Official Points change for Biovores 65pts/model.

[gauntlet]

Biovores
1 model 65 pts
2 models 130 pts
3 models 195 pts

I believe this is because all Indirect Fire models throughout all indexes are getting points increases, to address their unforeseen power in 10th Edition.

[gauntlet]

Updated. Munitorum Field Manual ver 1.2 available for download.

[mattblowers]

Jul 5, 2023 17:08:02 GMT gauntlet said:

I believe this is because all Indirect Fire models throughout all indexes are getting points increases, to address their unforeseen power in 10th Edition.

Unforeseen? By whom? I am continually amazed by their inability to recognize obvious issues prior to sending them to print. I don't expect anything else anymore. At least the rules are free so it only gives rules whiplash, not wallet ones too.

[gauntlet]

Did they copy,paste 40% pts increase on all Indirect Fire units or did they carefully consider price increase vs rules change for each unit.

[dkng]

Jul 5, 2023 17:22:52 GMT gauntlet said:

Did they copy,paste 40% pts increase on all Indirect Fire units or did they carefully consider price increase vs rules change for each unit.

Biovore - 40->65 = 62,5%
Desolation Marine 24->34= 41,6%
Nightspinner 140->170 = 21,4%
Rakkatrukk Squiggybuggy = 0%

Bonus - Harpy - No indirect fire 170-230 = 35,2%
Why?

[infornography]

Yeah, that harpy hike was ... absurd.

Not sure Biovores are still worth it. Certainly not for their damage output potential.

[gauntlet]

Jul 5, 2023 17:40:32 GMT dkng said:

Jul 5, 2023 17:22:52 GMT gauntlet said:

Did they copy,paste 40% pts increase on all Indirect Fire units or did they carefully consider price increase vs rules change for each unit.

Biovore - 40->65 = 62,5%
Desolation Marine 24->34= 41,6%
Nightspinner 140->170 = 21,4%
Rakkatrukk Squiggybuggy = 0%

Bonus - Harpy - No indirect fire 170-230 = 35,2%
Why?

So that new Tyranid player loving their Leviathan games box, can be introduced to the GW Ministry of Information announcements.

Noob: "I see, GW announced they changed the points because of complaints about Aedari, Towering, and Indirect Fire."
GW: "That's the excuse we announced, but the unspoken reason is because the index writers don't play Tyarnids so they did not know Spore Mines don't count for Victory Points. But we cannot admit that in an Errata. Welcome the GW Tyranid experience. "

[gauntlet]

It could be argued that points changes are not because of scoring Spore Mines, because they did not touch Sporocyst or Mucolids. But I doubt anybody has seen, used, or mentioned them in any correspondence with GW. Maybe if they has searched for just Spores, instead of Spore Mines.

I hope, for the sake of thematics, we do eventually see rules changes that mines, do not score Victory Points, other than for the damage they cause.

[swarm492]

These changes have nothing to do with indirect fire. It's because of sporemine abuse with the mechanics if the game. Idk why players do this to themselves with GWs modern approach. Abuse it and lose it.

[garg]

Jul 5, 2023 20:37:40 GMT swarm492 said:

These changes have nothing to do with indirect fire. It's because of sporemine abuse with the mechanics if the game. Idk why players do this to themselves with GWs modern approach. Abuse it and lose it.

In casual games sure but competitive play with a mid tier army you should be using whatever the rules writers give you.

It's not like it's some new unit with some weird interactions. They've had a clause to state that no VP can be achieved via spores for at least the last two editions. They made am errata document they could have put it in there instead of lacking up the points
The onus is on gw to add it to

[omnivore]

It cuts both ways too. I made a mucolid in my 1st game which my opponent killed and it got him 4 vp on primary for kill counts.

[swarm492]

Jul 5, 2023 21:08:34 GMT garg said:

Jul 5, 2023 20:37:40 GMT swarm492 said:

These changes have nothing to do with indirect fire. It's because of sporemine abuse with the mechanics if the game. Idk why players do this to themselves with GWs modern approach. Abuse it and lose it.

In casual games sure but competitive play with a mid tier army you should be using whatever the rules writers give you.

It's not like it's some new unit with some weird interactions. They've had a clause to state that no VP can be achieved via spores for at least the last two editions. They made am errata document they could have put it in there instead of lacking up the points
The onus is on gw to add it to

I'm not saying I know how to do it better, but I think letting the meta be in the driver's seat on how GW collects their balancing data is hurtful to the game. I play casually, I don't have time for much else. I understand anything that can be used to give you an edge in a competitive environment will and should be used. Im just kinda shocked at the lack of self awareness on the internet sometimes.

And just because its a competative environment dosent mean that if something is bent to far it wont break. It's because of the meta environment that biovores are now 65pnts, and that dosent even make the biovore special or unique. Their just one more unit in a long storied list of units running for editions now that we, the player base ruined. Remember conscripts? Pepperidge farm's remembers. And I say ruined because the meta isn't going to touch them. And at 65pnts each I don't want to use them either. So now what?.. I'm not sure, but I know it won't involve the biovore.

[gauntlet]

Jul 6, 2023 10:06:23 GMT swarm492 said:

Jul 5, 2023 21:08:34 GMT garg said:

In casual games sure but competitive play with a mid tier army you should be using whatever the rules writers give you.

It's not like it's some new unit with some weird interactions. They've had a clause to state that no VP can be achieved via spores for at least the last two editions. They made am errata document they could have put it in there instead of lacking up the points
The onus is on gw to add it to

I'm not saying I know how to do it better, but I think letting the meta be in the driver's seat on how GW collects their balancing data is hurtful to the game. I play casually, I don't have time for much else. I understand anything that can be used to give you an edge in a competitive environment will and should be used. Im just kinda shocked at the lack of self awareness on the internet sometimes.

And just because its a competative environment dosent mean that if something is bent to far it wont break. It's because of the meta environment that biovores are now 65pnts, and that dosent even make the biovore special or unique. Their just one more unit in a long storied list of units running for editions now that we, the player base ruined. Remember conscripts? Pepperidge farm's remembers. And I say ruined because the meta isn't going to touch them. And at 65pnts each I don't want to use them either. So now what?.. I'm not sure, but I know it won't involve the biovore.

I was writing a comment about not blaming the people who have brought the fault to everyones attention, whilst there is still time to fix things, better instead to put the blame squarely on the cause of the poor rules. And even if adults were to restrain themselves, it does not mean 100,000 kids aren't having disappointing army experiences at home. The problem just goes under the radar. How it's not our job to say sorry to kids, and GW don't care.
But I deleted what turned into a 1000 word essay.

Short version. Don't blame the fans who love the games. A good ruleset is a blessing to competive and casual players equally, it's not one at the expense of the other.

[Iryan]

Jul 5, 2023 20:37:40 GMT swarm492 said:

These changes have nothing to do with indirect fire. It's because of sporemine abuse with the mechanics if the game. Idk why players do this to themselves with GWs modern approach. Abuse it and lose it.

This post and the followup post seem to imply that somehow the players are at fault for GW's bad balancing, and that anyone in here therefore has no right to complain about the points hike of the biovore.

First of all, the only reason biovores would be OP is because GW made them OP. And if so, it is mostly because GW messed up and forgot the "can never score points" clause on the mines. Not the players' fault.

So the unit was then very popular, naturally. But at least judging by what I have read on the forum so far, many people deliberately decided to add the non-scoring clause themselves. So it is not like all, or even most nid players were trying to cheese anything.

And even then. GW just hiked up the points by a ridiculous amount, rather than fixing the oversight that caused the problem in the first place. Now if you want the unit to be worth it at all you basically HAVE to use the cheese. 

So GW made a stupid mistake, then bandaid-fixed it in a stupid way that negatively affects players that were not even exploiting their mistake. And when those affected players complain, you tell them that it is their own fault, rather than GW doing two stupid things in a row. I strongly disagree. Especially considering various other balancing decisions GW could have done but didn't.

I can only hope that when the codex rolls around it will override everything and will somehow magically have spore mines and biovores without loophole rules and with point costs that are fair to what the unit brings to the table. At this point I am unfortunately no longer optimistic.

[infornography]

Yeah, blaming the playerbase for poor balance is silly. The blame clearly sits with GW. They are 100% in the driver's seat.
The META informs the balance because that is what we have to work with. You can't think of a better way because there isn't one. And trust me, it is way better than having the balance be entirely uninformed as it seemingly was some editions.
We are still super early in this edition and a lot is going to change very quickly, but it will be at least until the end of the year before anything resembling reasonable balance returns. These indexes are really rough and I fully expect the balance to get worse before it gets better as the first codecies hit and shake things up even more.

My hope doesn't rest with our codex but further down the road as GW finally gets their stride this edition and starts modifying dataslates to rein in the most egregious issues and the points start to level out. What I want out of our codex is army rules that are not frequently entirely inconsequential (Shadow in the Warp) or actively bad for us (Synapse). If our leadership values were in line with other codecies, but Synapse gave us roll 3 keep 2 plus some bonus depending on the synapse source I think it would be way better, but as long as they keep trying to punish us for being out of synapse instead of reward us for being in it, it is more of a detriment than a bonus.