapons and abilities. Again, this modifies the shooting phase, therefore not normal shooting.
Witchfire, disregarding the shooting phase procedure and follows the rules for psychic powers. Do I really have to say this is not normal shooting, you aren’t even using the shooting rules for this.
I have to comment on something else here, please bear with me for a moment. I love how they put ‘fired’ in quotes there when referring to the portal of exile. Almost as if the ability isn’t shot because it doesn’t need the BS skill. Not knowing what the ability actually does or says I can only guess that the portal auto-hits units. Which tells me auto-hit abilities do not need a BS skill to use.
I love how you are now calling snapshots a restriction, yet it GIVES broodlord BS1? That isn’t a restriction at all! Now it’s a restriction to any unit in the game with a BS 2+ who can, you know, actually shoot during the shooting phase.
Two problems with accepting your 'fact'
1) Zogwort shoots just fine with BS0
2) I *never said* BS0 could shoot, I said BS1 could shoot.
Oh this is getting to the best part! Remember what I said just above about auto-hit abilities not needing a BS skill to use? Yea, there you go. The only two possible psychic shooting attacks Zog has are both auto-hit, therefore he doesn’t need to use his BS skill for them.
And actually you basically keep trying to say that broodlord is BS 1 when he is clearly not BS 1. His profile is written with BS 0 everywhere it is written, he is not eligible to snap shoot because witchfire is not a normal shooting attack. Please read the nice bold words page 13, mid page right column.
‘If a model is forced to make snap shots rather than shoot normally…’
Broodlord may not shoot normally, thus he fails the requirements to make snap shots. That is, he may not be forced to shoot. According to the zero level characteristics of the book, this would be like demanding a quadriplegic fire a weapon. It isn’t going to happen no matter how much force you use.
Hmm, you asked no questions at all in that. So I can only guess you meant questions from previous posts. During the times I was ignoring you due to what you were saying was irrelevant.
It is clearly obvious, to everyone, that rules can modify the base profile. Furious Charge, GK Halberds, Pfists, Warp Speed, etc.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, you use the modified characteristic. Or are you saying that a Pfist should operate at S4 and not S8?
Yes the BLord has BS0 on his profile... but Snap Shot modifies it to BS1.
The Zoanthrope has BS4, if the Zoan uses Snap Shot, do you still claim to look at the profile value instead of the Snap Shot rule??
Unless specifically stated otherwise, you use the modified characteristic. Or are you saying that a Pfist should operate at S4 and not S8?
Yes the BLord has BS0 on his profile... but Snap Shot modifies it to BS1.
The Zoanthrope has BS4, if the Zoan uses Snap Shot, do you still claim to look at the profile value instead of the Snap Shot rule??
Well, duh. Of course rules can modify base characteristics of models, I never said they could not. But you know what the difference is between a powerfist increasing strength and zoan using his abilities? They have the base characters to actually –use- those abilities/gear. I’ve actually backtracked just a tad and decided that zoans can’t snap shoot, in fact I now believe no psychic powers can be snap shot because they do not follow the rules for ‘normal’ shooting. Snapshot and overwatch both specific normal shooting attacks can be made. And it is supported by the rules that anything that modifies the base shooting phase rules are not normal, thus may not be used for snap shots. Please read above for more clarification of this. And ultimately bringing up other abilities where models have the characteristics to actually use equipment/powers they have is irrelevant to the discussion as broodlord does NOT have the characteristic skill to ever use a shooting attack.
You try saying snapshot gives him BS1 but you have to be able to shoot for the snapshot rule to take effect
The Snap Shot rule does not require this. It is the same as Run, where you do that instead of shooting. Or can Stealers not Run either?
Page 13, midway down right column, bold text. ‘If a model is forced to make snap shots instead of shoot normally…’ This pretty clearly says you have to be shooting normally to be forced to fire snap shots.
Sure, but any unit with a ranged weapon can be nominated to shoot. That is the rule. If you want to assert otherwise, you really need to present rules that say that.
Of COURSE units with ranged weapons can be nominated to shoot, nobody is saying they can’t. Now please provide me a rule that says psychic powers ARE weapons.
First of all, rules are not 'nerfs' and 'buffs', they are just rules. We apply those terms based on some sense of relative comparisons. In this case, Snap Shot is almost always a buff compared to the last edition. Since in almost all cases Snap Shot is used to shoot when you would otherwise not be allowed to. I have pointed this out to you, but you keep ignoring facts when I present them
Of course rules are rules, but there is no doubt that some rules restrict, others allow. Snap shoot restricts (nerfs) the BS skill of models forced to snap shoot instead of shooting normally to a level of BS 1. Kind of similar how overwatch allows (buffs) units by allowing them to make normal shooting attack against units charging them. Rules are always rules, but there are most definitely rules that buff and rules that nerf. It all depends upon what the rule is doing.
Dude, Smite is a weapon. Hence the profile of a weapon. Or are you trying to claim that psychic powers do not count as a weapon? That will come as quite a shock to Zoanthropes, and DoM,and Tyrants, and Changeling, etc.
It will also go against 40K rules from at least 3 editions
It will also go against 40K rules from at least 3 editions
No, it isn’t. And no, psychic powers are not weapons either. You find one instance of a psychic power being listed under the weapons section of any book, model profile and I may reconsider this. You find one place in any book where it says psychic powers ARE weapons. This is why zoans can’t use warp lance for death or glory, psychic powers are NEVER referred to as weapons. They are psychic powers, they are psychic shooting attacks, witchfire, blessings, conjurations, maledictions, beams, novas and maelstroms. Nowhere in any of that does it say they are weapons. They are, however, constantly referred to as powers. Nor are they listed in the books as weapons. They are listed under psychic powers, not with the weapons. Not only are they NOT listed as weapons, they do not even follow the same rules for using a weapon. So you tell me, prove to me, quote me a rule that says ‘psychic powers are weapons.’
So stealers have no ranged weapon and BS 0... and you think they can still declare a shooting attack?
The *only* requirement is the unit must have a ranged weapon. A psychic shooting attack counts as a ranged weapon. BS0 has *no effect* on being able to be nominated to shoot. (unless you can provide an actual rule that says it does.)
I notice that I keep asking you for actual rules to support your positions... and I notice that I am the one you choose to ignore. I have to assume there is a correlation, and you simply are unable to provide rule support for your assertions.
You know, I have to thank you for saying this. Thank you coredump, I really mean that too.
You stated the ‘only requirement’ to shoot is to have a ranged weapon. Broodlords have no ranged weapons, because the book never calls psychic powers weapons. Thus broodlord can’t be nominated to shoot during the shooting phase. You say psychic shooting attacks counts as a ranged weapons. Please quote me the exact phrase and give me the page number. Because the only quote I find anywhere near that is. “Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an assault weapon…” (page 69, top left paragraph third sentence) Huh. I think this does not mean what you seem to think it means. It does not ever say witchfire is a ranged weapon, it doesn’t even say witchfire counts as a weapon. It says it counts are ‘firing’ a ranged weapon. Meaning you have to choose between firing your ranged weapon or using your witchfire. This is supported by the first sentence. ‘…manifested during the psykers shooting phase INSTEAD of firing a weapon.’
If witchfire is a weapon why would they say you manifest it instead of firing a weapon? That would be like saying ‘…manifested during the psykers shooting phase instead of firing a witchfire.’
Doesn’t make much sense does it?
Let me go back and revisit something I didn’t really touch on, or did I? This post is nearly 9 pages in word now so it’s rather difficult to keep everything straight.
I notice that I keep asking you for actual rules to support your positions... and I notice that I am the one you choose to ignore. I have to assume there is a correlation, and you simply are unable to provide rule support for your assertions.
I was ignoring you because you consistently try to reinvent rules to favor your own argument. You twist and turn everything around as much as you can to confuse the topic on hand and make yourself out to appear correct.
1. You continually insist we are speaking of a BS 1 model, broodlord is the focus of this topic and he is clearly not a BS 1 model.
2. Mis-quoting rules such as psychic shooting attacks counting as weapons.
3. You make irrelevant references that have no real bearing on the situation at hand but sound good enough and believable enough to most that it lends you credibility towards your argument. Powerfists not increasing strength and zoans not being able to use their powers, even though all units concerned have the innate ability to use said items is a great example of something irrelevant as we are speaking of a unit that does NOT have that innate ability to use what is in question.
4. You ignore bits and pieces of both rules and other peoples posts and claim they are ignoring you. I honestly think most of this is because you were hurting because I blatantly said I –was- ignoring you. The vast majority of points you were trying to make I had already covered in previous posts and quite frankly, I do not like having to repeat myself endlessly about something. Now granted there are a few instances where something was left unsaid or unclarified but for the most part, this entire post is just a repeat of stuff already said.
5. You continuously imply people are saying things they are not saying or trying to place meaning where there is none. There are several examples of this above.
Well there you go, a nice long post for you to reply to with quotes to the rules and wording of everything concerned. You needn’t bother reply as I will not revisit this topic again as everything that can be said, has been said. Just like I walked away from the discussion on psykers and overwatch, I am now walking away from this one. There is simply no point in trying to discuss anything with you.