|
|
Post by hiveoverall on Dec 2, 2017 15:53:14 GMT
Maybe it’s just that my gaming groups don’t know how to fight a melee centric army, or maybe I just roll too well when I throw dices... but the last 5-6 games were way too easy. Against opponents who aren’t tourney level, but still ok players (much like me I think).
I try all sorts of builds and hive fleets, I forbid myself to use even just two fly rants, no more kraken, etc. But I dunno, I’m kind of scared of being the eldar player in 6th and 7th... I mainly played against Astra Militarum and ad Mech, as well as eldars. A Death guard player actually won (me rolling piss poor dices that one for a change), but that is about it...
ive read a few dudes here talking about having won over 5 games in a row, what do you guys think ?
|
|
|
|
Post by hiveminded on Dec 2, 2017 15:56:30 GMT
No. A new codex should feel strong. Two things will happen over time, 1) Opponents will learn how to counter the strengths of the nid codex, and 2) Other indexes will be updated to codexes and our competition will get stronger.
Both of these things will cause the nid codex to feel less strong with time. I feel the power of the codex is about where it should be, considering when it was released.
|
|
|
|
Post by swarm492 on Dec 2, 2017 16:12:31 GMT
No, simply give it time and the waters should even out. Also you can simply build less competitive lists
|
|
|
|
Post by cheesytom1 on Dec 2, 2017 16:16:50 GMT
I think the new Nid codex has made 40k's (at least casual) meta richer and more varied.
Once players catch up and think of counter strategies, there will be more diversity and experimentation around lists (hopefully).
|
|
|
|
Post by nidzy on Dec 2, 2017 16:29:29 GMT
I think maybe your group needs to try harder or you should seek out some opponents that do play that style of list. I am not an amazing 40k playing or anything, but I play against a very competitive group. I don't think this nid book is head and shoulders above the rest of the books in the game, but I think we were hanging out down around the balls for so long that people (the hive included) got used to it.
|
|
|
|
Post by almostmercury on Dec 2, 2017 16:58:34 GMT
The nid codex is the deepest so far, not the most raw powerful. Raw power is CSM.
Chapter approved will shake things up, people will learn how to play against the army, and the depth will mean we still have options.
We’re in a good place and players aren’t used to it. We’ll see what happens in March.
|
|
|
|
Post by omnivore on Dec 2, 2017 16:58:55 GMT
Yeah I've only played 3 games with the new book so far. I've played against AM, AdMech and Nids, all of which have codices. I played Kraken vs AM, Kronos vs Nids, and Behemoth vs AdMech. All have been decisive wins for me. The Nid book is very strong. I don't see any index armies faring well against it at this point, and even armies with books will find us a challenge. Bear in mind that Nid players have had to be very good players in 7th; we had to assiduously play the mission and use every scrap of tactics and guile to pull off wins with what was a weak codex. Now that we have a strong one, we continue to play well and it gets rough for our opponents. Things will even out. Many people are just not ready for what they have to face. Once the codex has been out in the playing world for a bit it will settle down as strategies develop to deal with us. Even so it will be tough though, as we can use different hive fleets to create very different play styles. The only places where I see the potential for OP are the fact that we can, fairly easily, make a Brigade in a 1750 list. Also, the use of multiple, different Hive fleets via detachments is very strong, allowing for us to make a list with essentially no downsides other than not being able to use blanket synapse for the army. With the neutering of IB this is not much of a problem now. Anyway let's all enjoy our moment in the sun! I remember when I was in a league in 7th. People gathered around my table and started consoling me that I played Nids and how sorry they were! Well they're sorry now, albeit not in the way they were then  |
|
|
|
Post by mule on Dec 2, 2017 17:49:48 GMT
We're a different portion of the meta, thus far there hasn't been any swarmy army in 8th edition, the only thing you could say was swarmy would've been conscript spam and that was actually very strong, hence why it was nerfed, all the other armies i've seen don't have the model count we have or the mobility we have. I think a lot of players are still learning tyranid target priority, if you want to see why we're not overpowered feel free to make a carnifex/warrior + gunline list where the army feels more like a space marine army and you'll see how easily players deal with it.
People aren't tailoring their lists to deal with 100 swarmy dudes AND some bigger tougher models. Tyranids shook the meta up and it's going to take a while before people can learn how to build TAC lists to not only deal with us but also be able to deal with some of the eldar shenanigans and CSM. Meta will dictate what people build their lists towards, we might get lucky and be the only viable swarmy army, or there might not be a lot of nid players compared to CSM/Eldar/SM/AM and they might just forgo trying to hard counter our most viable lists.
I also think that the people who have been playing nids when they were weak have learned a lot more about basic mechanics of the game, ie how to abuse cover, where to place your important units so that they can get up the board with minimal losses, simply because that's what they had to do because the rules didn't favour us. Because of that and the restart of a new edition it's got us in a place where I just think nid players are just better players overall, maybe not by much but enough to be a little ahead of the curve.
|
|
|
|
Post by cheesytom1 on Dec 2, 2017 18:32:38 GMT
We're a different portion of the meta, thus far there hasn't been any swarmy army in 8th edition, the only thing you could say was swarmy would've been conscript spam and that was actually very strong, hence why it was nerfed, all the other armies i've seen don't have the model count we have or the mobility we have. I think a lot of players are still learning tyranid target priority, if you want to see why we're not overpowered feel free to make a carnifex/warrior + gunline list where the army feels more like a space marine army and you'll see how easily players deal with it. People aren't tailoring their lists to deal with 100 swarmy dudes AND some bigger tougher models. Tyranids shook the meta up and it's going to take a while before people can learn how to build TAC lists to not only deal with us but also be able to deal with some of the eldar shenanigans and CSM. Meta will dictate what people build their lists towards, we might get lucky and be the only viable swarmy army, or there might not be a lot of nid players compared to CSM/Eldar/SM/AM and they might just forgo trying to hard counter our most viable lists. I also think that the people who have been playing nids when they were weak have learned a lot more about basic mechanics of the game, ie how to abuse cover, where to place your important units so that they can get up the board with minimal losses, simply because that's what they had to do because the rules didn't favour us. Because of that and the restart of a new edition it's got us in a place where I just think nid players are just better players overall, maybe not by much but enough to be a little ahead of the curve. To touch on that, I like to bring lists of 150+ gaunts plus even more genestealers: give my opponent no targets for their heavy weapons. It's thematic and fun, and somewhat viable. Crushes 8th edition deathstars. I don't think this is cheesy or OP, for one, it's thematic to Tyranids. It's just that a lot of players are still learning to build lists towards the potential for swarms in a game that has been deathstar orientated for years running. It encourages balance building. |
|
|
|
Post by bigpig on Dec 2, 2017 18:50:32 GMT
If anything, it feels barely able to approach a top tier army, more like tier 2. Your opponents perhaps lack tactical depth and just don't know how to face a fast melee army and are probably used to making gun lines or relying on simple one two combos (deepstrike then warp time for example) which we have a block for. Give it time
|
|
|
|
Post by wcgnidz on Dec 2, 2017 19:13:36 GMT
When 8th rolled out, almost against any first time opponents(in 8th aka including my old 7th ed regulars), I beat everyone I played like twice in a row until people learned alpha strike and counter-deploying. Then got loss after loss handed to me.
Codex tyranids? Aren't the gimmick one trick pony alpha strike tyranids in early 8th were. The new dex is very strong.
BUT.
You really have to look deeper both at your lists, your meta, and how your opponents play.
I'm gonna to propose a slew of questions not to discredit your point but to try and understand.
What kind of lists do you run? Like shoot me a rough general framework.
What kind of lists do your opponents run?
Is your army construction limited by models? Ex. I can field almost any combination of anything at 2k pts cause I have that many bugs.
Are your opponents restricting their armies based off their models? Or are they proxying whatever insane thing they want?
Do most of your opponents play codex armies?
Do you run genestealers?
Do your opponents run what's arguably for their army, the equivalent of genestealers? Aka the most efficient, likely most lauded unit in their codex? Conscripts? Alpha legion berserkers/cultists? Primaris psykers?
How much codex tyranids have you played since the drop?
I disagree personally that tyranids are too good. But caveat, I've been playing mostly against people trying to bring hard lists. And I've still won, in some cases handily.
Tyranids are now good enough that Chaos/Imperial soup needs to watch their nuts. Tyranids are a new niche in the meta. You won't see people running 3 haruspex's winning left and right. There's still a LOT of units that will stay on the shelf. I mean in an army with 20'something units I don't even think half of them make it in to most of my lists unless I'm actively trying something weird.
As good as I think bugs have gotten, I still don't think they'll be taking the top 3 at any major events with regularity.
But that's my opinion. I'd add I'm unsure if I'd call tyranids "above average" specifically in the context of comparing codex's. But from a strength standpoint, you can't really do that. Allies/mixed detachments are a thing. And even if your opponent doesn't want to use mix and match armies, the reality is when you're weighing in the comparative strength of a faction the allies are a thing. I mean at the NOVA the amount of armies running celestine was just absurd. But that's the nova.
|
|
|
|
Post by valdyr on Dec 2, 2017 21:18:44 GMT
The surprise factor is a huge bonus to us now but it wont last forever as others have said.
I have found that the games I win are the ones I hit early, hit hard, and keep synapse around. The games swing when even a couple small things go wrong or you fail that one charge.
Against melee heavy armies the counter punch has sometimes nearly wiped me.
When things are going well we are hard to beat. When things are starting to go sideways we are in trouble. Once more players embrace strong melee counterpunches and less gunline shooting we are going to have a much tougher go.
Currently id argue that Nids best match up is a static gunline because of how much power we can throw at it and how many ways we have to disrupt their plans.
|
|
|
|
Post by cypheon on Dec 2, 2017 21:34:11 GMT
As many have said since codex dropped...
You have had years of training with a faction that punished you for the tiniest mistake, before your opponent had a chance to notice it.
The codex isn't, overall, that strong. Everyone elses alpha strike happens in the shooting phase, ours happens in the fight phase. Our alpha strike can be interrupted with a brb stratagem to let another unit fight to save itself, others can't. While our melee units are almost insultingly good in melee, they still have to reach melee to make a difference.
Shooting armies typically just need a ruin with a rooftop in their deployment zone to land their alpha strike.
|
|
|
|
Post by endgame422 on Dec 3, 2017 1:20:15 GMT
Frankly I think it's too soon to say where we will end up in the meta.
There are still several codexes too be released including basically ALL of the melee centric armies(BA,SW,Orks,Daemons) which will certainly teach everyone how to deal with melee armies as well as give us a run for the best melee army.
Also we still need the GSC codex because I imagine that "nids soup" with guard in it will end up being very strong.
Plus who knows we are still missing our FAQ/errata so we could be nerfed back to index level by this time tomorrow.
|
|
|
|
Post by nurglitch on Dec 3, 2017 1:31:58 GMT
So I tried out the infestation nodes for the first time on Friday night and all eight were removed from the board in the first turn, depriving me of two units of 10 Genestealers. That left me with 1260pts. I lost, but mainly due to me staggering around bellowing like an idiot. My Tyrant, for example, destroyed three Dark Eldar flyers. Heck, my Venomthropes did a number on them.
|
|
