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Post by gigasnail on Mar 17, 2022 16:00:17 GMT
There's a lot to like here.
There is also quite a bit of derp.
I agree with the poster that said this is a clean-slate move. Time to re-evaluate it all, and dont get too attached to anything.
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Post by nameless on Mar 17, 2022 16:23:11 GMT
I'm blown away by how many people like these "tricks" from previous editions. They were terrible. I'm super glad to see them gone. I also don't understand this attachment to things that were done previously and how it's awful that they can't be done now. The best part of new codex is that things change. I can't imagine how dull it would be if things only had minor changes.
parzaius has given a good summary of what was nerfed though.
- Winged Tyrant didn't get the stat boosts of the ground one, gets half the weapon options, AND still costs way more
It still moves fast. That's a huge component. And with specific relics, it doesn't need much more stat boosts to do damage. I think it might die a little quick, but that remains to be seen.
- Both tyrants lost the most commonly taken weapons (Devs & Rending Claws)
As we expected based on what was in box.
- Swarmlord lost his "move a unit" power; the only reason anyone took him
This was a pretty awful trick and I'm glad to see that gone. It also lost the 3++ but there are only 2 units currently in 40k who have it (and we have one of them). I think with a CORE heavy list, Swarmy got a lot better. Without that, you'd be looking at a standard tyrant (the relic HVC is really good) or a melee hunter one with Reaper (though, I think the melee foot one is just as good)
- All Tyrants (and Swarmy) are limit 1 per detachment in an edition that punishes you for taking multiple detachments
Never liked Codex Hive Tyrant, so I'm happy to see that change. 8e lists for me involved 1 swarmy and 1 HT, but I can just add a patrol if I want to do that. Sucks to lose the CP, but this is another overall change that I think is good for the game (not to mention other codex have similar limits)
- Broodlord lost Toughness (for some reason)
This is a weird one.
- Trygon and Trygon Prime's main weapon went from d6 to 2
D2 is really a shame. There is a behemoth relic for +1 damage that's worth considering and you're at 12A at S8 with 3 damage. And it does have -1 to hit in melee.
- Genestealers are wildly worse than their Purestrain cousins, despite now ALSO being elites, max 10, losing their 'advance and charge' rule, and their cost increasing 33%
Genestealers did get worse, yep. I'm happy to use something different.
- Devourer gauts are a joke despite costing more. It sure feels like somebody meant to type Assault 5 (like literally every other Devourer in the codex) but fat-fingered a 2 there instead.
Devourer gauts are good when they wound on 4+ vs everything but vehicles.
- Ripper Swarms got pulled from Troop choice, aren't core, can't get Objective Secured, don't count for compulsory units (but DO count for maximum for some reason), didn't get useful stat increases, and went up in cost by almost 30%
The days of taking 9 rippers for troops and moving on are behind us (thankfully). They're now completely useless, but it's a unit I'm happy to shelf for the edition.
- Hive Guard got massacred, with Impaler cannons at 2/3rds range, lower Str, requiring team LoS (despite other factions not needing it), got moved from Elite to Heavy (taking up spots all our other shooting guys need), and went up by 20% despite all the nerfs
You didn't mention the extra W, T, Sv (and S and A) that it got. Another unit that I'm happy to put away for an edition. The shock cannon could be interesting though.
- Exocrine and Tyrannofex lost their double shooting (though they mostly got +50% of that back in their default stats, except, conspicuously, the Rupture Cannon)
The Exocrine is one of the most improved units in the codex. Instead of staying still and shooting 12 S7, Ap3, D2 shots (let's not talk what happens if it moves), it can move 8" (or 4" and ignore cover) and shoot 7-9 shots at S8, AP4, D3 and add a 2+ save on all of that. It's certainly riskier to getting tagged in assault though.
Tyrannofex has one of the efficient weapons in the codex with the acid spray (at constant S6, 3AP (up 2), and non-random damage) with 3 extra W and a 2+ save. I'm not sure how the Rupture cannon got worse. Instead of double shooting, it has more than average damage as an addition (simulates double shots) with a +4S and 1AP increase. Salvo also doubles in shots.
Add all that together, and the loss of double shots is just a narrow way to look at the whole picture (and ignore that not moving is potentially quite an issue)
- Mawloc's Terror From The Deep is, possibly, the worst it's ever been.
Mawloc's TftD is different, but I wouldn't say worse. It does more damage and you can charge with it if you want plus you don't have to play the "can it fit" game. It's also a way to force board control to your advantage. It also has more S, T, and W (and +7 attacks and the MW jaws). I think it's one of the most improved units in the codex.
- Adaptives are tremendously weaker, across the board
Gonna miss murderous size, for sure. But Dermic size is better, Voracious ammo is probably an auto take, synaptic enhancement is great for a number of things (not to mention in Leviation)
- Nearly every Nid Stratagem that was good got pulled out of the codex
There are so many good stratagems, that losing "tricks" like double shooting is fine.
Sure, these are nerfs if you look at them specifically under a narrow lens without taking in context, but it's rarely ever that simple. I feel like this is a massively better codex and I'm happy to see new units and strategies evolve; I can't express how much I would hate for this codex to have made the things better from the last one and be locked into the exact same armies we've been playing.
Maybe this is a mindset difference and people really do hate change this much but hopefully, this can explain the mindset of people who think this codex is a huge change for the better.
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Post by dabigboss on Mar 17, 2022 16:47:16 GMT
I saw one sad moment while reading new dex. We can't take forgeworld nids into detachments because they haven't HIVE TENDRIL keyword. Otherwise, very good codex, very close to custodes and tau power level.
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Post by yoritomo on Mar 17, 2022 16:51:24 GMT
Don’t be too harsh on people. These “tricks” as you call them were viable strategies that allowed us to succeed in an environment where we were significantly under powered. Asking people to give up what works is a hard thing for them to do. Even if you are showing them a better way.
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Post by niiai on Mar 17, 2022 17:44:04 GMT
Can I jump in here, what do people think of the Maleceptor? It used to be able to babysit T8 and give the - 1 strength stratagem. However, now it is an action, meaning you can not do it if you go second. Second, it's psykick link seems bad unless you can get two psykick links. Then someone can do interegate secondary and you can still cast spells. I have been wanted to get one for a while. But I am a bit on the fence. I think you misunderstand how the new psychic link works. When you activate a link for a turn... EVERY synapse creature gains that link's affects. So every psyker in the army can perform an action and still cast spells. If you're playing as Leviathon, then you can also cast a power that gives the maleceptor's ability to a single psyker. Not quite as effective but still worth noting. No I understand how they work. The Maleceptor link allows you to perform a psykick action and stil cast spells, does it not? Assuming I have 2 spell on my casters one can cast the leviathan spell on another, grab the Maleceptor link. And that other one can do mental interrogation and cast their spells. It is a bit conveluded though. Perhaps it is easier to just mental interrogate with some Zoanthropes, but then I am wasting the +3 to cast. |
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Post by nameless on Mar 17, 2022 17:53:02 GMT
The big Malceptor combo is:
Take Malceptor + Neuthrope
Use Neuthrope ability on Malceptor for 3d6 cast.
Cast Leviathan Hive Nexus power on Malceptor.
Optional: Have Neuthrope Link active for a turn
Cast the following powers: Smite, Psychic Scream, Neuroparasite (1CP) at 3d6 [drop lowest] (+1)
Rolling above a 7 is pretty likely:
Smite = 1d3+3 MW (or 1d6+3)
Psychic Scream = 1d3+3 MW
Neuroparasite = Toughness Test MW + 3
Using the Malceptor's link (from Hive Nexus) cast Encephalic Diffusion for 3 MW
Total that up, you're doing 12MW + 1d3 + 1d3 + toughness test
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Post by gigasnail on Mar 17, 2022 18:20:27 GMT
I saw one sad moment while reading new dex. We can't take forgeworld nids into detachments because they haven't HIVE TENDRIL keyword. Otherwise, very good codex, very close to custodes and tau power level. It's a faction keyword change. Expect it to be FAQ'd quickly. |
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Post by Aux on Mar 17, 2022 18:25:48 GMT
nameless has some wonderful points.
I'm looking forward to large Warrior Blobs, Gaunt Swarms, and Carnifexs
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Post by swarm492 on Mar 17, 2022 18:30:27 GMT
Rule clarification.
Hydras main trait states that for the purpose of outnumbered, a tank and monster unit each count as 5 models. Is this universal for my own and my opponents?
I'm assuming it is i just don't like it not clarifying.
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Post by bolk on Mar 17, 2022 19:07:05 GMT
Rule clarification. Hydras main trait states that for the purpose of outnumbered, a tank and monster unit each count as 5 models. Is this universal for my own and my opponents? I'm assuming it is i just don't like it not clarifying. Yes, Tyranids doesn't have Vehicles. "For the purposes of this Adapation, Vehicle and Monster models each count as 5 models." |
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Post by zedan on Mar 17, 2022 20:15:41 GMT
The big Malceptor combo is: Take Malceptor + Neuthrope Use Neuthrope ability on Malceptor for 3d6 cast. Cast Leviathan Hive Nexus power on Malceptor. Optional: Have Neuthrope Link active for a turn Cast the following powers: Smite, Psychic Scream, Neuroparasite (1CP) at 3d6 [drop lowest] (+1) Rolling above a 7 is pretty likely: Smite = 1d3+3 MW (or 1d6+3) Psychic Scream = 1d3+3 MW Neuroparasite = Toughness Test MW + 3 Using the Malceptor's link (from Hive Nexus) cast Encephalic Diffusion for 3 MW Total that up, you're doing 12MW + 1d3 + 1d3 + toughness test I think I calculated the ceiling of mortal wounds our maleceptor can do at 39 in a turn lol. (Assuming crusher is valid). So in the perfect world: Neuroparasite 6 Psy scream 3 Smite 6 Psy action 0 Bonus psy overload 12 Charging with horned chitin 6 Breaking through 6 |
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Post by infornography on Mar 17, 2022 20:18:56 GMT
- Genestealers are wildly worse than their Purestrain cousins, despite now ALSO being elites, max 10, losing their 'advance and charge' rule, and their cost increasing 33% Genestealers did get worse, yep. I'm happy to use something different. This one is a case of internal balance. Genestealers got marginally better, but lost obsec, troops, advance and charge, and cost more. Ideally we wouldn't have any guaranteed shelf sitters, but I think my geneies are now. - Devourer gauts are a joke despite costing more. It sure feels like somebody meant to type Assault 5 (like literally every other Devourer in the codex) but fat-fingered a 2 there instead. Devourer gauts are good when they wound on 4+ vs everything but vehicles. Devourer Gants are ADEQUATE when they wound on 4+. Which requires certain combos most of the time. Plus you pay extra for the privilege on an already overcosted platform that still evaporates when faced with a stiff breeze. Dedicated shelf sitter. - Ripper Swarms got pulled from Troop choice, aren't core, can't get Objective Secured, don't count for compulsory units (but DO count for maximum for some reason), didn't get useful stat increases, and went up in cost by almost 30% The days of taking 9 rippers for troops and moving on are behind us (thankfully). They're now completely useless, but it's a unit I'm happy to shelf for the edition. Another dedicated shelf sitter and a particularly confusing one. They nerfed out of existence every single purpose they previously had and then drastically increased their cost. I really don't know what they thought rippers would still contribute especially at that points value. - Hive Guard got massacred, with Impaler cannons at 2/3rds range, lower Str, requiring team LoS (despite other factions not needing it), got moved from Elite to Heavy (taking up spots all our other shooting guys need), and went up by 20% despite all the nerfs You didn't mention the extra W, T, Sv (and S and A) that it got. Another unit that I'm happy to put away for an edition. The shock cannon could be interesting though. And another bizarrely excessive nerf. Conditional LoS, sure. Dropping the range by a third, maybe on its own. Reducing the strength by 2, nope, not without a points drop. Raising the cost substantially, yeah, if it wasn't nerfed any other way. All of the above? What? No, just no. Bad GW no biscuit. Basically these are obvious failures of internal balance. Either GW decided they WANTED to have several shelf sitters in the codex or they were just swinging the nerf bat around carelessly and didn't realize what they had done until it was at the printers. Most of the codex seems so well done and thought out, it makes me feel like this is calculated in part due to so many Tyranid players having large numbers of these four units. They wanted us to buy different ones... I hate assuming things like that but man, what else am I supposed to think with these cases. |
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Post by jesses on Mar 17, 2022 20:56:07 GMT
Impalers got nerfed, Shockcannons looks amazing. Glad I magnetized mine*.
*Well, the plastic ones at least. I still have 6 old metal ones from before Shockcannons even existed lol.
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Post by nameless on Mar 17, 2022 21:39:39 GMT
Most of the codex seems so well done and thought out, it makes me feel like this is calculated in part due to so many Tyranid players having large numbers of these four units. They wanted us to buy different ones... I hate assuming things like that but man, what else am I supposed to think with these cases. I don't think there is any sort of tinfoil hat needed for this as it happens too often for it to be random (i.e. tervigon was the last big one that went from A++ to C/B I think, and now it's reasonable agan). GW has told us that they are a modelling company so getting people to buy models is a primary goal (makes sense) but if they were full on extreme, we should have seen Hive tyrands nerfed (at minimum) plus better rules for a lot of the new models (i.e. malceptor finally has reasonable rules). I think all those units have a place, if minor, but I really don't have an issue shelving units and am glad that I'll probably not use my 15 hive guard until next edition (only 3 of them are plastic, which might get some use) So much of this stuff has been used since 5ed. Losing gants, rippers, hiveguard, and genestealers makes out pretty well, I think. |
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Post by kazetanade on Mar 17, 2022 21:40:04 GMT
The HG looked like a pain to magnetize so... I'm out in the cold with my 15 HG lol. More likely than not no one will recognize what the gun is anyway hahaha...
One thing I'm liking is the amount of MWs in the codex. When we first released in 8th Ed I remember thinking that by design, Nids should be one of the highest MW producing armies in the game. Everything we have is poison meant to kill you.
It was a missed opportunity, but I like how GW has clearly made an effort to represent that through umpteen different mechanics in our codex, in addition to the random MWs all codexes get from certain skills.
The only thing... I'm very unsure of at this time. Is how our gribble falls into place at the current cost. They're still pretty squishy and Termagants are more expensive than Neophytes - this is an issue (but the improved gun goes a long way to countering the comparison). Mini trans doesn't keep them alive the well, so honestly I'm thinking you'd want 60 with a Tervigon to form midfield pressure, just like mid 8th Ed Carpet Gaunt variations.
What I can say is that warriors look like our new backbone, and everything works best as a mixed generalist rather than as melee specialists.
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