2023 / 10th Nid Rumors

[bumbleb1492]

Jun 16, 2023 20:30:29 GMT N.I.B. said:

So, Carnifex gear is free. Best specc?

Crushing Claws and Venom cannon to leverage all of the re rolls old one eye can give is what I'll be doing. Need something to peel open tanks since we're limited on options.

[infornography]

Jun 16, 2023 20:33:47 GMT bumbleb1492 said:

Jun 16, 2023 20:30:29 GMT N.I.B. said:

So, Carnifex gear is free. Best specc?

Crushing Claws and Venom cannon to leverage all of the re rolls old one eye can give is what I'll be doing. Need something to peel open tanks since we're limited on options.

I agree. Crushing Claws is definitely the way to go and HVC is a good choice with the other arms slot. Both the cannons are decent choices though depending on what you are most likely to face and the scything talons give extra attacks so even that is a viable option.
Don't forget the Free additional Bioplasma and spine banks though. Every C-Fex should be toting between 2 and 3 guns on top of the obligatory crushing claws.

[gauntlet]

Someone mentioned the overcost of the Exocrine. Does that take into account that it gives you Tau Observer ability, not just for one Guided unit, but across your entire army. Reroll the misses could be important for single high value shots like from Zoanthrope or Tyrannofex.

I ask myself, does Exocrine contain Tau genetic material?

6 Zoanthropes vs Rhino
6 focused fire = 3 hits and 1 Lethal Hit
3 hits vs T9 = 2 wounds
3 AP-3 wounds vs Sv3+ = 3 penetrations
3 penetraions = 13.5 wounds

6 Zoanthropes vs Rhino, with Symbiotic Targeting
6 focused fire = 3 hits and 1 Lethal Hit
reroll miss 1s = 1 hit
4 hits vs T9 = 3 wounds
4 AP-3 wounds vs Sv3+ = 4 penetrations
4 penetrations = 18 wounds

Not much of a difference with many shots, but where it's most needed is with Tyrannofex or one shot deals, where it saves you that vital 1CP for use later during the damage reroll.

[omnivore]

You know, I think we may have a shot. Some of the points values are really out of left field (Toxicrine and Trygon) but many of them seem to indicate that we are a quantity over quality design concept. The fact that support like Venomthropes and cheap synapse like Zoanthropes/Warriors are so affordable makes me think that we can be competitive.

[broyston]

Funny, the datasheets say "you can take this" but why wouldn't you take the extra options when they are already costed for, thorax weapons on Raveners, spinemaws on Rippers, bio-plasma and spine banks on Fexes, cannons on Warriors etc? It is simpler, but I'll miss the granularity, and there are still some weapon options that are inherently better and will just get always picked.

[acehilator]

That's true for every army, and we got off lightly (VERY lightly) in that regard. It's such lazy BS that it hurts.

[N.I.B.]

Just threw together my first army list. Feels like I get A LOT of stuff.

[acehilator]

With the Codex coming soon(ish) we should be in a good spot for the first half of this edition I guess, unless your local meta is filled with the busted stuff that needs reworks, like DA. But otherwise, should be fine. Actually looking forward to play against some vanilla SM, Oath + Armor of Contempt is strong, but not OP I feel.

[parzaius]

Everybody's saying it seems like Zoanthropes are undercosted, but consider: going from a 3++ to a 4++ decreased their defensiveness by 50%! Considering they went down in cost by 40%, it's still a net loss. But it's a lot more explicable.

You want inexplicable, take the Pyrovore. It lost:
- 1 attack
- 1 wound
- 1 WS
- 1 melee str
- 3 melee AP
- It's whole anti light infantry shooting option
- 1 ranged AP
- 1 ranged damage

And in exchange it got
+1 Toughness
+1 ranged hit
+ Twin Linked
+ Ignores Cover
+ lingering Ignores Cover

And it's points are exactly the same. That's a hell of a lot of losses for not that many gains. And it STILL didn't get the 1-6 squad size it needs to maximize it's drop pod value. Seems like the vendetta against the Pyrovore at GW is alive and well.

If you really want to look at an undercosted nid unit, just look at the Barbgants. 4 points more than a termagant in exchange for +6" range, d6 shots, blast, Heavy, +1 T, +1 W, +1 Sv, AND an anti-movement effect you can split (until they FAQ THAT feature away in the very first FAQ). That's ludicrous value in a mega undercosted unit. Use it as much as you can now, because I wouldn't be surprised if they go up to 20 points each before very long.

[j0rdan]

There's good, there's bad, but I'm looking at 500 points even for 2 Haruspex and 2 Psychophage and thinking "Gobble gobble core go gobble gobble."

EDIT: Vorecore?

[parzaius]

Jun 17, 2023 1:33:30 GMT j0rdan said:

There's good, there's bad, but I'm looking at 500 points even for 2 Haruspex and 2 Psychophage and thinking "Gobble gobble core go gobble gobble."

EDIT: Vorecore?

I just can't see Psychophage being playable with a single heavy flamer and d6+1 attacks. That randomness is something you'd expect out of Chaos Spawn, not nid melee attacks. He needs static numbers or he needs to be a whole lot cheaper.

[trashcan01]

Jun 17, 2023 1:38:35 GMT parzaius said:

Jun 17, 2023 1:33:30 GMT j0rdan said:

There's good, there's bad, but I'm looking at 500 points even for 2 Haruspex and 2 Psychophage and thinking "Gobble gobble core go gobble gobble."

EDIT: Vorecore?

I just can't see Psychophage being playable with a single heavy flamer and d6+1 attacks. That randomness is something you'd expect out of Chaos Spawn, not nid melee attacks. He needs static numbers or he needs to be a whole lot cheaper.

It costs 125 points.  Look at that profile. 10W; T9; 3+ save.
125 points. 5+++; projects 6+++.
Point it to a Psyker unit and watch it die. Remember - Psyker Leader gives the whole unit Psyker keyword.

[parzaius]

Jun 17, 2023 1:45:18 GMT trashcan01 said:

Jun 17, 2023 1:38:35 GMT parzaius said:

I just can't see Psychophage being playable with a single heavy flamer and d6+1 attacks. That randomness is something you'd expect out of Chaos Spawn, not nid melee attacks. He needs static numbers or he needs to be a whole lot cheaper.

It costs 125 points.  Look at that profile. 10W; T9; 3+ save.
125 points. 5+++; projects 6+++.
Point it to a Psyker unit and watch it die. Remember - Psyker Leader gives the whole unit Psyker keyword.

It's an OC 3 body. It may have Carnifex defensives, but it's damage output is all over the map. It is, at best, going to be a Distraction Carnifex for just about any non-Grey Knights, Non-1k Sons army.

Which, you know, I guess has a role. If your enemy doesn't know that the winning move is to just ignore it, you might flush out some fire.

[No One]

parzaius said:

Everybody's saying it seems like Zoanthropes are undercosted, but consider: going from a 3++ to a 4++ decreased their defensiveness by 50%!

Zoans haven't had a 3++ since our 9e Codex...They did lose a wound, which hits breakpoints especially hard.

You want inexplicable, take the Pyrovore. It lost:

Also lost assault on a short ranged flamer on a slow platform.

And it's points are exactly the same.

...I'm sorry, are you looking at the Codex points, where pyros were busted good? They're 40 9e, down to 30 10e. Seems plenty reasonable, especially with ignores cover granting likely being very good, and free strat reserves.

And it STILL didn't get the 1-6 squad size it needs to maximize it's drop pod value. Seems like the vendetta against the Pyrovore at GW is alive and well.

...What? The limiting factor on t-cyte drop is footprint, not squad size. You can stick 6 in a pod as 3 and 3, or 2 2 2 or whatever, it's not like slots are an issue. But the bigger issue is actually fitting every giant base in 3" of the also giant base and model t-cyte, while also being within 12" range. I've done 6 man pods with Kronos and still sometimes struggled, preferring a 3 and 2. Wouldn't recommend a 6 man pod drop with 12" range, better off with a 3 man and something else I think.

trashcan01 said:

It costs 125 points. Look at that profile. 10W; T9; 3+ save.
125 points. 5+++; projects 6+++.
Point it to a Psyker unit and watch it die. Remember - Psyker Leader gives the whole unit Psyker keyword.

6+++ aura loses a lot of value when we've got a strat for 5+++: seems like it could have a place, but not super chonky on rate and mostly melee unit, at the same cost as haruspex...

[parzaius]

Jun 17, 2023 3:26:12 GMT No One said:

parzaius said:

Everybody's saying it seems like Zoanthropes are undercosted, but consider: going from a 3++ to a 4++ decreased their defensiveness by 50%!

Zoans haven't had a 3++ since our 9e Codex...They did lose a wound, which hits breakpoints especially hard.

You want inexplicable, take the Pyrovore. It lost:

Also lost assault on a short ranged flamer on a slow platform.

And it's points are exactly the same.

...I'm sorry, are you looking at the Codex points, where pyros were busted good? They're 40 9e, down to 30 10e. Seems plenty reasonable, especially with ignores cover granting likely being very good, and free strat reserves.

And it STILL didn't get the 1-6 squad size it needs to maximize it's drop pod value. Seems like the vendetta against the Pyrovore at GW is alive and well.

...What? The limiting factor on t-cyte drop is footprint, not squad size. You can stick 6 in a pod as 3 and 3, or 2 2 2 or whatever, it's not like slots are an issue. But the bigger issue is actually fitting every giant base in 3" of the also giant base and model t-cyte, while also being within 12" range. I've done 6 man pods with Kronos and still sometimes struggled, preferring a 3 and 2. Wouldn't recommend a 6 man pod drop with 12" range, better off with a 3 man and something else I think.

trashcan01 said:

It costs 125 points. Look at that profile. 10W; T9; 3+ save.
125 points. 5+++; projects 6+++.
Point it to a Psyker unit and watch it die. Remember - Psyker Leader gives the whole unit Psyker keyword.

6+++ aura loses a lot of value when we've got a strat for 5+++: seems like it could have a place, but not super chonky on rate and mostly melee unit, at the same cost as haruspex...

- Zoanthropes did lose its 3++ in 9th, yes. It had 3++ since 2nd edition up to that point. In exchange, it got an absolutely dumb amount of Mortal Wounds. Now it's back to having a low/high power mind blast, far closer to its old profile, but without the 3++ AND mortals. Hence: the lower points.
- Yes, that's another way pyrovores got nerfed.
- I am looking at the pyrovore points in the codex, yes. Most every good nid in 9e got significant points nerfs at one point or another through the edition (the 30% increase to Pyrovores, for example). That edition is the story of "Here's a strong codex, now enjoy the long and storied history of how everything good got bad over a year and a half and not a single thing got a buff, even the units nobody used for any reason, at any time." I'm purely comparing codex to index, not the final, miserable state Nids were left in.
- The limiting favor is refering to the Pyrovores, not the drop pods. If they were in a bigger unit, you could drop pod more of them for big shots, solving the issue with their terrible movement and making strats (like overwatch) actually useful for them instead of a waste of CP