People keep saying nids OP ? Are they right ?

[hiveoverall]

Is it getting tiring for you as well to hear people complaining ? Are they right to complain ? Do we really need more nerfs (ok levi probably needs a nerf, perhaps reaper of O, i dunno) ?

Discuss !

Me, its getting to me, i had a 6 month (if not more) break, and I admit it seems a bit easy to win even with that hiatus (well, it was quite easy to win before as well, and end of 2021 it was easy to win with my orks too hah hah, even at tournaments).

It is getting to me but it probably got to druk players the last few years too. To give context to this, I play non levy lists... Levy players how are you coping with the "hate" ?

[dkng]

Army-wise we are strong but are hindered by very weak secondaries which force us to go aggressive so our stats need to be good. Overall I wouldn't say we are overpowered but would agree we are at a strong A-tier faction. Further nerfs are not mandatory - Drukhari, BAs, Harlies, Necron, SoBs and Tau are still reliably beating us. Boosting weaker factions will be better than nerfing the top ones.

[infornography]

From what I have been seeing in tourney results, we are well represented, but not dominating anymore since the last batch of nerfs hit us in the toxin sacs.
I would say if we are due any more nerfs, there are a half dozen other factions that are as well. I agree with dkng, the bottom factions need attention more than the top.

[No One]

We're 7/9 on win% of factions over 50%. A lot of that is our garbage secondaries, but...well, Necrons are one of the strongest armies in the game almost entirely off the strength of their secondaries, so...yeah. Looking at tournaments only though (TiWP) we're top 3 in ratio and top in absolute, so I think that's also other factions being boosted by casual games (e.g. DG have >50%). Mean nid lists can be very mean, and if you dominate on board enough a secondary disparity doesn't matter.

[piersonsmuppet]

We are, and we are only kept in check by those with stronger secondary game than us (a very short list). Nids actually have a very good secondary game once you learn when to choose what. We score 10+ easily on strong choices, and opponents have very little opportunities to deny scoring. Even if we do stumble on secondaries, Nid primary game is even stronger.

The main offender is Levi Warriors, probably dropping full transhuman on synapse and giving Synapse a lesser defensive buff will help fix that problem. I think either -1 to wound or no wound rr’s on synapse will still provide some benefits without blanking some armies method to deal with 18+ warriors.

Reaper is more an internal balance problem, as there have been 2-3 lists without the Reaper that have won GT+ events. So fixing it may not really have much actual impact.

Nid strength is mainly off of undercosted data sheets, so cost increases are in our future.

Edit: Levi gets a lot of hate because it’s played the most and transhuman since gets around the low shot high damage spam currently commonplace. However, Jorm is actually probably the strongest fleet courtesy of a good fleet trait, access to Lurk and Hunt, good fleet power, and an amazing fleet strat.

[nbmraptor]

I've played Nids on and off since 4th Ed, and there were a few editions in between where we weren't the greatest army. I found that I had to play specific builds to even hope to compete. I'm almost happy now to hear people complain when I play my Nids.

[trashcan01]

OP? I don't think so. Above average, for sure. Everything said above stands. It remans to be seen how do we fare among upcoming Codices and their power level.

Aug 31, 2022 15:10:19 GMT piersonsmuppet said:

We are, and we are only kept in check by those with stronger secondary game than us (a very short list). Nids actually have a very good secondary game once you learn when to choose what. We score 10+ easily on strong choices, and opponents have very little opportunities to deny scoring. Even if we do stumble on secondaries, Nid primary game is even stronger.

I would love to read more about secondaries (unless it is Venomthrope killers). Any chance you write a guide/thread somewhere? I've gotten as far as Interrogation/Ritual. The rest is kind of... situational.

[Jbizzy]

I think it's a combination of strong data sheets with some under costed units (expect warriors to go 5ppm for best loadout) and the fact that most people have customer colour schemes allowing us to pick the FotM fleet to maximize those strong data sheets.

[dkng]

You want Warriors to be 3 points cheaper than a Terminator? Nah... Units themselves are not the problem, Leviathan is the problem.

[vejby]

Aug 31, 2022 19:09:51 GMT dkng said:

You want Warriors to be 3 points cheaper than a Terminator? Nah... Units themselves are not the problem, Leviathan is the problem.

Leviathan troop warriors are the problem. Move them to elite but let them keep Obj. Sec. and they are curtailed by Rule of Three and competition for elite slots if you don't want to pay CP for extra detachments under Nephilim. 

GW would probably love if people bought 40+ warriors before they are nerfed, though.

[piersonsmuppet]

Aug 31, 2022 19:09:51 GMT dkng said:

You want Warriors to be 3 points cheaper than a Terminator? Nah... Units themselves are not the problem, Leviathan is the problem.

I don't want Warriors to be 3pts cheaper than Terminators, but they really should be more points when using certain war gear. With the BS/DS loadout, they are objectively better than terminators even before applying Objsec. I think hitting ONLY the unbalanced war gear options is the correct call, ST warriors do not need any adjustments. 3pts for DBS, 2pts for LW/BS, and 2pts for DS is a reasonable adjustment imo. However, they should change AG to be 2PPM instead of the 15pts for the unit. 

Aug 31, 2022 19:40:36 GMT vejby said:

Leviathan troop warriors are the problem. Move them to elite but let them keep Obj. Sec. and they are curtailed by Rule of Three and competition for elite slots if you don't want to pay CP for extra detachments under Nephilim. 

GW would probably love if people bought 40+ warriors before they are nerfed, though.

Except most competitive lists only take 2-3 units of warriors, so the rule of 3 does absolutely nothing. Taking away Objsec would do a ton to make them weaker, especially since SL would become a must take in Warrior lists. That might be too big of a hit to Warrior playability though...

A better non-point cost adjustment for warriors might be to adjust the -1D strat to 2/3CP instead of 1/2. A lot of Warriors power comes from knocking 3D weapons to 2D, making the strat more costly will make warriors less effective as the backbone of an army.

Aug 31, 2022 18:23:58 GMT trashcan01 said:

I would love to read more about secondaries (unless it is Venomthrope killers). Any chance you write a guide/thread somewhere? I've gotten as far as Interrogation/Ritual. The rest is kind of... situational.

I don't own Venomthropes, and may never under the current codex if next year's rumors hold true. No real guide aside from the Leviathan GT list thread I made. I think the situation aspect is what makes secondaries "bad" for Nids, we don't just have 3 you can pick without thinking. However, once you have the experience to pick based on list comp, opponent list comp, mission, and terrain, Nids have pretty nasty secondary game since opponents can't easily guess what we will do until after we announce. I will say that while Engage on all Fronts was a downgrade for most factions in Nephilim, Nids score it pretty easily with most of our good units being durable 3-man or monsters. Having a plan for how to score Nodes/Insight when it can be a good pick is also important imo, they are extremely easy to score when a good pick.

[Jbizzy]

Next years rumor of another reset?

[piersonsmuppet]

Aug 31, 2022 21:46:50 GMT Jbizzy said:

Next years rumor of another reset?

I think they were the mid-2023 10E rumors.

[infornography]

I kinda hope for a hard reset like the transition from 7th to 8th. The past two editions have been SO BLOATED! WAY too many stratagems and objectives to keep straight for more than a faction or two at a time unless this is practically a full time job for you.

[tylertt]

Aug 31, 2022 22:31:05 GMT infornography said:

I kinda hope for a hard reset like the transition from 7th to 8th. The past two editions have been SO BLOATED! WAY too many stratagems and objectives to keep straight for more than a faction or two at a time unless this is practically a full time job for you.

Truth be told, I don't even keep up on anything anymore if it is outside my regular playing group's factions. Going into a tournament (I've only played two this year) I definitely would review the lists but outside of that its so hard to keep up on this. Especially if you have a busy family/work/personal life on top of it all.