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Post by rehkal on Jul 20, 2012 3:44:13 GMT
Zero-level characteristics states that models with a 0 or - characteristic has 'no ability whatsoever' in that field. It gives an example of WS-0 saying the model is incapacitated, they are auto-hit and can not strike any blows, thus a model with no attacks cannot attack. If a model has a strength, toughness or wounds of 0... it's dead.
Lets take a good long look at the shooting phase. Whats the first thing you do?
Step one:
You nominate a unit to shoot. Oh damn. I just destroyed your entire argument that broodlord can snapshoot. He can't even be nominated to shoot during the shooting phase due to BS0.
But allow me to go on and further prove it.
Step two:
Choose a target. Note at this point shooting is still considered 'normal' as nothing is affecting anything. But once you choose your target, a flyer in this case. Well, flyers can only be snapshot at by units without skyfire. Snapshot THEN reduces the BS of the shooter to 1 but it ONLY DOES THIS AFTER THE TARGET HAS BEEN DETERMINED.
Broodlord can't even GET to step two because he can never be given a shoot action due to BS0.
Snapshot isn't a buffing ability. It was NEVER intended to make things able to shoot when they normally can't, this is very easy to determine by the text of the snapshot rule.
Snapshot is intended to make it MORE difficult to hit the intended target, that's why it counts BS of models snapshooting to 1.
Trying to use it as a buff is a cheat.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 20, 2012 4:00:05 GMT
the only reason this is even coming up is because there is the aability to take psychic powers in this edition. I don't have the new rulebook, I just go to my friends house bi weekly and read it when I am there, so I cant be of much help... but I am concerned. In 5th edition it described exactly what a characteristic of - meant. it doesnt in this edition? I believe so. But only if required to, it is not a normal option. and I believe even if this is true, when would a broodlord be allowed to use a psychic shooting power during an opponents turn? I think this argument seems pretty pointless because no matter whose right, to my knowledge, you are never going to be able to take advantage of it anyway. ... I really wish it was September already so I could just get the mini rulebook already :/ |
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Post by Jabberwocky on Jul 20, 2012 6:04:43 GMT
You can now use psychic shooting attacks in the enemy turn, for overwatch, because warp charge is replenished every player turn rather than game turn.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 20, 2012 6:23:30 GMT
You can now use psychic shooting attacks in the enemy turn, for overwatch, because warp charge is replenished every player turn rather than game turn. I guess the store owner misread it because he explained to me, when I asked, that they replenish game turns and are expunged before your turn starts again. But regardless, my point was, I dont believe it counts as a weapon carried would it? <---- however, that logic makes me worry about zoanthopes. something, to me, feels like psychic powers are not shooting weapons even when you can manifest them to be such. but I can be wrong. I have only read the rulebook through 4 times and am going by memory |
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Post by ghostly70 on Jul 20, 2012 6:37:55 GMT
ok so not to be mean or anything but can you not try and put into on a new rules conversation if you don't even own the rulebook....its no help at all if we have to explain to you whats going on so you can then speculate on something that you don't know about....not at all helpful
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Post by coredump on Jul 20, 2012 6:43:45 GMT
Surprisingly enough, a snarky post doesn't make you any more correct. Zero-level characteristics states that models with a 0 or - characteristic has 'no ability whatsoever' in that field. I agree with you. But a lvl 1 in that does have an ability. I would give you argument more credence if he was trying to use BS0 to shoot something that 'always hit'; but that is a different thread. Wow... how could I have missed that.... Probably because your assumptions are simply assumptions. No where in that rule does it say to check the *models* before nominating a *unit* to shoot. Nowhere does it say any/all of those models must be able to shoot. I can nominate my Hormagaunts to shoot, that is what the rules state. Then all eligible HGs could shoot. Of course that means nothing happens, and I can't run. But it is perfectly legal. (By your assertion, if I join a prime to that unit, the BLord could then shoot....) Please be more careful. Snap Shot does not 'reduce' your BS, it tells you to treat the model as having BS1 for the purposes of that shot. If it actually said 'reduce' you would have a better case. Not sure why the all-caps were needed, what you said is pretty much a given; and I agree with most everything else. Once you determine a target, then every model that you want to shoot, is treated as having BS1 for that shot. Now you are arguing intent, and you may be right. While perceived intent is a fine basis for a house rule; it is not what the rules say. As I have said before, my preferred house rules would be no snap shots from BLord, and can reroll ineligible powers. But both of those are not what is currently in the rules. (Not sure how I feel about 'autohit' powers) |
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Post by sac_ld on Jul 20, 2012 13:37:40 GMT
You can now use psychic shooting attacks in the enemy turn, for overwatch, because warp charge is replenished every player turn rather than game turn. Witchfire can not be used unless it's the Psyker's Shooting Phase (p.69). So you won't be able to overwatch with them ever. |
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Post by zephoid on Jul 20, 2012 14:04:13 GMT
OK, I have a pretty good solution to this: The people who say NO claim that a unit with a 0 characteristic cannot make a test in that stat ever. However, if i have 5 broodlords on the table, i can reduce Ripper Swarms to 0 ld. There is also a psychic power that now removes fearless and makes the unit take a ld test. According to the NO group's logic, that wont take a leadership test even though required because it cannot take a leadership test with a 0 characteristic. That breaks the game. You are essentially reducing the leadership so far that it is fearless? that makes no sense whatsoever. Units with 0 BS characteristics are incapable of successfully firing a weapon. They can, however, fire one. They have no ability to cause the end goal to occur (wounding). They can roll 1 billion dice but never succeed. However, they can roll 1 billion dice. If the stat is modified (snapshot), they have the ability to fire. RAW you can snap fire, RAI, probably not, however that leaves us with the stupidity of 0 bs wychfire powers which cant be RAI either. rehkal, we had this discussion in another thread. Wytchfire is treated as a weapon based on the description of wytchfire and therefore can be substituted as a weapon. Shooting attack that reroll something or wound on a certain value are just as abnormal as psychic powers. |
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Post by rehkal on Jul 20, 2012 15:02:06 GMT
I will quote myself since you seem to be incapable of reading the book Zep. Not that I honestly think it will do any good. Zero-level characteristics states that models with a 0 or - characteristic has 'no ability whatsoever' in that field. It gives an example of WS-0 saying the model is incapacitated, they are auto-hit and can not strike any blows, thus a model with no attacks cannot attack. If a model has a strength, toughness or wounds of 0... it's dead. LD 0 models will auto break, they can't roll for LD tests because they HAVE NO LEADERSHIP. The book is quite clear on level 0 characteristics. The unit can't shoot due to BS 0, therefore all it can do during the shooting phase is run. I have never argued that witchfire does not count as firing a weapon. But that does not make it a -weapon- itself. "Counting as firing" and "counting as" are two very different things. It is a psychic attack, not a weapon. That is why it's found listed under psychic powers, not with the weapons. @wisdom Warp charges recharge every phase of every players turn, this way your units may use powers that specify they can be used during the opponents turn. There really isn't anything in the book that allows you to manifest witchfire during the opponents turn. Not even overwatch allows it as witchfire is not a normal shooting attack. Snapfire specifically allows any shooting attack, thus witchfire is allowed for that. As someone pointed out, the rules for witchfire says it is used during the psykers shooting phase. And as you said witchfire/psychic shooting attacks are not weapons, they are psychic powers. |
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Post by zephoid on Jul 20, 2012 16:13:33 GMT
So you are taking the side that a 0 level stat auto-fail. However, that represents attempting and failing which means the attempt is possible. If the attempt is possible, then you can initiate the attempt, have the stat modified to 1, then possibly succeed. If they are unable to take a check based on that skill, then they would be unable to take a ld test. There has to be one method to determine all outcomes of 0 level stats. Either you take the check but have no ability to succeed, or you cannot take the check at all meaning no outcome can be determined (you cant fire, but you also couldnt take that ld check)
Actually, i found another instance of a 0 level skill passing. Negative modifiers for losing combat. If i have a 8 ld and lose combat by 8, i have an effective 0 ld. However, double 1s could pass, meaning i still take the check. Therefore, you always can take the check with a 0 level stat, but you have 'no' chance (read, 'no ability') of succeeding unless specified otherwise. Modifying a stat to 1 changes that ability.
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Post by coredump on Jul 20, 2012 17:49:15 GMT
How does Zogwort 'fire' his powers with BS0??
And if we accept that a BS0 model can't shoot, at all... what about a BS1 model?
If the rules say to treat the BLord as BS1, why do you keep bringing up what BS0 models can/can't do?
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 20, 2012 18:15:00 GMT
Isnt there a difference between - and 0?
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Post by sac_ld on Jul 20, 2012 18:47:02 GMT
- and 0 mean the same thing p.3
In regards to a Broodlord being able to Snapfire a Witchfire, I still feel it's a no but if it is ruled to be allowed won't it only ever effect Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures?
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Post by gloomfang on Jul 20, 2012 19:03:50 GMT
How does Zogwort 'fire' his powers with BS0?? And if we accept that a BS0 model can't shoot, at all... what about a BS1 model? If the rules say to treat the BLord as BS1, why do you keep bringing up what BS0 models can/can't do? Zogwort is the ace up my sleeve for any and all discussions on if Blords can use Assail or Shockwave. 3 editions (with FAQs) and he has 3 PSAs that autohit (one that only he gets) and that wonderfull BS0. And no mention ANYWHERE that he can use those powers despite being BS0. And he MUST use one power per shooting phase as well and they are randomly rolled on a d6 unless you default to using his specal shooting PSA that turns ICs to squigs. And yes the Blord can snapfire by RAW, but you can kiss your sportsmanship score away. |
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Post by rehkal on Jul 20, 2012 19:32:07 GMT
Now are you trying to establish a double standard.
You don't check autopasses but you DO check autofails? Sorry, no double standards please. It is either going to be one way or another. This just falls back to you trying to manipulate whatever you can for some perceived advantage.
And again you are blithely ignoring what the book says about zero level characteristics. I won't repeat it again due to your selective perceptions.
I was waiting for someone to bring up Zogwart. A character whos rules were written in 4th edition, BEFORE models had to roll to hit with psychic shooting attacks. I'm pretty sure there was something about zero-level abilities in 5th as well, but what about in 4th? I don't have that rulebook so I can't check. The problem he faces now is, BS-0 means he can't USE them.
This is about broodlord being a BS 0 model, therefore being unable to shoot. In fact, all stealers are BS 0.
And you know, as much as you argue for following the exact wording of rules in other discussions Coredump. You certainly are selectively skipping over those very same rules right now by making your own assumptions. Amazing how you do that on things that you think will benefit you.
Where does it ever say he is BS1? The rule that 'supposedly' grants him that doesn't apply until after the target is chosen. If he can't shoot, he can't choose a target, thus he can never get the 'supposed' BS1. Again, snapshot is a nerf to models shooting, not a buff. Why can I say that snapshot is a nerf? Because models with BS 0 can't shoot and I don't think there are any BS 1 models in the game (I could be mistaken on this). Even emplaced weapons have their own BS of 2. This in mind, all models that snapshoot are having their BS characteristic lowered, oh excuse me their is 'counted as' 1 when they snapshoot.
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