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Post by TheContortionist on Jul 22, 2012 2:42:58 GMT
oh god people just read.
On page 418 it explains Primaris Powers. If you give your broodlord Biomancy it will have the smite Primaris Power. are there any other questions? This is not a debate. he can snapshot this. it is right there in the rules. I would go further into snapshot and all that but you guys have the rule book. just read it.
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Post by killme304 on Jul 22, 2012 2:58:57 GMT
There actually isn't a quote deathnid, or the arguments would have ended long ago.
The first paragraph is what the RAI crowd use to claim BS0 = can't shoot. Technically, RAW does let you snapfire (although people argue that you can't overwatch a witchfyre anyway, different set of arguments for that) at BS1, which would overwrite the BS0 limitation.
I get where both sides are coming from, I'm just waiting out a FAQ at this point.
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Post by arsonfire on Jul 22, 2012 3:23:11 GMT
Why is this a huge argument again? The damage potential of a snap-firing brood lord is so small that I don't really see how it is an issue. And really it shouldn't be getting into that situation in the first place.
There are only two times where the broodlord would be able to use snapfire. When shooting at a flier, or after going to ground. Something has gone very wrong if I find myself in a situation where I need to shoot down a flier with my broodlord, and going to ground with a genestealer squad makes them very sad when they aren't able to move next turn.
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Post by killme304 on Jul 22, 2012 3:41:00 GMT
Ha! Wisdom, you bring up a GREAT point. pg. 12. Nominate unit to shoot. "a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks." Yet more proof broodlords can't shoot. They don't have ranged weapons. So by your logic, a Tyrant with bonesword/lashwhip and scything talons (or better yet, the Swarmlord) can't use witchfire either, and we know that's not how it works. I'm not picking a side, just stating that your logic is wrong. |
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Post by coredump on Jul 22, 2012 4:10:07 GMT
To all the people saying blord is BS 1. I don't know about you but when I look at the blords profile, it says BS 0. Which means blord can't shoot, it's that simple. It is clearly obvious, to everyone, that rules can modify the base profile. Furious Charge, GK Halberds, Pfists, Warp Speed, etc. Unless specifically stated otherwise, you use the modified characteristic. Or are you saying that a Pfist should operate at S4 and not S8? Yes the BLord has BS0 on his profile... but Snap Shot modifies it to BS1. The Zoanthrope has BS4, if the Zoan uses Snap Shot, do you still claim to look at the profile value instead of the Snap Shot rule?? The Snap Shot rule does not require this. It is the same as Run, where you do that instead of shooting. Or can Stealers not Run either? Sure, but any unit with a ranged weapon can be nominated to shoot. That is the rule. If you want to assert otherwise, you really need to present rules that say that. and actually, reading the fluff for overwatch once again hints at snapshots being a nerf, not a buff. "though such shots are often inaccurate (there's not muc time to aim..." etc. First of all, rules are not 'nerfs' and 'buffs', they are just rules. We apply those terms based on some sense of relative comparisons. In this case, Snap Shot is almost always a buff compared to the last edition. Since in almost all cases Snap Shot is used to shoot when you would otherwise not be allowed to. I have pointed this out to you, but you keep ignoring facts when I present them. Dude, Smite is a weapon. Hence the profile of a weapon. Or are you trying to claim that psychic powers do not count as a weapon? That will come as quite a shock to Zoanthropes, and DoM,and Tyrants, and Changeling, etc. It will also go against 40K rules from at least 3 editions. The *only* requirement is the unit must have a ranged weapon. A psychic shooting attack counts as a ranged weapon. BS0 has *no effect* on being able to be nominated to shoot. (unless you can provide an actual rule that says it does.) I notice that I keep asking you for actual rules to support your positions... and I notice that I am the one you choose to ignore. I have to assume there is a correlation, and you simply are unable to provide rule support for your assertions. |
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 22, 2012 4:39:06 GMT
Just lost my laptop abilities so excuse anything that looks weird, auto correct. Also, my posts will no longer be as long as before.
Anyway, cordump: are you suggesting that you may snapfire a lascannon because you want to? I ask this because you compare it to gene stealers and running, but that puts it as an optional rule rather than a rule that applies to situations that replace the normal shooting rules (like you can move and shoot a heavy weapon as a snapshot because the rules tell you to fire it as a snapshot if you want to fire)
Also can you cite where it says that psychic powers count as ranged weapons that the model has, or have you already done that? Or is your argument that it has access to the ability to use the power and therefore "has" something that in its rules counts as a ranged weapon.
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Post by killme304 on Jul 22, 2012 12:09:08 GMT
Also can you cite where it says that psychic powers count as ranged weapons that the model has, or have you already done that? Or is your argument that it has access to the ability to use the power and therefore "has" something that in its rules counts as a ranged weapon. As I pointed out above, this logic can't apply, because if it did, there would be a ton of psychers that actually can't ever use powers GW specifically gave them (Zoanthropes, Swarmlord, ect). Witchfire weapons are treated as assault weapons when you manifest them, it only stands to reason that when you attempt to shoot you are using them as if they were special assault weapons. Again, I'm not arguing the topic of snapfire BS0 or overwatch psychic powers, just pointing out that some of the arguments are a little silly. Why is this a huge argument again? The damage potential of a snap-firing brood lord is so small that I don't really see how it is an issue. And really it shouldn't be getting into that situation in the first place. There are only two times where the broodlord would be able to use snapfire. When shooting at a flier, or after going to ground. Something has gone very wrong if I find myself in a situation where I need to shoot down a flier with my broodlord, and going to ground with a genestealer squad makes them very sad when they aren't able to move next turn. They argue because of Overwatch. With random charge lengths, even one model removed can be the difference between the charge failing, and someone being left hanging in the wind, getting blown away because they didn't make it to the relative safety of combat. One other thing, Coredump has been asking for rules to support the fact that the Broodlord can't ever be forced to snapfire his weapon. Just give him a rules reason and he will more than happily bow out, he isn't unreasonable. So far he has supported rules reasons why it should be able to snapfire, find something that would prevent this in the rule book and he will concede. |
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Post by sac_ld on Jul 22, 2012 16:00:19 GMT
Why is this a huge argument again? The damage potential of a snap-firing brood lord is so small that I don't really see how it is an issue. And really it shouldn't be getting into that situation in the first place. There are only two times where the broodlord would be able to use snapfire. When shooting at a flier, or after going to ground. Something has gone very wrong if I find myself in a situation where I need to shoot down a flier with my broodlord, and going to ground with a genestealer squad makes them very sad when they aren't able to move next turn. They argue because of Overwatch. With random charge lengths, even one model removed can be the difference between the charge failing, and someone being left hanging in the wind, getting blown away because they didn't make it to the relative safety of combat. This is true, unfortunatly p.69 states that Witchfire powers are manifested during the psykers shooting phase. Thus even if the Broodlord can snapfire his Witchfire powers he still can not Overwatch them. |
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Post by rehkal on Jul 22, 2012 17:15:49 GMT
Oh my (please do not swear) god how many times do I have to say it? 'counting as firing' and 'counting as' are two VERY DIFFERENT THINGS. 'counting as firing' does NOT MAKE WITCHFIRE A WEAPON. Got it? Get the idea that witchfire is a weapon out of your heads because it isn't. It never has been, it never will be. Witchfire is simply a specific type of psychic power that manifests as a shooting attack. NOT A WEAPON. Otherwise witchfire would be listed in the weapons sections of the book and profiles, not under the psychic powers. oh god people just read. On page 418 it explains Primaris Powers. If you give your broodlord Biomancy it will have the smite Primaris Power. are there any other questions? This is not a debate. he can snapshot this. it is right there in the rules. I would go further into snapshot and all that but you guys have the rule book. just read it. Wrong... and right. You can give him the power all you want, he still can't use it due to BS 0. Read page three under zero-level charteristics. One other thing, Coredump has been asking for rules to support the fact that the Broodlord can't ever be forced to snapfire his weapon. Just give him a rules reason and he will more than happily bow out, he isn't unreasonable. So far he has supported rules reasons why it should be able to snapfire, find something that would prevent this in the rule book and he will concede. I've already given the rules for it, I've actually repeated myself on it repeatedly at this point. Want me to quote them all? I say he can't. Autohit witchfire maybe, snap shot anything that requires a to hit roll definitely not though. The book is quite clear on zero level characteristics. "...they have NO ABILITY WHATSOEVER in that field..." An example is given of WS 0. It says the model is incapacitated.. that it canNOT strike any blows. Zero-level characteristics states that models with a 0 or - characteristic has 'no ability whatsoever' in that field. It gives an example of WS-0 saying the model is incapacitated, they are auto-hit and can not strike any blows, thus a model with no attacks cannot attack. If a model has a strength, toughness or wounds of 0... it's dead. Lets take a good long look at the shooting phase. Whats the first thing you do? Step one: You nominate a unit to shoot. Oh damn. I just destroyed your entire argument that broodlord can snapshoot. He can't even be nominated to shoot during the shooting phase due to BS0. What all of you seem to be ignoring is. BS 0 models CAN'T SHOOT. If you can't shoot, you can't be forced to snapshoot and thus supposedly gain BS 1. It's a simple concept you are all ignoring. Models don't go to BS 1 until it's determined you have to snapshoot, if you can't have them target/shoot an enemy then they can't snapshoot. What is the process to shoot? Choose unit shooting. Choose target. If you can't do the first, the snapshot rule never takes effect. The problem with coredump is he's ignoring the fact that BS 0 doesn't allow the model to shoot in the first place. Lets take a closer look at page 13, snap shooting. "if a model is forced to make snap shots rather than shoot normally..." Broodlord can't shoot normally thanks to BS 0. Again, he can't snap shoot because he can't shoot normally. Hence why I am mostly ignoring coredump at this point, no point in arguing with someone that is going to ignore what I say anyway. He just can't accept that BS 0 models can't shoot. page 3. zero-level characteristics. You want rules? There you go. For the 10th or so time. |
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Post by coredump on Jul 22, 2012 18:26:17 GMT
Now you are flat out Lying! Yes, lying. Not a difference of opinion, you are just plain lying.
I have not ignored that, in fact I have addressed it specifically. You have just chosen to completely ignore it. The fact that you are afraid to address the points I have brought up, does not mean I am ignoring anything.
I will address this *again*, and lets see if you accuse me of 'ignoring' it again....
If you shoot at a flyer, you are forced to Snap Shot instead of shooting normally. It does not matter if you can actually shoot or not.
It is like a sign saying "No Swimming", means swimming is banned, it doesn't matter if you *can* swim or not.
Similarly, look at Run. You do that 'instead of shooting'; again, it doesn't matter if you can actually shoot or not.
Following your assertions, Stealers can't Run either.
There are units that can do things in the Assault phase, 'instead of assaulting'; even if there is no one to assault, they can still do those things.
When things trigger off of a restriction, the *restriction* is the only thing that matters, not if you were affected by the restriction.
That, and you keep making assertions without any rule support...and I keep asking you for evidence...but I am sure thats not why you are ignoring me... that must just be a coincidence.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 22, 2012 19:25:58 GMT
Killme304, that is an excellent point.
Under the logic of the one who is citing the rules for shooting, they are simotaniously sayin zoabthropes can't shoot ever because they don't have a shooting weapon.
How does a zoanthrope shoot without having any ranged weapons?
If you think the logic is folly, read step one in shooting, this quote was referring to that, correct?
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Post by rehkal on Jul 23, 2012 3:20:49 GMT
"If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purposes of those shots." (p.13, bolded text, Snap Shots, Rulebook) A model needs to be able to shoot normally if it is to be forced to take Snap Shots. It's that "forced...rather than shoot normally" that establishes this. I think nurglitch probably put it best. If broodlord can't shoot 'normally' then he can't be forced to snap shoot. BS 0 means broodlord can't shoot, thus no normal shooting. Even you coredump, have said snap shooting isn't normal. I believe so. But only if required to, it is not a normal option. @wisdom How does a zoanthrope shoot without having any ranged weapons? If you think the logic is folly, read step one in shooting, this quote was referring to that, correct? There is nothing wrong with my logic. And zoans can use their witchfire quite easily actually. You announce your zoan will shoot witchfire and follow the steps to use a psychic power instead of shooting. The witchfire process is a complete replacement of the shooting phase process. The big difference is zoans have a BS skill to use it, blord doesn't. As using witchfire isn't considered 'normal', it can't be snapfired or used for overwatch. Same with running. Trying to say 'how does one use witchfire/running when they have no ranged weapon' is worthless because running and witchfire simply ignores the steps to shoot. |
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 23, 2012 3:56:06 GMT
I didn't question you logic. I questioned you questioning mine  I don't remember witch fire replacing normal shooting procedure, though. |
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Post by coredump on Jul 23, 2012 5:52:42 GMT
And once again, Rehkal posts while avoiding any of the questions I pose to him
Once again, posts without supplying the rule support requested from him.
Once again, posts the exact same statements, while completely ignoring that they have already been addressed... multiple time...
And once again... he continues to fabricate rules without any supporting evidence.
"As using witchfire isn't considered 'normal', it can't be snapfired"
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Post by lcarnagel on Jul 23, 2012 15:22:17 GMT
@wisdom ... Yet more proof broodlords can't shoot. They don't have ranged weapons. So stealers have no ranged weapon and BS 0... and you think they can still declare a shooting attack? So, since BLords don't have ranged weapons, only psychic shooting attacks (like Smite, for example, even if he isn't allowed to shoot it at BS0 he can still have it), and can't attack, how do Zoanthropes shoot in the shooting phase, since they can't be nominated to shoot since they dont have ranged weapons, only psychic shooting attacks. Again, same for the swarmlord or hive tyrants with only melee weapons and probably other models too. Like others have said, you argument completely ignores the fact that it makes other units unable to shoot their psychic attacks. The rulebooks only states it needs a ranged weapon to be nominated to shoot in the shooting phase, not that it can shoot. It then says to choose a target, not once saying you need to be able to shoot to choose a target, just that you must be within range and have LOS to shoot at it. So the fact that it has to snap shot modifies it to BS1 then can hit on a 6. |
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