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Post by piersonsmuppet on Jan 5, 2022 14:38:39 GMT
Very good points. But with the exception of tyranofex flamers and *sight* flesh borer hive, hierodule flamer and dakka carnifex/tyrant the crusher stampede list are relying so much on a few high quality attacks. They can whiff VS invinerable save, and don't really kill chaff fast enough. Mass S5 ap-1 shooting just seems good. But if I want to boost the warriors to the max we are talking 3 CP, and no warlord trait though. Just take them w/o ER, you only get ignore AP -1 a majority of the time. Saving the CP for -1 Dmg will negate more from S5-8 AP -1/2 2D weapons than a 4+ Sv. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 6, 2022 5:01:06 GMT
Its a max of 27 shots - Tyranid Warriors are BAD unless you get both shoot and melee off (at which point they draw even to devgants/GS in 8th Ed cost-output efficiency), or are alive 3 turns of shooting. If you need a dedicated chaff clearer, then Dev Fexes are better, and if you need something to clear harder elites, a Haruspex may do better.
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Post by N.I.B. on Jan 10, 2022 10:53:08 GMT
Freeman, did you use the Maleceptors expensive -S strat, or did you just field him for the Synaptic Link boost?
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Post by Freeman on Jan 10, 2022 11:08:14 GMT
Freeman, did you use the Maleceptors expensive -S strat, or did you just field him for the Synaptic Link boost? So far I’ve only used it once. As you say it’s very expensive. Against a couple of my opponents it didn’t seem worth it. However I used against an Ork buggy spam list and it was amazing all the S5 shots wounding on 6s and s8 on 5s drastically mitigated the damage he could do. Unfortunately this game was my one loss so it’s hard to say if it was the right decision overall. The buggies seem a tough matchup anyway though. |
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Post by afewveiws on Jan 10, 2022 20:48:58 GMT
Its a max of 27 shots - Tyranid Warriors are BAD unless you get both shoot and melee off (at which point they draw even to devgants/GS in 8th Ed cost-output efficiency), or are alive 3 turns of shooting. If you need a dedicated chaff clearer, then Dev Fexes are better, and if you need something to clear harder elites, a Haruspex may do better. I mostly agree with this... except, the max shots out of a max warrior unit is 18 from the 6 deathspitters and 18 from the 3 barbed stranglers for a total of 36 shots. Still need to do work in melee in order to feel fully worth. |
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Post by asvic on Jan 11, 2022 8:57:58 GMT
Its a max of 27 shots - Tyranid Warriors are BAD unless you get both shoot and melee off (at which point they draw even to devgants/GS in 8th Ed cost-output efficiency), or are alive 3 turns of shooting. If you need a dedicated chaff clearer, then Dev Fexes are better, and if you need something to clear harder elites, a Haruspex may do better. I just did the math and buffed (with a stampede strat) full squad of warriors (talons, 6 spitters, 3 venoms) is actually comparable to 6 hiveguards in shooting output, while costing 36 points less. And it can take all the same buffs as HG while being pretty tanky and holding midfield objectives, so shooty warriors can be a decent back up plan. But maybe I'm a bit biased as I take 18 warriors and 12 HG every game. |
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Jan 11, 2022 14:15:43 GMT
I just did the math and buffed (with a stampede strat) full squad of warriors (talons, 6 spitters, 3 venoms) is actually comparable to 6 hiveguards in shooting output, while costing 36 points less. And it can take all the same buffs as HG while being pretty tanky and holding midfield objectives, so shooty warriors can be a decent back up plan. But maybe I'm a bit biased as I take 18 warriors and 12 HG every game. What are the Warriors equal to at? Vs T5+ HG outperform by a wide margin. T4 they are equal (War better vs 1W, HG better vs 2W+), but HG ignore LoS & Light Cover so will come out ahead in non-ideal circumstances. The only time Wars come out ahead is T3/4 chaff… at which point why take VC? In CS, an equivalent amount of pts in Carnifex w/ 2x Devs will do almost double the wounds vs T3 and slightly more vs T4. The fact that Wars need roughly equivalent pts and min 1CP for the BS buff makes them a sub-optimal pick for any target. A naked 9-man War + Carnifex is a better use of pts, forces opponent to choose between hitting Obj or output. |
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Post by asvic on Jan 11, 2022 15:13:03 GMT
I just did the math and buffed (with a stampede strat) full squad of warriors (talons, 6 spitters, 3 venoms) is actually comparable to 6 hiveguards in shooting output, while costing 36 points less. And it can take all the same buffs as HG while being pretty tanky and holding midfield objectives, so shooty warriors can be a decent back up plan. But maybe I'm a bit biased as I take 18 warriors and 12 HG every game. What are the Warriors equal to at? Vs T5+ HG outperform by a wide margin. T4 they are equal (War better vs 1W, HG better vs 2W+), but HG ignore LoS & Light Cover so will come out ahead in non-ideal circumstances. The only time Wars come out ahead is T3/4 chaff… at which point why take VC? In CS, an equivalent amount of pts in Carnifex w/ 2x Devs will do almost double the wounds vs T3 and slightly more vs T4. The fact that Wars need roughly equivalent pts and min 1CP for the BS buff makes them a sub-optimal pick for any target. A naked 9-man War + Carnifex is a better use of pts, forces opponent to choose between hitting Obj or output. So you want numbers? I'll give you numbers. Target |HG |Warriors|Devgants(purely for comparison, we can't use them in a stampede) 4t 2w 3sv |6,667|7,333 |8,75 5t 3w 2sv |4,507|4,253 |2,917 7t 3sv -1d|4,73 |4,364 |5,833 8t 3sv |5,333|4,667 |2,917 HG cost 270pts, warriors 234pts and 1cp. They both can have exploding 6s, lev rr, double-shooting. I'm not saying that you should ditch HG and go all warriors, no. Only that they can serve as a shooting power in a pinch. Especially in a stampede where you are already taking them. Carnifexes can't offense for (please do not swear) right now. |
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Jan 11, 2022 18:01:11 GMT
So you want numbers? I'll give you numbers. Target |HG |Warriors|Devgants(purely for comparison, we can't use them in a stampede) 4t 2w 3sv |6,667|7,333 |8,75 5t 3w 2sv |4,507|4,253 |2,917 7t 3sv -1d|4,73 |4,364 |5,833 8t 3sv |5,333|4,667 |2,917 HG cost 270pts, warriors 234pts and 1cp. They both can have exploding 6s, lev rr, double-shooting. I'm not saying that you should ditch HG and go all warriors, no. Only that they can serve as a shooting power in a pinch. Especially in a stampede where you are already taking them. Carnifexes can't offense for (please do not swear) right now. You don’t explain the numbers or show calculations… so they are kind of meaningless atm. Are you showing avg damage, avg models killed, avg ppw, etc? Nids (especially CS) are so hungry for CP, that it seems a waste to burn it to make Warriors mediocre instead of sub-par. I say mediocre since HG are mediocre without rr’s and shooting twice. |
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Post by niiai on Jan 11, 2022 18:08:14 GMT
You say shoot twice. But that is with CP. But it goes for both.
If I do remember my math back from 8th edition warriors came out quite alright for their points. Only downside was that your weapon profile means you en up buying weapons the list do not nesaserraly need. (You want 3 venom cannons, but you also buy 6 deaths potters.) And hive guard have that can target anything. Warriors has since gotten point decreases, but 'nobody' likes them.
Warrriors have synapse and can fight in Melee. I like that quite a bit.
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Jan 11, 2022 18:36:36 GMT
You say shoot twice. But that is with CP. But it goes for both. If I do remember my math back from 8th edition warriors came out quite alright for their points. Only downside was that your weapon profile means you en up buying weapons the list do not nesaserraly need. (You want 3 venom cannons, but you also buy 6 deaths potters.) And hive guard have that can target anything. Warriors has since gotten point decreases, but 'nobody' likes them. Warrriors have synapse and can fight in Melee. I like that quite a bit. Don’t get me wrong, I like warriors a lot. However, I don’t like VC or the WS/BS strat using up valuable resources for negligible benefit. |
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Post by asvic on Jan 12, 2022 8:20:37 GMT
So you want numbers? I'll give you numbers. Target |HG |Warriors|Devgants(purely for comparison, we can't use them in a stampede) 4t 2w 3sv |6,667|7,333 |8,75 5t 3w 2sv |4,507|4,253 |2,917 7t 3sv -1d|4,73 |4,364 |5,833 8t 3sv |5,333|4,667 |2,917 HG cost 270pts, warriors 234pts and 1cp. They both can have exploding 6s, lev rr, double-shooting. I'm not saying that you should ditch HG and go all warriors, no. Only that they can serve as a shooting power in a pinch. Especially in a stampede where you are already taking them. Carnifexes can't offense for (please do not swear) right now. You don’t explain the numbers or show calculations… so they are kind of meaningless atm. Are you showing avg damage, avg models killed, avg ppw, etc? Nids (especially CS) are so hungry for CP, that it seems a waste to burn it to make Warriors mediocre instead of sub-par. I say mediocre since HG are mediocre without rr’s and shooting twice. That's average damage. An spending CP on warriors is not a waste - it's actually one of the most effective ways to spend your cp - the following table is increase in damage into the targets mentioned previously per cp spent comparing warriors receiving ONLY an upgrade vs HG receiving double-shoot and exploding 6s: Warriors, 0.2 cp per turn: 9,165|5,315|5,455|5,835 additional damage per cp spent HG, 3 cp per turn: 3,333|2,253|2,365|2,666 additional damage per cp spent |
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Jan 12, 2022 14:48:38 GMT
5 turns of shooting from a mid-board unit also likely on an objective… a little idealized for my taste. HG/DS Warriors are better against different targets, why not just do 9 Wars /w DS and hit them with their Link if you need light Infantry/chaff clear? Save the CP with better prioritization of loadout/Link buffs.
Edit: for reference 3 CP will cause HG to do ~13 more avg damage to T4/3+ (~9 -> ~22) in a single turn. I'd rather save the 1 CP from upgrading warriors to have a 2nd potential volley of double tapping exploding HG. If you win the game T2, there is no benefit to Warriors shooting T3/4/5 (hence why negligible).
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Post by haazelthorn on Jan 16, 2022 20:56:13 GMT
Hello! A Crusher Stampede list won a 60 man 2 day tournamet in Poland! Good thing for us, GW does not know where Poland is located or else we would have received a nerf  |
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Post by niiai on Jan 16, 2022 23:07:37 GMT
Lol.
What where the lists like?
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