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Post by Hive Bahamut on Dec 4, 2017 2:54:29 GMT
This is the nature of the beast of being an organic generalist. Orkz will always melee horde better, Militarum will always do shooty horde better. I am happy having more flexibility. That being said, we got a shoot 2x AND a melee 2x, so if that's our consolation then amazing. Those 2 Stratagems will win games.
I've only lost 3 games with our new codex, and 2 of those were to Militarum with a bad matchup (theme vs. 60 T8, 45 T7 W)
My problem is going to be unlearning min/maxing... Been playing with (please do not swear) so long I don't know how to take "soft" intentionally..
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Post by luke1705 on Dec 4, 2017 3:06:40 GMT
The current tier 1 armies (Chaos soup and IG) have solid counters to our top builds. Try not going first against an infiltrating AL cultist blob and an IG blob and see how far our deepstriking or Swarmlord slingshot shenanigans get us, for example. I do think you’re right about this, but I also wonder if a full squad of tunneling double firing Devilgants can fix much of this issue. I did that vs guard where turn 1 I dropped them in and cleared out much of the forward infiltrating units, and turn 2 I was able to get a good place to drop Swarmy and Stealers. Turn 3 saw more Stealers coming in and that was a good thing. Something else I’m considering is that firing plus assault might be enough to clear out whatever units are in the way and then allow us to Overrun plus Adrenaline Surge into something that matters. If only Fire Raptors weren’t a thing. Le sigh. Also, I don’t think we have great answers for Morty, aside from the aforementioned Devilgants, but the -1 to hit is rough, as well as the fact that the Devilgants need to pull double duty (kill screening models and then not die to be able to shoot at Morty before he cleaves the whole squad with 1 swing)
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 4, 2017 3:08:13 GMT
For a moment i read that as 60 T8 units and 45 T7 units, and was like WTF how do you even let that pass in a normal game???
It didnt occur to me that we are an organic Generalist army. What does that even mean for us who are preparing for tournament play? Should we adopt a denial strat or something?
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 4, 2017 3:12:08 GMT
The current tier 1 armies (Chaos soup and IG) have solid counters to our top builds. Try not going first against an infiltrating AL cultist blob and an IG blob and see how far our deepstriking or Swarmlord slingshot shenanigans get us, for example. I do think you’re right about this, but I also wonder if a full squad of tunneling double firing Devilgants can fix much of this issue. I did that vs guard where turn 1 I dropped them in and cleared out much of the forward infiltrating units, and turn 2 I was able to get a good place to drop Swarmy and Stealers. Turn 3 saw more Stealers coming in and that was a good thing. Something else I’m considering is that firing plus assault might be enough to clear out whatever units are in the way and then allow us to Overrun plus Adrenaline Surge into something that matters. If only Fire Raptors weren’t a thing. Le sigh. Also, I don’t think we have great answers for Morty, aside from the aforementioned Devilgants, but the -1 to hit is rough, as well as the fact that the Devilgants need to pull double duty (kill screening models and then not die to be able to shoot at Morty before he cleaves the whole squad with 1 swing) For this in particular i think we should be looking at our Mortal Wound generation strategies. Suffice to say devilgants are a bad choice to shoot at Morty. -1 to hit and 5s to wound is a recipe for disaster. Likewise, Genestealers cant cleave their way through him effectively. Most MCs we have dont have the volume of attack to screw him unless we throw 5 or 6 at him at once (which is Niddy - nothing wrong there). So that makes the ptevalent strategies to MW him down with smites, overwhelm him with insane shooting, or overwhelm him in combat while making him hit last.
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Post by mule on Dec 4, 2017 4:16:12 GMT
The current tier 1 armies (Chaos soup and IG) have solid counters to our top builds. Try not going first against an infiltrating AL cultist blob and an IG blob and see how far our deepstriking or Swarmlord slingshot shenanigans get us, for example. I do think you’re right about this, but I also wonder if a full squad of tunneling double firing Devilgants can fix much of this issue. I did that vs guard where turn 1 I dropped them in and cleared out much of the forward infiltrating units, and turn 2 I was able to get a good place to drop Swarmy and Stealers. Turn 3 saw more Stealers coming in and that was a good thing. Something else I’m considering is that firing plus assault might be enough to clear out whatever units are in the way and then allow us to Overrun plus Adrenaline Surge into something that matters. If only Fire Raptors weren’t a thing. Le sigh. Also, I don’t think we have great answers for Morty, aside from the aforementioned Devilgants, but the -1 to hit is rough, as well as the fact that the Devilgants need to pull double duty (kill screening models and then not die to be able to shoot at Morty before he cleaves the whole squad with 1 swing) Biovores. Focus them on him, you can either stop him from moving entirely because he's a fat model and you can screen him with spore mines, Plus not hitting doesn't matter because we always get a spore mine. Pair that with some smites and the fact that the spores deny his smite, act as kronos points to deny and I figure w'e got a hard time. I'm putting 6 biovores in every list I make just because they're always useful.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 4, 2017 5:44:42 GMT
Morty flies. He goes over the spores.
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Post by hiveoverall on Dec 4, 2017 10:14:39 GMT
Yes he flies, but you can prevent him from landing by covering the part of the board in front of morti with spore mines. But you'd need more than 6 biovores to do that And morty will still be able to "side step" the mines.
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Post by xenomorph85 on Dec 4, 2017 11:22:51 GMT
I've gone 2-1 so far with the codex, playing only practice tournament lists. The loss came to GK/AM~ 4 GM dreadknights, 3 flyers, and mortars.
For reference I went the 16-5 with the Index against other index lists, tournaments and practice included.
I have a big tournament coming up next weekend(no chapter approved changes) that will be the real test of the codex.
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Post by harleyxjguy on Dec 4, 2017 11:51:45 GMT
I am not mad and actually give props for this troll attempt. Tyranid codex not top tier? Maybe not the best Codex? Even this I question. Anyhow, well played Sir. That wasn't a troll, just a direct answer to the OPs question. Pretending, however, to take the moral high road while, at the same time, giving a condescending pat on the head IS trolling. For what its worth, I've been playing nids and on this page for over 10 years. I'm currently the ITC number 1 ranked West coast US nid player and (if that darn TO from the last event finally submits the scores) I'll be the #1 overall nid player with 353pts. Now, that really doesn't mean anything other than I've played against a lot of great players and have experience beyond big fish/small pond. It does, however, give me some perspective on where nids fit right now and the bigger meta. That is not to discount your experience because, even though you've only been here since 6 days after the latest codex release, I'm sure you bring plenty to the table Again to the OP, our army has strong fast melee. We have pyschic counters that can shut down some of the real game turning combos like. We have decent, but not tier 1, shooting. These make for a solid army, and, more importantly right now... they challenge the standard mindset. My point to the OP is that his experience is that his opponents cannot stop him and his army feels overpowered. If his opponents cannot see how to stop him, then they either lack the proper models to field, are in a rock paper scissors matchup with him, or more likely are stuck in a way of playing and don't yet have the tactical depth or experience against the army to see how to stop him. The current tier 1 armies (Chaos soup and IG) have solid counters to our top builds. Try not going first against an infiltrating AL cultist blob and an IG blob and see how far our deepstriking or Swarmlord slingshot shenanigans get us, for example. Their inability to win does not say we are top tier, it says either the OP is really good (and should slow his roll or handicap himself to keep opponents willing to play against him) or his opponents just haven't figure it out yet... but they will. This is a solid dex, and in the hands of good players can win tournaments, but it is not a tier 1 easy button army Would like to take a second to clear up something. I frequent a number of message boards and am known as someone with a good sense of humor. It seems I am to new here to be known for that and elsewhere my post would have been received in the manner it was written. That said imo a codex that can win tournaments regularly should be considered tier one. I feel the Tyranid codex can and will win and make a difference to both the tournament and casual meta.
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Post by Bribri on Dec 4, 2017 12:45:02 GMT
That wasn't a troll, just a direct answer to the OPs question. Pretending, however, to take the moral high road while, at the same time, giving a condescending pat on the head IS trolling. For what its worth, I've been playing nids and on this page for over 10 years. I'm currently the ITC number 1 ranked West coast US nid player and (if that darn TO from the last event finally submits the scores) I'll be the #1 overall nid player with 353pts. Now, that really doesn't mean anything other than I've played against a lot of great players and have experience beyond big fish/small pond. It does, however, give me some perspective on where nids fit right now and the bigger meta. That is not to discount your experience because, even though you've only been here since 6 days after the latest codex release, I'm sure you bring plenty to the table Again to the OP, our army has strong fast melee. We have pyschic counters that can shut down some of the real game turning combos like. We have decent, but not tier 1, shooting. These make for a solid army, and, more importantly right now... they challenge the standard mindset. My point to the OP is that his experience is that his opponents cannot stop him and his army feels overpowered. If his opponents cannot see how to stop him, then they either lack the proper models to field, are in a rock paper scissors matchup with him, or more likely are stuck in a way of playing and don't yet have the tactical depth or experience against the army to see how to stop him. The current tier 1 armies (Chaos soup and IG) have solid counters to our top builds. Try not going first against an infiltrating AL cultist blob and an IG blob and see how far our deepstriking or Swarmlord slingshot shenanigans get us, for example. Their inability to win does not say we are top tier, it says either the OP is really good (and should slow his roll or handicap himself to keep opponents willing to play against him) or his opponents just haven't figure it out yet... but they will. This is a solid dex, and in the hands of good players can win tournaments, but it is not a tier 1 easy button army Would like to take a second to clear up something. I frequent a number of message boards and am known as someone with a good sense of humor. It seems I am to new here to be known for that and elsewhere my post would have been received in the manner it was written. That said imo a codex that can win tournaments regularly should be considered tier one. I feel the Tyranid codex can and will win and make a difference to both the tournament and casual meta. Sure thing buddy 😉
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Post by mattblowers on Dec 4, 2017 13:29:56 GMT
This is a solid dex, and in the hands of good players can win tournaments, but it is not a tier 1 easy button army Can you name a codex that is? I think that's an assertion that can't be backed up. We certainly can't claim a tier 1 since we haven't been taking major events. Regular season vs. playoffs. That being said we have far more choices than I can ever remember us having. Our codex is really deep with far more lists that can be dug out of it. I don't think we have really scratched the surface of the potential yet and we still have nearly half of the codexes yet to drop. Yes, it's silly to say we are the top codex and OP already. I still think it's nearly as pointless to declare that we won't win major events at this early stage. Early analysis was that Guard was going to dominate the meta and Chaos Space Marines were a little lacking. We have since seen a big drop off in the performance of Guard in most events and Chaos pushing more lists into the top tables than any other codex. I think Chaos is going to take a big tumble with the hit on malefic lords. At the very least we became a gatekeeper that is going to force people to take certain elements in their army to deal with us, like how we can stop in their tracks the all horde style of armies that were really prominent for a while (cultist spam, brim/plague bearer spam, etc.) That's good enough for me for now.
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Post by luke1705 on Dec 4, 2017 13:48:01 GMT
imo a codex that can win tournaments regularly should be considered tier one. I feel the Tyranid codex can and will win and make a difference to both the tournament and casual meta. I don’t think one GT win is the same thing as saying “can win tournaments regularly”. If it were, our 6th edition codex would have had the capability to “win tournaments regularly” thanks to Sean Nayden and Lictorshame. FYI there’s a reason it was called Lictor shame. It’s because it was shameful for the power codecies/formations to lose to a single CAD Nids army. Of course, Sean is also an exemplary player. Bigpig’s point is simply that Chaos and IG (who are the predominant reigning tournament armies) can do a lot to mess up most Tyranid builds. That’s not to say we can’t win, but to go in with roughly a 50/50 chance of victory against an optimized CSM/IG list is probably still a little more than we can hope for. For example, what do you do against 60 cultists, Magnus, Morty, a Fire Raptor and a squad of double firing oblits? (With the recent drop in price of the fire raptor, this is a totally possible list that will show up at tournaments, though I have to tweak the points IIRC). The big squad of cultists infiltrate and get FNP from a random slaanesh sorcerer. Fire raptor goes to work and gets -2 to hit from the nurgle CSM power. Like I love Nids, and I will try to make them work against top tier lists like that, but I know which list I’d rather have if I wanted to win a GT.
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Post by hiveoverall on Dec 4, 2017 15:17:29 GMT
Yes, it's silly to say we are the top codex and OP already. I still think it's nearly as pointless to declare that we won't win major events at this early stage. Early analysis was that Guard was going to dominate the meta and Chaos Space Marines were a little lacking. We have since seen a big drop off in the performance of Guard in most events and Chaos pushing more lists into the top tables than any other codex. I think Chaos is going to take a big tumble with the hit on malefic lords. I started this thread without being specific enough, sorry guys... I really meant in a casual environment. One without spam and autoincludes everytime everywhere. Again, sorry folks... I for one truly believe that in 8th, no codex will ever be TOO STRONG in a tournament setting, because (hypothetically) every codex will be cancelling out stuff by spamming (if necessary) its 3 good (even if only those 3 are good and the rest trash) units. Now of course some will be stronger than others, and that is a completely different subject. As bigpig said, I think I just need to tone my lists down a second notch for most players in my meta. Until they get their codex and a better grasp of 8th. But many valid arguments about why one could feel they are too strong in casual play, so thanks dudes ! I'll use them if I keep on being called a Bogeyman
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Post by mattblowers on Dec 4, 2017 16:06:30 GMT
As bigpig said, I think I just need to tone my lists down a second notch for most players in my meta. Until they get their codex and a better grasp of 8th. But many valid arguments about why one could feel they are too strong in casual play, so thanks dudes ! I'll use them if I keep on being called a Bogeyman I'm certainly no top tier player though I can hold my own. I'm easily outclassed by the top end of players. I almost always have a unit or 6 of things that most people consider bad or least sub-optimized that I find have a quirky interaction you can exploit. I typically finish 3-2 or 4-1 but almost always knock someone out of the top 8. I play of ton of games against a wide variety of opponents. When I go to a club pickup day I take a couple of lists. One is for fun against top tier players and one is a toned down list with a few units that don't often see table time. I ask my opponent what type of game they are looking for and explain I have a hard list and a "funsies" list with a quirky unit or two because I want to see how they do. They can pick what type of list they want to play. Matching your list to expectations I think is where the problem is, not the inherent strength of our codex. For some 'nid players with limited experience outside of our codex it's an unfamiliar place to be since we have had our work cut out for us no matter what we brought for a long time. Especially against new players I find that I can dial it back to match their level of play. I don't cast certain powers, I play units out of position, I let a key unit of theirs make it to combat when I could have prevented it, etc. Unless they say they want a hard game I'm usually not going to steamroll my opponent. In short, I play to make sure my opponent is having fun. I'm never going to purposefully throw a game, I just can't do it, but I can play in such a way as to keep it close and make myself work hard for it. Anyway, just something to think about. Some people can't bring themselves to ever dial back it all and just pound as hard as they can all the time. I don't need to smash my opponent to feel good about myself and I like to create good will in the game. In the end I'm really enjoying the wide spread of opponents that I get lately and I want to continue to foster community growth. You don't want to be that guy from last edition that only ever played with Eldar scatbikes, wraithknights, and warp spiders or Tau riptide, they couldn't get a game for good reason. It got tiresome and rather boring to play against all the time.
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Post by hiveoverall on Dec 4, 2017 16:48:40 GMT
You totally are throwing the game when you play units out of position, and when you let a key unit of theirs make it to combat when I could have prevented it. Though not casting certain psychic powers is indeed ok I guess. Please don't take this as an accusation, it is by no means one, but I fear that if you do intentially play bad against adults -that don't totally suck at this game or beginners-, you are taking the risk of them feeling humiliated if ever they realise that you are playaing/treating them like they were kids... Hell... Pavements... Good intentions. But I do agree with you, whatever it takes not to be perceived as (because it is all a question of perspective really) THAT GUY WITH THE SCAT BIKES Hopefully I won't need to make as much effort as you do to achieve that !!! "Rare" units (we agree on those) are the way to go for me, I ll be putting on the TT y tyrant guards with crushing claws, my haruspex, my toxicrene, and I'll be forgetting Kraken HF exists ! I'll be forgetting the Hive yrant exists too. That ought to cut it
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