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Post by kazetanade on Jan 23, 2022 3:56:11 GMT
Haruspex is actually super solid right now. Its unfortunately a little luck dependant on psychic, but very valid.
I think the adequate question would be: what other platform can do as well as the Haruspex given the same or similar buffs? At the top of my head, nothing in our codex, due to the absolutely obscene number of attacks this thing can put out when stuck in.
I've tested TG next to it and although TG give a different dimension to it and are a tad bit more consistent, they don't have the same heft to them, and end up taking a valuable Adaptation slot to make sure they can hold ground.
In terms of durable holding the only other one that might be on parr is a Scythed Heirodule, but it just doesn't have the volume of A to cut its way through invuls - the Haruspex is great because its average expected is 12A, with access to rr to hit, wound, and +1D, and is still consistent on damage despite swinging number of A. (A similarly sized TG squad only outputs 12A, which will be consistent, but only rr to hit, no rr to wound, and no extra D). The TG are the closest similar platform I can think of, and are squishier in a CS by far.
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Jan 23, 2022 5:04:50 GMT
With just +d3A power, rr hits power, and rr wounds strat OOE outdoes Haruspex against anything. H avgs 9 hits w/ Maw and OOE avgs 11.4 w/ CC. OOEs superior S, AP, flat 3 dmg, and char protection makes it more efficient. Haruspex can surpass in output, but it takes an AP and the +1/1/1 strat (so ~3 CP) to do so.
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Post by LordPathos on Jan 23, 2022 7:37:12 GMT
From what I see, lists running a unit of HG and 2 exocrine wouldn't matter too much. The point increase of the HG is almost offset by the point decrease of the 2 exos. The dima increases hurt tho Dimas dont win tournaments, barbed heriodule do. LordPathos Can you fit three Fleshborer hives into a list now?  Don't think I won't try! |
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Post by bigpig on Jan 23, 2022 8:22:35 GMT
Haruspex is actually super solid right now. Its unfortunately a little luck dependant on psychic, but very valid. I think the adequate question would be: what other platform can do as well as the Haruspex given the same or similar buffs? At the top of my head, nothing in our codex, due to the absolutely obscene number of attacks this thing can put out when stuck in. I've tested TG next to it and although TG give a different dimension to it and are a tad bit more consistent, they don't have the same heft to them, and end up taking a valuable Adaptation slot to make sure they can hold ground. In terms of durable holding the only other one that might be on parr is a Scythed Heirodule, but it just doesn't have the volume of A to cut its way through invuls - the Haruspex is great because its average expected is 12A, with access to rr to hit, wound, and +1D, and is still consistent on damage despite swinging number of A. (A similarly sized TG squad only outputs 12A, which will be consistent, but only rr to hit, no rr to wound, and no extra D). The TG are the closest similar platform I can think of, and are squishier in a CS by far. I've actually been playing the scythed in CS while figuring out what to take to LVO as I have no dima models and my haruspex isn't painted. Have about 8 games so far with it. As you say, it does.... ok, but is very target dependant. D3+3 is amazing, but as you say, it does have the risk of bouncing off mortals. The flamer really helps keep it from getting tarpitted which is nice. The dima still outclasses it though With just +d3A power, rr hits power, and rr wounds strat OOE outdoes Haruspex against anything. H avgs 9 hits w/ Maw and OOE avgs 11.4 w/ CC. OOEs superior S, AP, flat 3 dmg, and char protection makes it more efficient. Haruspex can surpass in output, but it takes an AP and the +1/1/1 strat (so ~3 CP) to do so. Valid point. He's still quite pricey though. He pays for the synergy given to carnifex I think, but even then too expensive (didn't see a points drop for OOE on leaks, did I miss it?) I also find myself short on HQ slots |
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 23, 2022 10:46:44 GMT
Points for Haruspex:
1. Its also an excellent tarpit and makes great use of 4++ 5+++ -1D, while also being T8.
2. cheaper (soon to be 155 vs 220).
3. Average performance is on par, with extra A on dead models with a big weapon.
4. Takes the same resources for output (takes +d3A and rero spell, then reroll wounds strat, and an adaptation. OOE takes reroll wounds and exploding 6s as part of its standard rotation to match output).
Points against OOE:
1. takes a HQ slot. I need that slot for SL and a Swordrant.
2. Takes up a Psyker slot. CS needs access to both traditional spells and the new spells.
Points for OOE:
- tonnes of damage. Do you really need it?
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Post by Master Chief on Jan 23, 2022 11:01:06 GMT
Another thing in favor of the haruspex is that because of that huge base is easier to launch powers or hive commander on him, and he'll be at least a couple inches closer to the enemy when you do that.
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Post by brianb9999 on Jan 23, 2022 13:37:25 GMT
Glad to see everyone’s coming around on my big boi the Haruspex. He’s come a long way to playability, but I think he’s there.
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Post by LordPathos on Jan 23, 2022 15:57:03 GMT
No.
No no no.
Do not fall into this trap of forming bad habits. This does NOT fix the Haruspex, this makes the Haruspex playable. You have to use resources to get it. That is bad design. Units need to be good on their own to be valid. We are talking about taking a specific army special rule, strats, relics, and psychic powers to make the Haruspex good. Just pretend all your CP is gone, your psykers with those powers are dead, and/or you could not spring for the relic. Where does that leave it? Right back to where it was. This is just like (was it the Leviathan rules?) when the Malecepter got the -1S buff and I think the Toxicrine got something else but I cannot remember for the life of me (really helps my case, I know). But everyone said, this is now the era of the Toxicrine! How many Toxicrines do you see taking the slots of Carnifexes, Exocrenes, Mawlocs, etc?
Point is, please, PLEASE, do not let GW get away with adding extra things, that you need to take to make a unit better, and think the unit is now good. And don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Crusher Stampede rules and I want to use all the different combinations like you guys are coming up with.
Units are suppose to be good first. Relics, strats, powers, etc are suppose to be flexible options that can go on anything and make it better. Not just sink EVERYTHING into 1 unit that Tau Railgun is gonna nuke in 1 turn anyway (or Hivemind forbid, that new 12dmg weapon that can ignore invulns with a strat (See! Perfect example! They took a VERY good weapon and with a strat, made it better) ).
*end rant*
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Jan 23, 2022 15:59:32 GMT
Points for Haruspex: 1. Its also an excellent tarpit and makes great use of 4++ 5+++ -1D, while also being T8. 2. cheaper (soon to be 155 vs 220). 3. Average performance is on par, with extra A on dead models with a big weapon. 4. Takes the same resources for output (takes +d3A and rero spell, then reroll wounds strat, and an adaptation. OOE takes reroll wounds and exploding 6s as part of its standard rotation to match output). Points against OOE: 1. takes a HQ slot. I need that slot for SL and a Swordrant. 2. Takes up a Psyker slot. CS needs access to both traditional spells and the new spells. Points for OOE: - tonnes of damage. Do you really need it? OOE doesnt need CP to surpass Haruspex in output, but the reverse is more often true. So it depends on how you want to spend resources, pts or CP. I think either choice is comparable when looking for a body to output damage, so it’s a nice flex point we have in list building. I do think the tarpit point is valid, but at that point does the Haruspex need an AP or the offensive buffs on it to do that job? With Tau looking to be the worst matchup for CS, having character protection on the highest output body in the army might easily be worth all the detracting factors. Edit: Toxi got the “no fallback for you” strat. |
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Post by purestrain on Jan 23, 2022 16:24:29 GMT
Points for Haruspex: 1. Its also an excellent tarpit and makes great use of 4++ 5+++ -1D, while also being T8. 2. cheaper (soon to be 155 vs 220). 3. Average performance is on par, with extra A on dead models with a big weapon. 4. Takes the same resources for output (takes +d3A and rero spell, then reroll wounds strat, and an adaptation. OOE takes reroll wounds and exploding 6s as part of its standard rotation to match output). Points against OOE: 1. takes a HQ slot. I need that slot for SL and a Swordrant. 2. Takes up a Psyker slot. CS needs access to both traditional spells and the new spells. Points for OOE: - tonnes of damage. Do you really need it? OOE doesnt need CP to surpass Haruspex in output, but the reverse is more often true. So it depends on how you want to spend resources, pts or CP. I think either choice is comparable when looking for a body to output damage, so it’s a nice flex point we have in list building. I do think the tarpit point is valid, but at that point does the Haruspex need an AP or the offensive buffs on it to do that job? With Tau looking to be the worst matchup for CS, having character protection on the highest output body in the army might easily be worth all the detracting factors. Edit: Toxi got the “no fallback for you” strat. What OOE has as a built in usefulness, he takes away from every other unit in the army by not having that psyker on the field to augment them, or flat replacing a hive tyrant with Invuln ignore swords that will (given the d3 attacks wl trait) kill more often that he can when slamming into 4++. On the flipside, you then have a unit that is on par with him, that is more durable and you also have the nearly on par invuln killer. I know what I want, and OOE hasnt seen play on my tables for a while, he's too 1 dimensional for his costs and I've never had him survive a counter charge from a dedicated melee unit, and the haruspex just doesn't die. |
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Post by angrypomeranian on Jan 23, 2022 18:33:28 GMT
How long GW will be nerfing dima?Till it become unplayable?20 points every cha?
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Post by gorsameth on Jan 23, 2022 19:23:18 GMT
How long GW will be nerfing dima?Till it become unplayable?20 points every cha? GW nerfing a Forgeworld unit that carries an entire faction in its back? Who could have ever seen this coming *surprise Pikachu face* |
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Jan 23, 2022 20:01:12 GMT
What OOE has as a built in usefulness, he takes away from every other unit in the army by not having that psyker on the field to augment them, or flat replacing a hive tyrant with Invuln ignore swords that will (given the d3 attacks wl trait) kill more often that he can when slamming into 4++. On the flipside, you then have a unit that is on par with him, that is more durable and you also have the nearly on par invuln killer. I know what I want, and OOE hasnt seen play on my tables for a while, he's too 1 dimensional for his costs and I've never had him survive a counter charge from a dedicated melee unit, and the haruspex just doesn't die. Some Math for thought. SHB = Synaptic Hive Blades (ignore ++ BS's). T8 3+/4++: Tyrant w/ +2d3A, SHB, rr wounds -- 8.25 Dmg Tyrant w/ +2d3A, SHB, rr wounds, Size -- 13.6 Dmg OOE w/ +d3A, rr hits, rr wounds -- 15.2 dmg T7 3+/4++: Tyrant w/ +2d3A, SHB, rr wounds -- 9.94 Dmg Tyrant w/ +2d3A, SHB, rr wounds, Size -- 18.6 Dmg OOE w/ +d3A, rr hits, rr wounds -- 16.6 dmg T6 3+/4++: Tyrant w/ +2d3A, SHB, rr wounds -- 13.6 Dmg Tyrant w/ +2d3A, SHB, rr wounds, Size -- 22.1 Dmg OOE w/ +d3A, rr hits, rr wounds -- 16.6 dmg How long GW will be nerfing dima?Till it become unplayable?20 points every cha? Still is perfectly playable as a 1 of, but difficult to run 3 of them and can't hide them behind Barbed Dules for TTL. They once again are appropriately priced I think (similar to the changes last year). |
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Jan 23, 2022 20:02:31 GMT
What's shb?
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Jan 23, 2022 20:05:10 GMT
Synaptic Hive Blades. I'll fix it to make clearer, thanks. |
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