We've been misreading the rules: Revisit the Maleceptor
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Post by nameless on Nov 9, 2014 16:32:21 GMT
I like the rules; he's just too expensive for them. There are RAW arguments on both sides of this discussion. It needs an FAQ. Without an FAQ, this thread will just be a series of circular arguments. Local players/tourneys will need to decide how the rule will be interpretted in their games. So to help with that discussion, let's look at some numbers: Assuming you need to roll to hit: warp dice, | perils %, | odds wounding L9 enemy, | odd wounding L8 enemy | 3 | 7% | 4% | 5% | 4 | 13% | 10% | 12% | 5 | 20% | 16% | 19% |
Personally, I don't think GW would put out a brand new psyker model that has a greater chance of periling itself with its core power than it does harming the enemy. That's a great point, but he also has 3 other powers to choose from every turn. Then again, I wonder how much better he becomes if he DOESN'T have to roll to hit... Honestly, stop. He has 2 other powers. One of those is domination. People keep telling you this and you keep ignoring it. How many powers do you give to zoanthropes?
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Post by Threeshades on Nov 9, 2014 16:32:41 GMT
I like the rules; he's just too expensive for them. There are RAW arguments on both sides of this discussion. It needs an FAQ. Without an FAQ, this thread will just be a series of circular arguments. Local players/tourneys will need to decide how the rule will be interpretted in their games. So to help with that discussion, let's look at some numbers: Assuming you need to roll to hit: warp dice, | perils %, | odds wounding L9 enemy, | odd wounding L8 enemy | 3 | 7% | 4% | 5% | 4 | 13% | 10% | 12% | 5 | 20% | 16% | 19% |
Personally, I don't think GW would put out a brand new psyker model that has a greater chance of periling itself with its core power than it does harming the enemy. That's a great point, but he also has 3 other powers to choose from every turn. Then again, I wonder how much better he becomes if he DOESN'T have to roll to hit... I do wonder where you get the notion that the maleceptor gets 3 other powers beside Overload.
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Post by hiveminded on Nov 9, 2014 16:36:00 GMT
I edited my original post to clarify. The numbers I posted are the chances to land a focused witch fire (3 successes). Sorry, it was late when I posted...should have been more clear. The chances merely to wound (focused or non-focused) would be higher, ranging from 16-30% against L8 and L9 opponents. Still very low.
And the above poster was correct. Since the unit is BS3 (50% hit), these odds of success double if you assume the power does not need to make a to-hit roll.
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Post by Davor on Nov 9, 2014 16:42:15 GMT
I like the rules; he's just too expensive for them. That's a great point, but he also has 3 other powers to choose from every turn. Then again, I wonder how much better he becomes if he DOESN'T have to roll to hit... I do wonder where you get the notion that the maleceptor gets 3 other powers beside Overload. I think he gets the Overload because GW says he does. Since he is Mastry Level 2 and the rules say "roll for his other power S, plural, and they all roll on the same chart he gets the primas power for free as well. So in total 4. I am relearning the rules so could be wrong but that is the way I see it. *edit* If anything if he doesn't get 4, because the rule is a misprint and should be power not powers, he does get 3. Overload, Primas power and one to roll on the chart. Still until an Errata/FAQ it is 4. Only an Errata/FAQ can change misprints, just like in the CSM codex for the Hellbrute. In the North American codex he was 105 points, the Errata/FAQ made it 100. So until then I say he/she/it gets 4 powers. Please correct me where I am wrong or misinformed myself.
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Post by Threeshades on Nov 9, 2014 16:48:50 GMT
Interesting way to see it, but no. The Overload is one of the powers it knows. It's Mastery level 2 so it only generates one more from the hive mind powers. It would have to state explicitly that it knows Overload in addition to its other powers.
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Post by Davor on Nov 9, 2014 17:05:04 GMT
It does say it explicity knows Overload. Quote from WD rules
"A Maleceptor always knows the Psychic Power Overload psychic power. A Maleceptor generates it's remaining powers from the Power of the Hive Mind."
So it explicity states it knows the psychic power Overload, and it generates it's remaining powers (plural).
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Post by hiveminded on Nov 9, 2014 17:15:32 GMT
In my understanding, the Maleceptor gets psychic overload, one randomly generated power from the codex table, and the codex primaris (for a total of three powers).
One power from the codex plus the primaris is two powers from the codex (plural).
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Post by Threeshades on Nov 9, 2014 17:30:33 GMT
It does say it explicity knows Overload. Quote from WD rules "A Maleceptor always knows the Psychic Power Overload psychic power. A Maleceptor generates it's remaining powers from the Power of the Hive Mind." So it explicity states it knows the psychic power Overload, and it generates it's remaining powers (plural). It would have to state explicitly that it knows Overload in addition to its other powers. Emphasis mine
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Post by niloc on Nov 9, 2014 18:32:08 GMT
There are RAW arguments on both sides of this discussion. It needs an FAQ. Without an FAQ, this thread will just be a series of circular arguments. Local players/tourneys will need to decide how the rule will be interpretted in their games. So to help with that discussion, let's look at some numbers: Assuming you need to roll to hit, below are the odds you'd successfully land a focused witchfire: warp dice, | perils %, | L9 enemy, | L8 enemy | 3 | 7% | 4% | 5% | 4 | 13% | 10% | 12% | 5 | 20% | 16% | 19% |
Personally, I don't think GW would put out a brand new psyker model that has a greater chance of periling itself with its core focused witch fire power than it does focusing a wound on the enemy. exactly.
I see now that I need to type out the sentences in particular, verbatim, and highlight and italicize in order to draw clarifications.
its clear that the rules for every power conflict with the rules for wound allocation laid out in the witchfire description for resolving powers with shooting profiles. it is also clear that focused witchfires (and psychic shriek) ignore the targeting restrictions laid out in the same text.
the only way to interpret these rules without having a blatant conflict... as in being told that "saves can be taken as normal" and "no armor or cover saves may be taken" as in the case of psychic overload when compared to the witchfire description. or the rules mentioning targeting the closest unit.... which is superseded by your amount of warp charges. all the rules here conflict. and it is in these conflicting rules that we are told, "...witchfire powers roll to hit"
their implications are unclear, true
but my interpretation does two very important things.
it allows the rules to be read with no conflicts (ergo rules saying two directly opposing things) and makes every other non profiled witchfire, or focused witchfire makes loads more sense with how its written.
example:
Crush -telekinesis-
"Crush is a Focused Witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 2d6. The target model suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result (a result of 11 or 12 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit) with an AP value equal to the result of a separate d6 roll."
if it worked they way you say it worked, its would read
18" s-2d6 ap-1d6 assault 1.
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Post by niloc on Nov 9, 2014 18:38:22 GMT
Long time lurker,first time poster here Just logging in to post what I said when I started this same argument on 4chan with the first pics of the rules out: (Manifesting psychic powers sequence) 5-resolve the psychic power: Assuming the psychic test was passed and the power was not negated by a successful deny the witch test, IT (the power) IS NOW RESOLVED Now the psychic powers gives 2 major informations about the execution of the power: -it is a focussed witchfire -the target must make a ld test, if it is failed it suffer wounds Note that there's no mention of the need of the roll required by the witchfire paragraph to be successful to resolve the rest of psychic power too like it is done instead in differently worded rules that go: "a model/models hit suffer..." Similarly psychic powers like emorrage and others that do not force characteristic tests but inflict direct damage to the target instead are not meant to roll successful rolls to hit to take place since the target (not "a model/models hit")is said to suffer a number of HITS at strength X, AP Y Now these that the target suffers are HITS, not SHOTS (the rulebook use "shot" before the roll to hit and "hit" after, analogically to how it uses "hits" before rolling to wound and "wounds" after the roll) so they do not need to roll to hit since the word "hit" implicitly covers the need to roll to hit like when "wounds" do not need to roll to wound So no (successful) roll to hit required in the end At least this what RAW&RAI point to imho Or am I missing something? P.s. (first post) Hi hive
yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
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Post by Jabberwocky on Nov 9, 2014 18:40:56 GMT
Not really, as the S value would be an * and then there would be the auto-wound clause underneath, like with other unique weapons.
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Post by Davor on Nov 9, 2014 19:21:25 GMT
It does say it explicity knows Overload. Quote from WD rules "A Maleceptor always knows the Psychic Power Overload psychic power. A Maleceptor generates it's remaining powers from the Power of the Hive Mind." So it explicity states it knows the psychic power Overload, and it generates it's remaining powers (plural). It would have to state explicitly that it knows Overload in addition to its other powers. Emphasis mine I agree with you, just playing Devils advocate here now. Problem is, Powers is already pluralized. Unless this is an UK thing where something is singular and is pluralized, the word powers would mean plural as in 2 or more, not a single as in 1. So how come it says powers and not power? If it's a typo, the only way it can be corrected is through an Errata/FAQ just like how the Hellbrute typo was fixed.
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Post by sockhands on Nov 9, 2014 19:35:48 GMT
It does generate two more powers. One random and Dominion, both are from Powers of the Hive Mind.
This exact same logic can easily refer to this.
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Post by nameless on Nov 9, 2014 19:47:53 GMT
look at all other characters who start with a specific power. They don't generate extra.
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Post by tain2002 on Nov 9, 2014 19:52:49 GMT
I interpret it as you get overload + 2 power(S) (as s makes it plural) from the only list we can chose, and then we benifit from the rule (I forget the name) which states that if you choose all powers from the same list you automatically know the primaris power for free. That rule is completely separate so is not taken into account In any other rules wording.
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