Tyranid Points Update and Balance Dataslate

[Master Chief]

Jun 27, 2022 9:23:08 GMT Raven said:

I think access to Adaptive Biology does more to help a walking Hive Tyrant's survivability than the +1 Wound and Blade Parry of the Swarmlord when compared to each other, though of course the Swarmlord can also be Catalyst'd to gain the same benefit.

You're not needing the 5+++. And that is a CP you're spending going from 2 starting CPs to 1 starting CP.

During the shooting phase you cannot be targeted, and in close combat not many things want to be engaged with a Leviathan Swarmlord.

And the Swarmlord is fantastic considering the new Nelhilim starting CPs.

You start at 6, you will need 2 tyrants because one is the reaper (you cannot go out without it!), and you'll need another tyrant to be your WL.

So you'll buy a second Detachment, going down to 4 CPs.

Including the reaper you'll go to 3 CPs, and considering the changes on the Psychic Interrogation, you will need the Synaptic Tendrils WLT, and you're down to 2 CPs.

And the Flyrant is FANTASTIC on interrogating stuff. The flyrant is our best character interrogator.

If you start you'll have 2 CPs + 1 CP, and we all know what a flyrant with 3 CPs available can do. Most of the times we only use 1 CP for overrun, but the potential of using 3 CPs, delete a key strong unit and then fly back to safety is still there and must be taken in consideration by the opponent.

If is the opponent's turn, you can use 1, 2 or 3 CPs, and still be safe with the flyrant after he deletes something not too big, because he will gain 1 CP on your turn.

[Master Chief]

Plus another thing people are not really considering, the Leviathan struggle for obsec.

Usually most Leviathan lists have 2 or max 3 obsec units.

The Swarmlord can bring a very valid answer for that problem.

Sometimes you just need to make something obsec to take an objective.

And you can feel the difference on 9 warriors fully buffed, when they re roll to hit during shooting and in melee.

Most of the times it will be only on shooting, but still, those 3 VCs re rolling to hit are not bad at all.

[bolk]

Jun 27, 2022 11:08:55 GMT Master Chief said:

Jun 27, 2022 9:23:08 GMT Raven said:

I think access to Adaptive Biology does more to help a walking Hive Tyrant's survivability than the +1 Wound and Blade Parry of the Swarmlord when compared to each other, though of course the Swarmlord can also be Catalyst'd to gain the same benefit.

You're not needing the 5+++. And that is a CP you're spending going from 2 starting CPs to 1 starting CP.

During the shooting phase you cannot be targeted, and in close combat not many things want to be engaged with a Leviathan Swarmlord.

And the Swarmlord is fantastic considering the new Nelhilim starting CPs.

You start at 6, you will need 2 tyrants because one is the reaper (you cannot go out without it!), and you'll need another tyrant to be your WL.

So you'll buy a second Detachment, going down to 4 CPs.

Including the reaper you'll go to 3 CPs, and considering the changes on the Psychic Interrogation, you will need the Synaptic Tendrils WLT, and you're down to 2 CPs.

And the Flyrant is FANTASTIC on interrogating stuff. The flyrant is our best character interrogator.

If you start you'll have 2 CPs + 1 CP, and we all know what a flyrant with 3 CPs available can do. Most of the times we only use 1 CP for overrun, but the potential of using 3 CPs, delete a key strong unit and then fly back to safety is still there and must be taken in consideration by the opponent.

If is the opponent's turn, you can use 1, 2 or 3 CPs, and still be safe with the flyrant after he deletes something not too big, because he will gain 1 CP on your turn.

I'm sorry if I totally missed something obvious, but how can a Leviathan Swarmlord not be targeted during the Shooting phase?

[TheDeepestShadow]

I believe the assumption is that you're always taking Tyrant Guard with Swarmy

[Master Chief]

Yup, I am not even taking in consideration the idea of not bringing T guards.

[dkng]

Units that for any reason ignore Look Out Sir can still target the Tyrant through the Tyrant Guard.

[infornography]

Jun 27, 2022 17:34:26 GMT dkng said:

Units that for any reason ignore Look Out Sir can still target the Tyrant through the Tyrant Guard.

Yeah, but how many of those have the sheer firepower necessary to significantly hurt a Tyrant? I can't think of any... Those units are usually designed to take out the last few wounds of a good infantry character or remove a problematic support character. They don't really have the tools to deal with a monster.

[bolk]

Jun 27, 2022 14:24:16 GMT Master Chief said:

Yup, I am not even taking in consideration the idea of not bringing T guards.

Right, just started to wonder if I had missed something very useful😅

[hiveoverall]

Jun 27, 2022 11:23:01 GMT Master Chief said:

Plus another thing people are not really considering, the Leviathan struggle for obsec.

Usually most Leviathan lists have 2 or max 3 obsec units.

The Swarmlord can bring a very valid answer for that problem.

Sometimes you just need to make something obsec to take an objective.

And you can feel the difference on 9 warriors fully buffed, when they re roll to hit during shooting and in melee.

Most of the times it will be only on shooting, but still, those 3 VCs re rolling to hit are not bad at all.

You my friend have totally sold me on testing a leviathan list with swarmy, reaper flyrant with adaptive bio (synaptic tendrils is the only thing you haven't sold me on), 9 warriors, and lots of other synapse stuff to make the secondary objective where snypase creatures must kill stuff to get points.

We could probably bring a synapse dual VC harpy and like 2*3 zoanthropes, dunno really. Come to think of it, that "synaptic kills" secondary might be a big bright red trap for us...

And thanks for the general insight, seems you have put quite a lot of thought in post nerf nids, a lot more than the rest of us from the last pages I have read in this forum (for me its even worse not only have I no insight, but I just can't even make out a decent list, our stuff is now very expensive so I can't fit my battleplan in 2000 points for now... Need to work more on this)

[Master Chief]

Thanks.

The Synaptic Tendrils are for the Neuro, as often I use a flyrant for Psychic Interrogation and sometimes might be useful to cast on 3d6 pick 2.

If not, the standard Psychic Build is still very very good, including the Maleceptor on 220 points, is a fantastic relays for links and other things, once you don't want to expose more important things.

Honesty I couldn't play without 2 warp syphons...

The Last weekend took nids at the Irish GT and ended up 4th with 4W and 1L.

Lost only against a BT (by 9 points) because of a very bad luck from me, very very lucky 5++ saves from opponent, and most important a mistake in picking up a Warp craft mission forgetting he can dispell on a 4+, and he never failed a single one on 5 turns...

Anyway I did the mistake and I payed for it.



We were playing the new dataslate and new points and the list was this:

-Flyrant, Maw Claws, 5+++, WL
-Neuro, Barb, Tendrils

-3 Zoas
-3 T Guards
-3 Venomthropes
-Maleceptor

-9 Warriors

-Exocrine

-Harpy, 2 HVCs, 4++



-Flyrant, Reaper

-15 Hormagaunts



And with Nephilim ill drop the Claw Maws Flyrant (he didn't perform bad at all, but more than 1 Flyrant per turn can't do wonders) and 2 Hormagaunts for a Swarmlord, tougher, that's more violent in close combat and is more sinergic with the 9 man Warriors unit.

Plus from time to time you can make 3 zoas, 3 Venomthropes or even the 3 t guards obsec if needed.

Had these thoughts after facing a Swarmlord and barely winning by 2 points. I wasn't losing many units but it was like a chess game, where if I didn't want to expose myself and try my luck (Leviathan transhuman and a 4++ invo might won you a game on a wrong estimated calculation damages, or simply on an unlucky roll to wound, or some lucky 4++ saves), I just didn't have enough resources to deal with it and I didn't risk it.

And to deal with him you need to charge him with something mean, and the transhuman 4+, combined with the blade parry, combined with the cp re roll on his 4++, might mitigate a lot of the expected damages on him.

Basically ONLY the reaper could deal with it, and there was a significant chance of not killing him, and lose the reaper (and the game) on that charge.

My list was superior in pretty much everything, I was faster, I had a better Psychic Build, I was shooting more and was meaner in Close Combat. Only the SL kept my opponent in the game.

And about the Maleceptor, I loved it even at 220 points.

And the Exocrine was an experiment on a AoC meta, and he performed very well aswell, not only against Marines.

[Master Chief]

To be honest the only opponent I didn't have any clue on how to face him was the guy who won the tournament and had Sisters.

But not because he won, but because I don't know Sisters at all and haven't got any clue about any of their rules...

[zimko]

I agree that the core psychic build is still the way to go, even with 220 pt Maleceptor. He's still a power house and difficult to replace.

I think we're on the same page for most of your list except the Warriors, Exocrine and Harpy. I'd rather just take more Warriors than the other 2 but there could be many factors like meta and terrain that factor into it. The terrain here is very good for units of Warriors to hide in and pop out when needed. Meanwhile a Harpy is exposed as soon as it hits the table, and Exocrines can barely draw line of sight on anything useful with all the terrain.

[nameless]

Ah, that was you.

So you use the point and dataslate changes, but not the new missions I suppose.

That's similar to lists I was considering post changes. I think the swarmlord makes a lot of sense and I'm not sure about the exo but I've been wanting to give it a shot.

With those changes, you're sitting on:
-2 patrol
-1 relic: Reaper
-1 WL: 5FNP
-1 relic: Barb
-1 WL: Tendrils

I think you could easily drop the barb to start with 1 cp. I do think you want to keep the 5FNP so you can put cat somewhere else.

[kazetanade]

You guys sleeping on SL and Gaunts/Gants. The Swarm Lord literally make the Swarm units ace.

At the same time, he can also make that unit of TG hit like a brick AND steal your objective. Or make that unit of Zoeys steal your objective.

Then, if you wait roo long and get into combat with him... well, let's just say he's a genuine threat now.

Leviathan is a poor fleet that's super crutch for a faction that uses MCs - if you want to Levi, you want 18 warriors at least with 2 or 3 Zoey units to really abuse the transNids and bully out with obsec and MW damage.

TG aren't tax man. They pull weight. Just don't give them swords.

[Jbizzy]

Jun 28, 2022 19:15:08 GMT kazetanade said:

You guys sleeping on SL and Gaunts/Gants. The Swarm Lord literally make the Swarm units ace.

At the same time, he can also make that unit of TG hit like a brick AND steal your objective. Or make that unit of Zoeys steal your objective.

Then, if you wait roo long and get into combat with him... well, let's just say he's a genuine threat now.

Leviathan is a poor fleet that's super crutch for a faction that uses MCs - if you want to Levi, you want 18 warriors at least with 2 or 3 Zoey units to really abuse the transNids and bully out with obsec and MW damage.

TG aren't tax man. They pull weight. Just don't give them swords.

What TG weapons do you recommend instead of swords? Just the base rending claw/scything talons? I love the look and damage of the crushing claws but 20 ppm is pricey.