|
Post by seanster3000 on May 22, 2014 19:19:21 GMT
I would without a doubt still play this game. The biggest thing for me that has made me love this game even more is to embrace the way GW wants their game to be played, and that is casually. Once I stopped keeping track of wins and losses and stop worrying about "net-lists" or what the internet says is the "best units, lists, etc... are" I started to love the game more. I like the random tables and the crazy scenarios that are a part of this game. If I wanted to play a purely competitive game I'd play chess. Yeah I lose and sometimes I lose bad but I am always laughing and have a great time with my friends "forging a narrative."
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 19:53:09 GMT
To be fair, I've had 40k players do this to me at tournaments. ESPECIALLY against other tyranid opponents. Like....just because I didn't run MC spam doesn't mean I don't understand how to play our codex. It means I walked into an environment where I should have predicted the degree of cheese and built a list divorced from fluff or my own personal conceptions of fairness. Also it means I don't own in the case of my most recent tournament, more crones or a skyshield landing pad nor was I willing to spend the money on these. That has a lot more to do with opponent imo. Most wargames have a significant fluff component though I'd agree not as significant in many cases as warhammer's. With those opponents though if you tell them you don't have the models to field that they tend to run out of advice pretty quickly, even if you aren't being honest. That's the thing, though. I feel that GW is specifically trying to support me and other players like me. I surround myself with those players, and it makes the overall experience so much better. There are plenty of other systems more focused on providing a way to get a "fair win" to the game. They run organized events with prizes, and the focus of those events is winning some promotional item, or trophy, or title. They reshuffle rules and pieces in order to balance things, but the fluff / narrative player tends to be treated like an social outcast. "If you're not focused on winning, you're doing it wrong." I appreciate that GW currently promotes the other side of the coin. That's what I wish to support. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using proboards My qualm with this logic on a personal note is the idea that it's difficult to balance the game AND make it fluffy. I disagree that GW is supporting "the other side of the coin" so much as they're supporting "whatever the hell they want" which in my mind doesn't do their own artistic masterpiece justice- I'd say it's closer to them pissing on the 40k bible or at least the altarboy who's ordained to carry it to the altar(but everyone's a critic, it's their vision after all not mine). 80% of the people I play with we play more "normal" non-metagame lists(heck the most competitive I generally get is a flyrant AND a crone). The hobby should be about capitalizing the niche you enjoy. However, the current rules do a GREAT disservice to the fluff and the balancing of the rules(imo). I'm the guy that's cheering on my opponent in fluff terms(AND THE HIVE MIND FALLS SHORT TO THE BRAVE AND FASTIDIOUS MARINES WHO THROUGH TACTICAL GENIUS AND GRIT REPEL THE XENOS SCUM FROM THEIR PLANET) even when having my butt handed to me. But I look at other game systems(look at the warcraft universe for example), or Lord of the Rings(closer relation). The degree of lore/fluff is almost as expansive in either universe. And they're not perfectly balanced either. But from a relative perspective? 40k's attempts at any sort of balance are an atrocity(comparing to other systems). I'm not asking for near perfection, but I see them throw together rules sometimes......like...they get great suggestions on the internet on a daily basis that are both fluffy and fairly balanced. And what do they do, remove themselves from social media? In my view, looking at the game strictly within your view hoses a whole spectrum of other people in the hobby. And I completely agree the tournament cheese should be the minority demographic to pander to, but I disagree that they're the only demographic with legitimate balancing complaints.
|
|
|
Post by seanster3000 on May 22, 2014 20:53:04 GMT
I don't understand the idea that GW just does whatever they want without any thought or care. Every move they make is thought out it just not the same idea that you (the internet) have. All the other games are great in their own right (Warmahordes, Dust, Infinity, Drop Zone Commander, etc.), no question they are more balanced and "play-tested" but the trade off is they lack the depth of options like units and models from 40K do. If GW made their models much more simpler in term of option I'd bet they would be more "balanced" like the internet wants. GW chose to go in a different direction, not for a money grab or to screw their the player base but because they wanted to, they are following a vision they have. They have a grand design for this game and they are sticking to it (good for them).
Nobody is making us buy GW products if you don't want to or can't afford it then don't its that simple. Take a break from the game and when your situation changes 40K will still be there waiting for you. I'm sorry but the forums, blogs, and rumor sites are dominated by the gloom and doom or the competitive players that post a lot of hate (some of its ok, but come on already) it's getting to the point where I am getting tired of reading the pages of GW hate, and the naysayers. I wish they would just move on to another game system already. Look this is just a game of toy soldiers that we all CHOOSE to invest in if the game isn't your cup of tea anymore that's cool there are tons of other great options out there, just think of how it was 10 years ago, it was pretty much just GW.
|
|
|
Post by milkybarnid on May 22, 2014 21:01:44 GMT
If you could rewind time, would you still start 40k?
To be honest, my answer is no I would not start 40k if I got to rewind time, the reason being that the friend that got me into 40k moved away and I barely see him anymore, my other friends don't play. I go to my LGS but most of the people are sort of power gamers, they fill up their list with strong stuff and have one or two units that are still good but not optimal, at least its not full blown. Then they claim they aren't power gamers.
I don't have the ability to move away and dedicating an evening to drive to another location is a no unless I manage the nexy day with a few hours less sleep.
|
|
|
Post by malebranche on May 22, 2014 21:39:28 GMT
I would, but if I knew the treatment nids would get I'd play Necrons or Dark Eldar instead.
I'll come back to this topic once 7th is here.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 22:07:18 GMT
I don't understand the idea that GW just does whatever they want without any thought or care. Every move they make is thought out it just not the same idea that you (the internet) have. All the other games are great in their own right (Warmahordes, Dust, Infinity, Drop Zone Commander, etc.), no question they are more balanced and "play-tested" but the trade off is they lack the depth of options like units and models from 40K do. If GW made their models much more simpler in term of option I'd bet they would be more "balanced" like the internet wants. GW chose to go in a different direction, not for a money grab or to screw their the player base but because they wanted to, they are following a vision they have. They have a grand design for this game and they are sticking to it (good for them). Nobody is making us buy GW products if you don't want to or can't afford it then don't its that simple. Take a break from the game and when your situation changes 40K will still be there waiting for you. I'm sorry but the forums, blogs, and rumor sites are dominated by the gloom and doom or the competitive players that post a lot of hate (some of its ok, but come on already) it's getting to the point where I am getting tired of reading the pages of GW hate, and the naysayers. I wish they would just move on to another game system already. Look this is just a game of toy soldiers that we all CHOOSE to invest in if the game isn't your cup of tea anymore that's cool there are tons of other great options out there, just think of how it was 10 years ago, it was pretty much just GW. I think they have a semblance of direction and idea, I think what they lack is playtesting(which you touched on). You can have depth and balance. The idea those are mutually exclusive is in my mind a bit off base. Yes, I agree it becomes more difficult to pull off in a balanced manner, but they've managed to do it with books before(imo) so the competence exists. I feel like it comes from disappointment in the sense I feel(and I think some others would agree) that they've had better work. And most of us would likely agree we'd prefer products less frequently with more long-term thought(6th edition= shortest lived edition to date). I also question the idea that some of their policies aren't a money grab(ex. tervigon takes nerf when tyrannofex becomes good to possibly get people to buy more of that kit). And I'd say following your vision is doing what you want, but I might be splitting hairs. I don't think they're exclusively pulling off blatant money grab tactics, but I don't think they aren't using them either(they are a business after all). I agree the internet focuses highly on the metagame to a degree that can get old fast and tedious for the regular reader. Discussing the non-meta would get old pretty quick(imo- short of the art/fanfic section and battlereps), and trust me I was in your boat when the nid dex dropped(less gloom and doom, moar other stuff most of because I felt people were lamenting about specifics in the old book that weren't coming back). I still love 40k, the fluff is phenomenal. The game is often fun. Admittedly I'm criticizing the design choices of their team, I have no illusions about that. I think it'd be outlandish to deny however that there hasn't been excellent fluffy suggestions on the web, mostly from people who are not myself that would help alter some of the balancing to a more unilaterally level field. And sometimes the proposed fixes GW churns out seem like they're way out in left field. All that said the new book coming out is probably not as bad as it seems thus far, but it certainly doesn't bode well. I'd probably still be playing 40k(or at least be reading the novels). But it'd be nice to me to be enjoying some semblance of equally distributed cheddar to enjoy with my whine. I pat GW on the back from sticking to their guns, but people have done that in the past while still being in the wrong(imo). Uber-subjective though. EDIT: I probably knowing what I do now would have invested a bit less in nids and started that space wolves army I always wanted. But when finances open up I'll throw more money at GW when the time is right.
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on May 22, 2014 22:41:10 GMT
Knowing what I know today, I wouldn't have bought any Hive Crones in january. Still one of the best units in the codex. The bar has just dropped a lot lower.
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on May 22, 2014 23:30:22 GMT
Even more than balance, what many of us are asking for from GW is clearly-written Rules. There's no way that the kind of sloppy rules writing they put out helps anyone. The fact that their game needs the kinds of FAQs it does, and that I could spot something like 15 substantial unclear rules in my first read-through of the Nid Dex is just atrocious.
|
|
|
Post by greyseer on May 23, 2014 0:06:18 GMT
My qualm with this logic on a personal note is the idea that it's difficult to balance the game AND make it fluffy. I disagree that GW is supporting "the other side of the coin" so much as they're supporting "whatever the hell they want" which in my mind doesn't do their own artistic masterpiece justice- I'd say it's closer to them pissing on the 40k bible or at least the altarboy who's ordained to carry it to the altar(but everyone's a critic, it's their vision after all not mine). 80% of the people I play with we play more "normal" non-metagame lists(heck the most competitive I generally get is a flyrant AND a crone). The hobby should be about capitalizing the niche you enjoy. However, the current rules do a GREAT disservice to the fluff and the balancing of the rules(imo). I'm the guy that's cheering on my opponent in fluff terms(AND THE HIVE MIND FALLS SHORT TO THE BRAVE AND FASTIDIOUS MARINES WHO THROUGH TACTICAL GENIUS AND GRIT REPEL THE XENOS SCUM FROM THEIR PLANET) even when having my butt handed to me. But I look at other game systems(look at the warcraft universe for example), or Lord of the Rings(closer relation). The degree of lore/fluff is almost as expansive in either universe. And they're not perfectly balanced either. But from a relative perspective? 40k's attempts at any sort of balance are an atrocity(comparing to other systems). I'm not asking for near perfection, but I see them throw together rules sometimes......like...they get great suggestions on the internet on a daily basis that are both fluffy and fairly balanced. And what do they do, remove themselves from social media? In my view, looking at the game strictly within your view hoses a whole spectrum of other people in the hobby. And I completely agree the tournament cheese should be the minority demographic to pander to, but I disagree that they're the only demographic with legitimate balancing complaints. You claim that the internet suggestions are both fluffy and balanced. Have you playtested these suggestions extensively? If not, then isn't that one of the major complaints people levy at GW? They just think up new rules and don't play test them, right? How can untested internet suggestions be balanced and fluffy, while GW's own internally developed rules can't? To create a truly balanced and tight game requires focus. As a game designer, you must choose your audience, and you understand that you will alienate some of your potential audience. The thing with focus is that it inherently means you sacrifice something else. You bring up Warcraft, and it's a great example. Blizzard spends an inordinate amount of effort daily to balance their game and gather changes together for the next upcoming hotfix or patch. This means that lore is sacrificed for better gameplay. Does this upset some people? Certainly. The list of lore changes made in the name of gameplay is extensive. Trust me on that. But this is the half that Blizzard chooses to pursue. And that aside, Blizz still deals with pissed off people on both sides. They're "doing what they want" as much, or more, than GW is. The nature of this beast is that a group of people somewhere is gonna get upset. You can't please everyone all of the time. See, I guarantee you that things done to 40k in the name of balance would remove some things that I truly enjoy. I'm getting legitimately excited for 7th, but I know there are things I'm looking forward to that are central to many of the complaints (Unbound lists, for one). Who are the more important customers? The ones like me, who want to enjoy a more freeform experience? Or the ones like you, who want a tighter balance? Are they "wrong" to choose one path over the other? And who's to say what path is "right?" All I know is that my answer to the OP's question is still the same. I love the current state of this game, and I wouldn't give it up even if I could rewrite history. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using proboards
|
|
|
Post by kenji10000 on May 23, 2014 0:24:10 GMT
Would I still pick up 40k? Probably because of the friends I have made. Would I have invested so heavily in one army? Probably not.
I know it seems like the sky is falling on us right now and I have been trying to stay positive but its getting harder and harder to do so.
|
|
|
Post by stonehorse on May 23, 2014 0:27:12 GMT
I think 7th edition for me is going to be the painting edition. If it has the same shelf life of 6th edition (23 months). I should have all my Tyranids finished by the time 8th edition comes out.
|
|
|
Post by seanster3000 on May 23, 2014 0:47:18 GMT
I don't see that many issues with the new Tyranid codex, maybe I'm playing it wrong or just don't understand. I have more issues with my local gaming groups than I have with GW. I see more people abuse, mis-interpret, and just not follow the rules.
If you took all the "rules issues" with 40K as it stands right now, about half of them are actually true issues the rest are typically people reading to much into a rule (that I will agree could be written a bit better, but they are all not nearly as bad as they are made out to be).
Another issue I have with players is why do you have to spam the "best" units? Why do you have to take Jetseer Councils or Fateweaver re-rollable 2++? I read all the post-tournament results from all the North American tournaments and all the "top lists" are spam lists (I'm sorry). It's like some people read a codex find the 8-10 best units and that's all they field. Most codexes have over 30 units (ours has 34)! You're telling me only about 1/3 have any use, I just don't buy it. All people want to do in 40K anymore is find a list that tables everyone else while they hardly lose models, how is that fun? (I guess it can be fun sometimes)
The day I changed my opinion (on 40K) was they day I played a guy using the current Eldar codex. His list was nothing but Wave Serpents, Wrathblades, Wrathknights, Crimson Hunters, and a Spiritseer. He curb stomped the (please do not swear) out of my army. When I finally popped a couple of this Wave Serpents he got so mad he throw the dice against the wall and was angry. I told him to calm down your winning if anyone should be mad it should be me. At the end of the game he told me next time he won't play that army. He'd bring his Sisters so I had a better chance at winning. I said how about you use the other 20 something units that are in your brand new book to which he replied why they all suck. (I want to do whatever I can to never be like this guy) So I started to embrace the way GW portrays their games in the WDs, fluffy and fun. Since I started playing this way I have enjoyed our codex so much more (sorry to say this but I think its the best one yet).
That's what irritates me with 40K now-a-days. Just because you can field a beat down force that doesn't mean you should. People need to practice self control. I limit myself to 1 Flying Hive Tyrant and 1 Crone. The rest of my army is made up of what I think is cool not what a guy on the internet says I should field to win. Granted I want to win but my goal is not to beat the snot out of my opponent either. The more games I play like this more I enjoy the game and stop caring about winning. I want to have fun, laugh and enjoy a friends company as we fight mythical battles with plastic toys.
Sorry for ranting.
|
|
|
Post by Xantige on May 23, 2014 2:49:32 GMT
I don't see that many issues with the new Tyranid codex, maybe I'm playing it wrong or just don't understand. I have more issues with my local gaming groups than I have with GW. I see more people abuse, mis-interpret, and just not follow the rules. If you took all the "rules issues" with 40K as it stands right now, about half of them are actually true issues the rest are typically people reading to much into a rule (that I will agree could be written a bit better, but they are all not nearly as bad as they are made out to be). Another issue I have with players is why do you have to spam the "best" units? Why do you have to take Jetseer Councils or Fateweaver re-rollable 2++? I read all the post-tournament results from all the North American tournaments and all the "top lists" are spam lists (I'm sorry). It's like some people read a codex find the 8-10 best units and that's all they field. Most codexes have over 30 units (ours has 34)! You're telling me only about 1/3 have any use, I just don't buy it. All people want to do in 40K anymore is find a list that tables everyone else while they hardly lose models, how is that fun? (I guess it can be fun sometimes) The day I changed my opinion (on 40K) was they day I played a guy using the current Eldar codex. His list was nothing but Wave Serpents, Wrathblades, Wrathknights, Crimson Hunters, and a Spiritseer. He curb stomped the (please do not swear) out of my army. When I finally popped a couple of this Wave Serpents he got so mad he throw the dice against the wall and was angry. I told him to calm down your winning if anyone should be mad it should be me. At the end of the game he told me next time he won't play that army. He'd bring his Sisters so I had a better chance at winning. I said how about you use the other 20 something units that are in your brand new book to which he replied why they all suck. (I want to do whatever I can to never be like this guy) So I started to embrace the way GW portrays their games in the WDs, fluffy and fun. Since I started playing this way I have enjoyed our codex so much more (sorry to say this but I think its the best one yet). That's what irritates me with 40K now-a-days. Just because you can field a beat down force that doesn't mean you should. People need to practice self control. I limit myself to 1 Flying Hive Tyrant and 1 Crone. The rest of my army is made up of what I think is cool not what a guy on the internet says I should field to win. Granted I want to win but my goal is not to beat the snot out of my opponent either. The more games I play like this more I enjoy the game and stop caring about winning. I want to have fun, laugh and enjoy a friends company as we fight mythical battles with plastic toys. Sorry for ranting. Thing is, no one goes online to talk about how they're satisfied with something. They come on to voice an opinion, ask a question, show something off, or complain, so instantly you lose all the people satisfied with how things are. Do you ever go on a forum to voice mild satisfaction about something? Problem not. The people on forums are more into the hobby, they have more things to say, or a desire to read things. In terms of 40k, that means rules and gameplay are the big thing to talk about. Sure there's painting and modeling, but you can paint and model however you want. Until GW forces us to repaint all our hormagaunts with blue eyes, there's nothing to really complain about like with rules. Basically, what I'm saying is, online you see a lot of GW-hate and hate for the game because you're looking at a population of gamers who come online to exchange list advice. So of course there will be a lot of that. Hope that made some sense.
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on May 23, 2014 2:59:25 GMT
the guy you used in your example was an asshat. no excuse for that sort of behavior. rest of what you said is pretty...i don't even know the word, honestly. the vast majority of the units in 40k are very poor, both balanced against other choices in their own codex, and against units from other armies. people take good units because *gasp* they perform well. the game does not function such that a company of codex formation SM is going to kill everything it comes across like in the fluff. it simply doesn't, hence 'fluffy' lists generally getting curb stomped by people that take the time to learn and understand the current rules set and other armies and building their list with that knowledge in mind. i'm not sure what the disconnect there is.
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on May 23, 2014 3:01:48 GMT
Thing is, no one goes online to talk about how they're satisfied with something. They come on to voice an opinion, ask a question, show something off, or complain, so instantly you lose all the people satisfied with how things are. Do you ever go on a forum to voice mild satisfaction about something? Problem not. The people on forums are more into the hobby, they have more things to say, or a desire to read things. In terms of 40k, that means rules and gameplay are the big thing to talk about. Sure there's painting and modeling, but you can paint and model however you want. Until GW forces us to repaint all our hormagaunts with blue eyes, there's nothing to really complain about like with rules. Basically, what I'm saying is, online you see a lot of GW-hate and hate for the game because you're looking at a population of gamers who come online to exchange list advice. So of course there will be a lot of that. Hope that made some sense. i'd be singing 40k's praises if it wasn't awful. i've been pretty adamant about trying to keep the speculation from getting out of hand and damping down the hyperbole over this new release...right up until actual scans of the new rules dropped and it became clear that we got hosed pretty solidly, again.
|
|