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Post by Davor on Nov 9, 2014 20:02:20 GMT
look at all other characters who start with a specific power. They don't generate extra. I can't look at other characters don't have their codex. Not even sure what to look for. I look at my Necron codex, nothing. I look at my Dark Angel codex, not sure what to look for. Can you please explain which ones and what rules? You are onto something good, please don't stop half way and have others proof your point. You want to prove something in a debate you have to provide the proof, not tell others to look for it.
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Post by termagant on Nov 9, 2014 20:28:11 GMT
There's the broodlord who is ML1 and always knows the horror psychic power
If brassangel's interpretation was correct and fixed powers didn't count, the broodlord would have to generate another power BUT there's no discipline written to roll the power on It means that the broodlord can't generate its other power Which would lead to the conclusion that the broodlord can't get dominion because it technically hasn't generated all of its powers from the same discipline But this conclusion contradicts the FAQs that take into consideration the case of a broodlord using dominion
Absurd conclusion=wrong hypothesis (that is brassangel's interpretation)
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Post by Mauler on Nov 9, 2014 20:34:26 GMT
Fun thread! Regarding focussed witchfire; there are no other FocWit (hahaha) powers with a shooting profile. None of them. I don't think they're particularly snowflakey, unfortunately, when it comes to PEWing hostiles from across the board with them as they work the same as normal witchfires when hitting the target. FWF: "Some witchfire powers can pick out models in an enemy unit – these are called focussed witchfire powers. They follow all the normal rules for witchfire, but you can choose the specific model in the target unit that you want the power to affect." The exception is when choosing the target, not executing the power. So... WF: "Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically. The exceptions are Blasts and Templates. Annoyingly Overload still has to roll to hit. What I do think separates FWF hits from normal shooting or basic WF shots is that the wounds are "suffered" by the target exactly like a Perils fail. These aren't wounds allocated from a pool like WF or normal shooting damage, and as such they don't get to be Look Out, Sir!ed as that mechanism applies to allocated wounds, not wounds suffered. Shoot -> To Hit -> To Wound -> Saving Throws -> Allocate Wounds -> LO,S! -> Wounds Suffered -> Remove Casualties. Powers: "In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." Plus... "A Psyker’s entry will usually state how many psychic powers the Psyker has. Where this is not the case, the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level. Each of these powers will need to be generated, as described below." The Maleceptor's entry doesn't specifically state that it has more powers than it's mastery level so we have to rely on the above statement to set the number, which is equal to it's ML. Overload is one, one is randomly generated from our deck, then Dominion is automatically generated as the focus. PS - Hello Termagant
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Post by Mauler on Nov 9, 2014 20:39:12 GMT
look at all other characters who start with a specific power. They don't generate extra. I can't look at other characters don't have their codex. Not even sure what to look for. I look at my Necron codex, nothing. I look at my Dark Angel codex, not sure what to look for. Can you please explain which ones and what rules? You are onto something good, please don't stop half way and have others proof your point. You want to prove something in a debate you have to provide the proof, not tell others to look for it. Ezekiel is the prime example that I know of for the Dark Angels: SPECIAL RULES: Inner Circle (pg 28), Independent Character, Psyker (Mastery Level 3). PSYKER: Ezekiel always knows the Mind Worm psychic power. He may generate two more powers from the Divination, Pyromancy, Telepathy and Telekinesis disciplines.Known powers count towards their ML total. Ezekiel's entry is just better worded than the Maleceptor's. Obviously Jeremy Vetock didn't write it
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Post by daboarder on Nov 9, 2014 20:40:32 GMT
Would you read the bloody rule book.
It tells you quite clearly in generating powers how models with a fixed power work and NEWS FLASH tthey count towards the models maximum power limit (unlike primaris and force) brass angel is just full of (please do not swear) as always
Edit:not direxted at you mauler
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Post by ba56 on Nov 9, 2014 20:53:26 GMT
Here's where I'm at on all this, as to the powers you may take.
Quoting an example from the BRB, "If a psyker has one or more weapons with the Force special rule, that psyker automatically knows the force psychic power IN ADDITION TO any other powers they know."
The wording on Maleceptor's pychic overload "A maleceptor always knows the Psychic Overload psychic power. A Maleceptor generates its REMAINING powers from the Powers of the Hive Mind." almost as if a random roll was removed by being forced to take the default one. weird.
As to the OP, I just re-read the witch fire section, "Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. .... and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons." I know I left out the middle part of the paragraph but that whole paragraph seems to say that all witchfires are shooting attacks with or without a gun profile. Some have it some don't they are all treated as a shooting attacks.
I'd have been inclined to agree with some of your arguement but Beam and Nova witchfire's both say specifically that they forgo a to hit roll even though they are "shooting attacks". Focussed Witchfire does not.
I do agree it's not overly clear, but I generally feel like there's needs to be a rule saying you can, not the rules don't disallow it. Really they just need a FAQ but tbh as written I don't think it's all that confusing apparently it can be though. Irregardless at it's points cost it still wouldnt be all that hot tervigon is tougher, has 2 guns, spawns gaunts you lose 1 mastery I guess but I'm not a fan of overload to begin with. If it was in the low 100's I could see it then.
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Post by Anggul on Nov 9, 2014 20:55:18 GMT
look at all other characters who start with a specific power. They don't generate extra. I can't look at other characters don't have their codex. Not even sure what to look for. I look at my Necron codex, nothing. I look at my Dark Angel codex, not sure what to look for. Can you please explain which ones and what rules? You are onto something good, please don't stop half way and have others proof your point. You want to prove something in a debate you have to provide the proof, not tell others to look for it. Dark Angels were actually the first ones I thought of. Ezekiel has Mind Worm.
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Post by termagant on Nov 9, 2014 21:07:12 GMT
WF: "Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically. we got that witchfires must roll to hit but the point is that said roll to hit is not required to be successful in order to resolve the other part of the power ("the target must pass X characteristic tests or.../the target suffers X hits") if the result of the roll altered the application of the power it would be specified like it is done for other types of rules (that go: "a model hit suffers...) or in the shooting section for shooting weapons: -roll to hit once or roll to hit with a number of dices equal to the number of shots specified under the weapon profile -FOR EVERY SUCCESSFUL ROLL the unit takes a hit that must wound -FOR EVERY SUCCESSFUL ROLL the unit takes a wound yadda yadda and so on instead in the power description we have: "it is a (focussed) witchfire, the target must pass X characteristic tests or.../the target suffers X hits" now, point 5 of [manifesting psychic powers sequence] says that the power is resolved, logically all of its parts are resolved unless one part would negate the application of another, but as I said, it is not done in this case you must roll to hit, but if you fail nothing stops you from resolving the rest of the psychic power too but I'm repeating myself again
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Post by Davor on Nov 9, 2014 21:27:35 GMT
Thanks guys. On rules overload, getting things mixed up again. Hate trying to relearn something all over again.
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Post by almostmercury on Nov 9, 2014 21:39:36 GMT
That whole first paragraph applies to all Witchfires, unless specifically exempted. Yes, it says that "many" have a weapon profile, but then there's a full stop, and nothing to indicate that the rest of the paragraph only applies to the ones with weapon profiles. The only Witchfires that don't roll to hit are Beams, Novas, and those with Blasts or Templates, all of which are specifically exempted. Focused Witchfires are not specifically exempted from rolling to hit, so they still have to. Whether or not they have a weapon profile is irrelevant, that only affects how you determine whether or not it Wounded and what Saves are or are not allowed. Correct. This would be reading as if you are a lawyer.
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Post by nameless on Nov 9, 2014 22:13:51 GMT
look at all other characters who start with a specific power. They don't generate extra. I can't look at other characters don't have their codex. Not even sure what to look for. I look at my Necron codex, nothing. I look at my Dark Angel codex, not sure what to look for. Can you please explain which ones and what rules? You are onto something good, please don't stop half way and have others proof your point. You want to prove something in a debate you have to provide the proof, not tell others to look for it. I'm not going to write out every rule. my point was to look at other characters including zoanthropes. How am I supposed to know what books you have. It's not that hard to figure out.
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Post by coredump on Nov 9, 2014 22:42:35 GMT
Long time lurker,first time poster here Just logging in to post what I said when I started this same argument on 4chan with the first pics of the rules out: (Manifesting psychic powers sequence) 5-resolve the psychic power: Assuming the psychic test was passed and the power was not negated by a successful deny the witch test, IT (the power) IS NOW RESOLVED Now the psychic powers gives 2 major informations about the execution of the power: -it is a focussed witchfire -the target must make a ld test, if it is failed it suffer wounds Note that there's no mention of the need of the roll required by the witchfire paragraph to be successful to resolve the rest of psychic power too like it is done instead in differently worded rules that go: "a model/models hit suffer..." Similarly psychic powers like emorrage and others that do not force characteristic tests but inflict direct damage to the target instead are not meant to roll successful rolls to hit to take place since the target (not "a model/models hit")is said to suffer a number of HITS at strength X, AP Y Now these that the target suffers are HITS, not SHOTS (the rulebook use "shot" before the roll to hit and "hit" after, analogically to how it uses "hits" before rolling to wound and "wounds" after the roll) so they do not need to roll to hit since the word "hit" implicitly covers the need to roll to hit like when "wounds" do not need to roll to wound So no (successful) roll to hit required in the end At least this what RAW&RAI point to imho Or am I missing something? P.s. (first post) Hi hive Hey Termagant, Welcome to The Hive. I have seen this argument before, before addressing it directly, I want to point out that your entire assertion is based on the concept that the rules are written to require a to hit roll.... yet define that roll as meaningless. That seems like quite a stretch.... especially when you also claim that is RAI... They *intentionlly* require a roll that the *intetionally* made meaningless.... I just don't see it. Further, if they did want the roll to be meaningless... why not just clarify that FWF powers don't need to roll to hit? (The said that Novas automatically hit....)
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Post by coredump on Nov 9, 2014 22:54:45 GMT
its clear that the rules for every power conflict with the rules for wound allocation laid out in the witchfire description for resolving powers with shooting profiles. Really... how so? And please give explicit examples, because I don't know of any conflicts... Wait...what?? What rules are in conflict? Please give an actual example instead of talking in vague generalities. um... what directly opposing things...?? Why? Crush is straightforward, there is no conflict. You take a psy test, if you pass you roll to hit, if pass you roll 2d6 and go from there. You are the one requiring it follow the profile template.... there is no conflict if it doesn't. You 'example' is circular... "You don't need to roll to hit with FWF, because if you did they would give crush a profile, since only profiles need To Hit." The rules never distinguish between a profile power and not profile power...only you have made that distinction, and then you use your created distinction to prove there is a difference between them.... huh??
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Post by almostmercury on Nov 9, 2014 23:07:26 GMT
look at all other characters who start with a specific power. They don't generate extra. But their rules text doesn't say "powerS," nameless.
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Post by rehkal on Nov 9, 2014 23:24:39 GMT
Wow, I don't know if this thread is aobut GCs dropping from pods, how many powers the malecepter generates or if it's about rolling to hit overload... it's kind of everywhere.
I do have one thing to say about focused witchfire powers though. Since 40k is a permissive ruleset, where is the rule that specifically allows you to skip the 'roll to hit' part of the witchfire rules? (I say witchfire instead of focused witchfire because the entry for focused says use reg witchfire rules) Give me quotes and page numbers please.
If you can't find something that specifically says "focused witchfire power do not roll to hit" Guess what? You have to roll to hit with them.
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