2023 / 10th Nid Rumors

[No One]

parzaius said:

If they were in a bigger unit, you could drop pod more of them for big shots

If they were in a bigger unit you could drop pod exactly the same amount as current, 6, since t-cyte can carry 20 models with multi wound counting as 3. Fitting 6 in range would already be a challenge though from my experience. Overwatch is a point though, true, but with 12" I think it wouldn't make too much of a difference as to the unit's viability. I think they'll be useful as annoying singles you chuck in strat reserve for some chip/remove cover/secondaries, maybe a one-of advancing up with a walkrant castle purely for cover removal.

Most every good nid in 9e got significant points nerfs at one point or another through the edition (the 30% increase to Pyrovores, for example). That edition is the story of "Here's a strong codex, now enjoy the long and storied history of how everything good got bad over a year and a half and not a single thing got a buff, even the units nobody used for any reason, at any time." I'm purely comparing codex to index, not the final, miserable state Nids were left in.

Codex was absolutely, no question, busted good. While there was definitely overnerfs, and 'what the heck' (poor OOE), comparing post pts increases seems generally far more relevant, though with datasheet changes neither feel super helpful. If you compare to Codex, oh wow we've been nerfed and are merely somewhere between 'too nerfed and bad' to 'still one of the strongest in the game'. Post nerfs, we're somewhere mid tier. Similarly I'm not sure what relevance bringing up zoans from 1-3 editions+ ago. Now, saying that they lost output and defence going from MW bomb to shooting and losing a wound, generally and definitely. But they got a pretty hefty points cut too, so...I'm not sure I'd go quite as far to say undercosted, but strong? Definitely looking like it.

[dkng]

A friend of mine is playing a small tournament today (let’s call it a „test the waters in 10th”) with the following list:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
HQ1: Swarmlord [250pts]
HQ2: Hive Tyrant [250pts]
--- Alien Cunning (30)
--- Monstrous bonesword and lash whip
--- Heavy venom cannon

U1: 3 Tyrant guard [95]
--- Bone cleaver, lash whip and rending claws
U2: 3 Tyrant guard [95]
--- Bone cleaver, lash whip and rending claws

U3: 6 Hive Guard [200]
--- Impaler cannons
U4: 6 Hive Guard [200]
--- Shockcannon
U5: 6 Hive Guard [200]
--- Shockcannon

U6: 3 Zoantropes [90]
U7: 3 Zoantropes [90]
U8: 3 Zoantropes [90]

U9: Maleceptor [165]
U10: Maleceptor [165]

U11: 1 Biovore [40]
U12: 1 Biovore [40]
U13: 1 Pyrovore [30]

END OF ROSTER

His first game will be against my other friend’s Tau.
I’ll let you know later how it went.

[riverzora]

Jun 16, 2023 15:30:18 GMT N.I.B. said:

Jun 16, 2023 15:17:30 GMT riverzora said:

“Some units can contain models that have different keywords. While this is the case, such a unit is considered to have all of the keywords of all of its models, and so is affected by any rule that applies to units with any of those keywords

Shrikes confirmed - just stick a winged prime in a unit of warriors and they all get FLY now.

Source on the quote?

www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/KBvH5h3oY5QREpmG.pdf

Was linked in the points article.

[No One]

Unit Keyword=/=model Keyword. So the unit would have Fly for e.g. being shot by Anti-Fly, but the models themselves wouldn't have Fly. (There's something with poor wording elsewhere, but unless you think drones were supposed to give a unit Fly last ed, I don't think that's going to work: case in point, it's models for "Moving Over Terrain Features When Flying: Models that can Fly
can move over intervening terrain features").

[nidsallday]

Jun 17, 2023 6:42:46 GMT dkng said:

A friend of mine is playing a small tournament today (let’s call it a „test the waters in 10th”) with the following list:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
HQ1: Swarmlord [250pts]
HQ2: Hive Tyrant [250pts]
--- Alien Cunning (30)
--- Monstrous bonesword and lash whip
--- Heavy venom cannon

U1: 3 Tyrant guard [95]
--- Bone cleaver, lash whip and rending claws
U2: 3 Tyrant guard [95]
--- Bone cleaver, lash whip and rending claws

U3: 6 Hive Guard [200]
--- Impaler cannons
U4: 6 Hive Guard [200]
--- Shockcannon
U5: 6 Hive Guard [200]
--- Shockcannon

U6: 3 Zoantropes [90]
U7: 3 Zoantropes [90]
U8: 3 Zoantropes [90]

U9: Maleceptor [165]
U10: Maleceptor [165]

U11: 1 Biovore [40]
U12: 1 Biovore [40]
U13: 1 Pyrovore [30]

END OF ROSTER

His first game will be against my other friend’s Tau.
I’ll let you know later how it went.

looking forward to hearing how it went
but just for my understanding, wouldnt make fexes (carni/tyranno) make more sense then hive guard? hg dont seem super great to me, but maybe im not giving them enough credits ("edit" before even sending: ok, yeah, anti vehicle might be pretty op against tau, that might explain the usage of hg )

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Jun 17, 2023 3:26:12 GMT No One said:

trashcan01 said:

It costs 125 points. Look at that profile. 10W; T9; 3+ save.
125 points. 5+++; projects 6+++.
Point it to a Psyker unit and watch it die. Remember - Psyker Leader gives the whole unit Psyker keyword.

6+++ aura loses a lot of value when we've got a strat for 5+++: seems like it could have a place, but not super chonky on rate and mostly melee unit, at the same cost as haruspex...

I see your point, but I'm more up on the psychophage personally. CP is very limited this edition and the 5+++ only affects one unit. I think a 6+++ aura will really help other units survive and we can use the fnp strat on a single unit that needs to live. I'm currently thinking that a gaunt swarm backed up by zoans, psychophages, a unit of venoms, and a tervigon or two could do some work against non 2++ armies. The most of the army would be stealthed and in cover with 6+ invuls and a 6+ fnp. It's a pick your poison army for your opponent because the rest of the army can still do good work later on.

[No One]

Tyrant ability is the answer to both of the problems you mentioned . If it's a more spread army with a higher unit count of mediocre stuff, then yeah I could see it, but gaunts is also...it's not expensive, but also not the cheapest model and 6+++ isn't the most impactful on 1 wound models (basically useless outside D1): if it's hiding very minimal impact, and if it's not hiding in a gribbly army then it's just AT bait.

[vejby]

Tyrant ability is only once per turn, do it is useful, but limited.

[parzaius]

Jun 17, 2023 5:05:07 GMT No One said:

parzaius said:

If they were in a bigger unit, you could drop pod more of them for big shots

If they were in a bigger unit you could drop pod exactly the same amount as current, 6, since t-cyte can carry 20 models with multi wound counting as 3. Fitting 6 in range would already be a challenge though from my experience. Overwatch is a point though, true, but with 12" I think it wouldn't make too much of a difference as to the unit's viability. I think they'll be useful as annoying singles you chuck in strat reserve for some chip/remove cover/secondaries, maybe a one-of advancing up with a walkrant castle purely for cover removal.

Most every good nid in 9e got significant points nerfs at one point or another through the edition (the 30% increase to Pyrovores, for example). That edition is the story of "Here's a strong codex, now enjoy the long and storied history of how everything good got bad over a year and a half and not a single thing got a buff, even the units nobody used for any reason, at any time." I'm purely comparing codex to index, not the final, miserable state Nids were left in.

Codex was absolutely, no question, busted good. While there was definitely overnerfs, and 'what the heck' (poor OOE), comparing post pts increases seems generally far more relevant, though with datasheet changes neither feel super helpful. If you compare to Codex, oh wow we've been nerfed and are merely somewhere between 'too nerfed and bad' to 'still one of the strongest in the game'. Post nerfs, we're somewhere mid tier. Similarly I'm not sure what relevance bringing up zoans from 1-3 editions+ ago. Now, saying that they lost output and defence going from MW bomb to shooting and losing a wound, generally and definitely. But they got a pretty hefty points cut too, so...I'm not sure I'd go quite as far to say undercosted, but strong? Definitely looking like it.

- Ah, I see that Tyrannocyte is no longer "embark ONE unit," which helps out tremendously. So, you could bring six pyrovores, making the drop pod cost more like +17 pts than +35. Well that's some good news. My point about stratagems and still stands. With anybody being able to shoot on OW, having a block of 6 heavy flamers would've been a tremendous unit to field. 3 just ain't it.

- When all the tremendously good units in one army get nerfed to oblivion and you're left with 'just okay,' that doesn't mean that every other army lost THEIR tremendously good units. So now you're playing with two arms tied behind your back and everybody else that dodged the nerf bolter gets to high step all over you.

- Bringing up the state Zoanthropes used to be in is as relevant as bringing up the state of genestealers 1-7 editions ago. We have these models. They used to work one way and served a specific role. They lost something in 9th and again in 10th. The question is: can they still do the thing we used to use them for? For zoanthropes, the answer is 'yes, kinda' with the caveat that you're going to need more of them because they're far squishier than they were for the last 28 years.

[infornography]

Keep in mind though, we are going from a unit of 6 zoanthropes getting ONE psychic attack to 6 zoanthropes getting 6 psychic attacks!

That is a HUGE difference! if you read their dataslate as the unit getting that attack only once I can see why you would be down on them, but each MODEL gets that attack profile now!

[dkng]

Observations from the game vs Tau:

Zoans are great if somewhat fragile. 3W at T5 is nothing to write home about even with 4++. Their firepower though is very decent. 6++ aura will not come into play often.

Tyrant Guard are tough as nails. T8 compensates for going down to 3+ save. Great bodyguard unit for sure.

Hive Guard are again meh sadly. Both flavours didnt do much even against Tau which was Vehicle heavy - not enough volume of shots on those shock-cannons (even with anti-vehicle 2+) to do much damage due to ap-1. Sad. Those with Impalers are decent at holding the home objective as they can overwatch on 4+ but the damage output is again not great.

Maleceptors are a steal and great at the offensive. Their shooting is decent, melee is decent and defensively they are hard to kill. Great overall.

Biovores… ah yes… scoring Engage with mines is XD nothing more to say. Just hilarious.

Oh and CP generation from Swarmy is golden. Shame he is so pricey but imho well worth it.

[nidsallday]

Jun 17, 2023 14:17:49 GMT dkng said:

Observations from the game vs Tau:

Zoans are great if somewhat fragile. 3W at T5 is nothing to write home about even with 4++. Their firepower though is very decent. 6++ aura will not come into play often.

Tyrant Guard are tough as nails. T8 compensates for going down to 3+ save. Great bodyguard unit for sure.

Hive Guard are again meh sadly. Both flavours didnt do much even against Tau which was Vehicle heavy - not enough volume of shots on those shock-cannons (even with anti-vehicle 2+) to do much damage due to ap-1. Sad. Those with Impalers are decent at holding the home objective as they can overwatch on 4+ but the damage output is again not great.

Maleceptors are a steal and great at the offensive. Their shooting is decent, melee is decent and defensively they are hard to kill. Great overall.

Biovores… ah yes… scoring Engage with mines is XD nothing more to say. Just hilarious.

Oh and CP generation from Swarmy is golden. Shame he is so pricey but imho well worth it.

would you recon 2 squads of 3 pyrovores or 1 tyrannofex would be a viable replacement of the hive guards? im mostly thinking of overwatch for both (pyros or acid fex) as, if i got it right, you can overwatch in move phase and then in charge phase?

[trashcan01]

Jun 17, 2023 14:17:49 GMT dkng said:

Observations from the game vs Tau:
...
Biovores… ah yes… scoring Engage with mines is XD nothing more to say. Just hilarious.
...

Thanks for the report. Silly question incoming - are missions published? If yes - where?

edit: Nvm, I got some help from a good soul

[No One]

nidsallday said:

im mostly thinking of overwatch for both (pyros or acid fex) as, if i got it right, you can overwatch in move phase and then in charge phase?

Overwatch has a once per turn rider: you may be able to get around it with tyrant, but I don't think so.

[piersonsmuppet]

Jun 18, 2023 0:47:47 GMT No One said:

Overwatch has a once per turn rider: you may be able to get around it with tyrant, but I don't think so.

I'd say you're right about the "Once per Turn" preventing the Tyrant ability from reusing Overwatch. However, I think the community at large is probably going to favor the "Index trumps Core" even though there's no explicit permission to dodge a 1/turn rider.