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Post by zephoid on Jul 20, 2012 19:54:01 GMT
Im not saying you roll for anything. Im saying you initiate the process and then it instantly fails before the roll is attempted because it sees bs0. You can still attempt however. With snapfire you are counted as bs1 so you dont auto-fail.
You somehow assume that being unable to succeed makes you unable to try. No ability in a field does not mean he is incapable of trying, simply that he is incapable of succeeding with that 0 level skill. You also assume that snapfire MUST nerf a model even though it nowhere states this is so. Because there happen to be situations that GW didnt foresee (gasp!), there are opportunities to have it buff models. RAW it can fire at bs1, RIA they probably never even thought about this or they would have faq'd it.
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Post by gloomfang on Jul 20, 2012 21:06:53 GMT
I was waiting for someone to bring up Zogwart. A character whos rules were written in 4th edition, BEFORE models had to roll to hit with psychic shooting attacks. I'm pretty sure there was something about zero-level abilities in 5th as well, but what about in 4th? I don't have that rulebook so I can't check. The problem he faces now is, BS-0 means he can't USE them.on things that you think will benefit you. I would say there was an even better case for not being able to do it in 5th because it at least said that BS0 couldn't use missile weapons (pg.7 LRB 5th). And for reference (pg50 LRB 5th) the section on Psychic Shooting Attacks has the same exact language as Witchfire. "..counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless otherwise specified)". So the SAME RULE that you say stops both Zogwort and my Broodlord from shooting WAS in 5th and in the 4+ years that we were playing 5th (Orc Codex is 4th Ed.) they never had to clarify that Zogwart is the only one who can use a PSA with BS0 in the FAQ? So it is not a special rule just for Zogwart. OK then point to me in either the Orc Codex or the 4th, 5th or 6th Ed. FAQs where it states that while while Pg. 37 of the Orc Codex says that a Wierdboy MUST use a randomly generated power to use in the shooting phase its OK for Old Zogwort to NOT use one of these shooting powers.Two of the 6 powers are psychic shooting attacks (and technically all Ork powers are Witchfire powers by 6th Ed rules). Oh and his Curse? The special psychic shooting power that only he gets? Also a Witchfire shooting power that automatically hits. Also no mention in the 6th ed Orc FAQ that "Oh by they way Zogwort can use Witchfire powers despite the fact he is BS0 and would not normally be able to use Witchfire powers." So according to you there is a 140pt Orc psyker that can not use ANY of his psych powers (Even the special one that only he has access too) because he is BS0 and can not use Witchfire powers. And they NEVER got around to mention in any FAQ (Even though he has 2 sections in the 6th Ed. Ork FAQ) they he can use his power? Or you can just use Witchfire powers that autohit with a BS0 psyker and it didn't need to be given permission to use it. |
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Post by sac_ld on Jul 20, 2012 22:46:03 GMT
The Ork powers don't follow the same path as all other Psykers. They first make a Psychic Test if passed roll a d6. then they get that power. They don't have Warp Charges, they don't have Psychic Mastery.
To use Ork psykers as a means to explain how a Broodlord would suddenly be able to fire a Wichfire power is a poor argument.
Unrelated, does it not bother anyone that a Shadowseer from Eldar Codex is a Psyker (Mastery Level 0) but is not a psyker at all in the Dark Eldar Codex (despite stating that they are infact psykers with Veil of Tears being there psychic power). Also, while the rule for Veil of Tears did not change in the Dark Eldar FAQ they were changed in the Eldar FAQ, despite the fact they use to do the same thing.
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Post by gloomfang on Jul 20, 2012 23:04:23 GMT
I will just say that the Ork powers are still Witchfire as it applies to all codexs (like warp lance). I will play it however the TOs tell me it is being done.
As for the DE, yes it bothers me because it means that the lvl0 psyker can get hit with all the antipsyker stuff, but the same model on the other side does not. Are they the same pts cost.
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Post by coredump on Jul 21, 2012 2:31:21 GMT
Now are you trying to establish a double standard. You don't check autopasses but you DO check autofails? Sorry, no double standards please. It is either going to be one way or another. This just falls back to you trying to manipulate whatever you can for some perceived advantage. First, I have no idea who you are talking to here, nor what you are trying to say nor its relevance. My apologies if I missed something, perhaps adding a quote or referring to a specific comment may have helped. Second, what I do know, is that I responded to you and refuted a number of your claims. You not only completely ignored my response, you continue to make the same assertions without any supporting information. If you want to take part in a rules discussion, you need to actually take part. And you need to support your assertion with actual rules. No one is ignoring anything, blithely or otherwise; the issue is that the rules for BS0 apply to models *with* BS0. For the purposes of Snap Shot, all models are treated as having BS1. Therefore we need to follow the rules for models with BS1. Similarly, models with BS6 also have special rules (rerolls), but those are also ignored, because they are treated as BS1. Continuing to repeat rules for BS0 models, without explaining why it is relevant to a BS1 model.... is not appolicable. Dude, what are you talking about? As I keep saying, you really need to stop asserting things without rules to support them. Psychic shooting attacks were "subject to all the usual shooting rules". Why do you think the Ork powers *had* to say they hit automatically. Because normally you had to roll to hit. They had the exact same terminology in 4th Ed. And he has been using them just fine in 4E, 5E, and now 6E. Nothing even mentioned in any of the FAQs to address it. Now, as I said before, I can see the merit in saying you can't shoot with BS0, even autohit powers. But even that doesn't apply here. The Blord has **BS1** for the purposes of this shot. And BS1 models are allowed to shoot. Don't be a fool. This does not benefit me, nor do I care if it would or wouldn't. I have argued what I thought was correct regardless of any 'benefits' it would provide. Likewise, your assertion that I am ignoring rules is completely without merit. I am using all applicable rules... like the one that *requires* you treat the BLord as having BS1. Why are you not following that rule?? There is no "supposed" BS1, it is *very* clearly stated (in BOLD even) that every model using Snap Shot is treated as BS1. As for your initial assertion, that he can't choose a target, I already addressed that in the post you chose to completely ignore. You have made up that requirement. There is no such restriction in the rules. None. Nada. Zilch. I can nominate hormagants to shoot according to the rules; they just can't do much. (And would not be able to run, and could only assault the unit they tried to shoot at.) Plus, with that logic, I could add a Prime to the stealers, and then the BLord could shoot. Is that really what you were intending?? But even there you would be wrong. In many cases Snap Shot is a *buff*. Vehicles move more than 6", now can shoot. Move with Heavy weapons, now can shoot. Get Charged, now can shoot. In almost every case, using Snap Shot is a buff.... |
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Post by coredump on Jul 21, 2012 3:16:50 GMT
The Ork powers don't follow the same path as all other Psykers. They first make a Psychic Test if passed roll a d6. then they get that power. They don't have Warp Charges, they don't have Psychic Mastery. All psykers utilize Warp Charges, and all psykers have a Mastery level. The Path is pretty darn similar, with needed adaptations due to using random powers. Otherwise it is pretty similar. I actually agree, but for a different reason. OTOH, some folks think it is important that the BLord can't use a shooting attack, because of BS0, yet Zogwort is clearly using a shooting attack, and is also BS0. I agree it shouldn't matter, because the BLord is treated as BS1... The DE one is still a psyker, and is even 'better', since it is Mastery Level 1, and thus gets 1 (unneeded and useless) Warp Charge each turn. |
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Post by rehkal on Jul 21, 2012 18:52:55 GMT
I will just say that the Ork powers are still Witchfire as it applies to all codexs (like warp lance). I will play it however the TOs tell me it is being done. As for the DE, yes it bothers me because it means that the lvl0 psyker can get hit with all the antipsyker stuff, but the same model on the other side does not. Are they the same pts cost. You may want to have your facts straight before you post Gloom. The only witchfire, psychic shooting attacks, the orks have on their random table. Is Zap and Frazzle. Check the FAQ on it. Old Zogwarts ability, is NOT a witchfire either. Just a psychic power. You somehow assume that being unable to succeed makes you unable to try. No ability in a field does not mean he is incapable of trying, simply that he is incapable of succeeding with that 0 level skill. You also assume that snapfire MUST nerf a model even though it nowhere states this is so. Because there happen to be situations that GW didnt foresee (gasp!), there are opportunities to have it buff models. RAW it can fire at bs1, RIA they probably never even thought about this or they would have faq'd it. Zep, stop posting if you are just going to continue repeating this, it's a waste of time. I've already quoted the zero-level characteristics section SEVERAL times now where they provide an example that shows zero level characteristics means you can make no attempt. The example does not say the model autofails everything, it states he can not attack. And coredump, you are correct. I am, for the most part, ignoring you. What all of you seem to be ignoring is. BS 0 models CAN'T SHOOT. If you can't shoot, you can't be forced to snapshoot and thus supposedly gain BS 1. It's a simple concept you are all ignoring. Models don't go to BS 1 until it's determined you have to snapshoot, if you can't have them target/shoot an enemy then they can't snapshoot. |
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Post by gloomfang on Jul 21, 2012 20:23:54 GMT
I am not wrong on the Ork powers all being Witchfire. All psykic powers used in the shooting phase are Witchfire. All the ork powers are rolled for and used in the shooting phase including ZogwartMs power. Check the Witchfire section again.
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Post by rehkal on Jul 21, 2012 21:11:42 GMT
Gloom, you are misreading the entry.
It says "Witchfire powers are manifested during the psykers shooting phase."
Not.
"All psychic powers used during shooting phase are witchfire."
You may want to pick up the ork codex, FAQ and rulebook and read them all again. The FAQ has a question specifically asking what ork powers are psychic shooting, it only names Zzap and Frazzle. It does NOT say, "All of them, including Old Zogworts special ability."
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Post by TheContortionist on Jul 22, 2012 0:24:56 GMT
you can snapshot at bs1. the people that said no need to quit being followers and be leaders, and also readers.
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Post by Illithid on Jul 22, 2012 0:54:23 GMT
you can snapshot at bs1. the people that said no need to quit being followers and be leaders, and also readers. I could use the same argument for the people clicking yes.... |
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Post by coredump on Jul 22, 2012 1:04:48 GMT
You may want to pick up the ork codex, FAQ and rulebook and read them all again. The FAQ has a question specifically asking what ork powers are psychic shooting, it only names Zzap and Frazzle. It does NOT say, "All of them, including Old Zogworts special ability." Regardless, his point still stands. A psyker with BS0 is using shooting psy attacks.... I guess now you can start ignoring him too. If you start ignoring everyone, you can continue to feel you are right.... |
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Post by rehkal on Jul 22, 2012 1:08:51 GMT
To all the people saying blord is BS 1. I don't know about you but when I look at the blords profile, it says BS 0. Which means blord can't shoot, it's that simple.
You try saying snapshot gives him BS1 but you have to be able to shoot for the snapshot rule to take effect. If you can't shoot, the snapshot modification never takes effect as it is a rule that is applied once the target is chosen.
What is the process to shoot?
Choose unit shooting.
Choose target.
If you can't do the first, the snapshot rule never takes effect.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 22, 2012 1:22:55 GMT
I just obtained the rulebook so I can be of more significant in rules conversations now ^_^.
Has this been covered on the side who says a broodlord cant snapfire during overwatch?
Page 12 "Nominate a unit to shoot: During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with
ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks." and later in overwatch "An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase)..."
Now I know thats not the entire conversation, but it seems from a quick skim of the thread that the people arguing that they can shoot at BS1 are arguing that only if it is forced to shoot, but shooting is always optional based on the rules I am seeing. Am I missing something?
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Post by rehkal on Jul 22, 2012 2:40:47 GMT
@wisdom
witchfire can't be used in overwatch due to witchfire not being a normal shooting attack. snapshot allows any shooting attack which is why everyone seems to thinks it gives BS0 models BS1.
and actually, reading the fluff for overwatch once again hints at snapshots being a nerf, not a buff. "though such shots are often inaccurate (there's not muc time to aim..." etc.
Ha! Wisdom, you bring up a GREAT point. pg. 12. Nominate unit to shoot.
"a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks."
Yet more proof broodlords can't shoot. They don't have ranged weapons.
So stealers have no ranged weapon and BS 0... and you think they can still declare a shooting attack?
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