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Post by tomb on Oct 6, 2021 5:54:27 GMT
Pure Kraken for Goonhammer open U.K. Event?
Hi, I'm off to the Goonhammer open U.K. Event and I'm very close to taking pure Kraken...
Firstly I've played on the terrain maps a lot of times and yes Hive Guard are excellent but once they are shut down so is my game.
Ive noticed that more armies are likely to be shutting Hive Guard down sooner. Particularly Storm Boys and Vanguard Vets recently and before it was wyches. Without a master class in screening I don't think I can stop the inevitable. That's before planes get around.
The submission date is this Saturday I've had one game with the following list and lost 74 -79 against a team mates Tau!
The list is fun though and I'm not expecting to win many games in a shark tank of Orks, Sisters, Drukari and AdMech.
What are your thoughts on the list, am I mad dropping the HG on 'heavy' terrain boards? Any comments welcome, cheers.
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [105 PL, 1,999pts, 11CP] ++
+ Configuration [12CP] +
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]
Detachment Command Cost
Hive Fleet: Kraken
+ Stratagems [-1CP] +
Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]
+ HQ [25 PL, 450pts] +
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 210pts]: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons [20pts], Power: Paroxysm, Power: Smite, Power: Synaptic Lure, Prehensile Pincer Tail, Toxin Sacs [5pts], Wings [2 PL, 30pts], Xenogenic Acid
. Adaptive Physiology: Murderous Size
The Swarmlord [14 PL, 240pts]: Bone Sabres, Power: Catalyst, Power: Onslaught, Power: Smite, Prehensile Pincer Tail, Warlord
+ Troops [24 PL, 390pts] +
Genestealers [4 PL, 65pts]: Acid Maw, 5x Scything Talons
. 5x Genestealer [65pts]: 5x Rending Claws
Genestealers [4 PL, 65pts]: Acid Maw, 5x Scything Talons
. 5x Genestealer [65pts]: 5x Rending Claws
Genestealers [4 PL, 65pts]: Acid Maw, 5x Scything Talons
. 5x Genestealer [65pts]: 5x Rending Claws
Genestealers [4 PL, 65pts]: Acid Maw, 5x Scything Talons
. 5x Genestealer [65pts]: 5x Rending Claws
Genestealers [4 PL, 65pts]: Acid Maw, 5x Scything Talons
. 5x Genestealer [65pts]: 5x Rending Claws
Genestealers [4 PL, 65pts]: Acid Maw, 5x Scything Talons
. 5x Genestealer [65pts]: 5x Rending Claws
+ Elites [18 PL, 374pts] +
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]: Flesh Hooks, Grasping Talons, Rending Claws
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]: Flesh Hooks, Grasping Talons, Rending Claws
Zoanthropes [14 PL, 300pts]: Power: Psychic Scream, Power: Smite
. 6x Zoanthrope [300pts]: 6x Claws and Teeth
+ Fast Attack [24 PL, 510pts] +
Dimachaeron [12 PL, 255pts]: Massive Scything Sickle-talons, Scything Tail
Dimachaeron [12 PL, 255pts]: Massive Scything Sickle-talons, Scything Tail
+ Heavy Support [14 PL, 275pts] +
Barbed Hierodule [14 PL, 275pts]: 2x Bio-cannon, Hierodule Scything Talons
. Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis
++ Total: [105 PL, 11CP, 1,999pts] ++
Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)P
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Post by beetlejuice on Oct 6, 2021 9:59:57 GMT
I am not feeling zoanthropes in this meta. So many denies/MW saves and armies with insane volume of fire to rip through the invuln/catalyst. I’d prefer even non kronos HG over that. 6x5 GS seems strange. At least make 2-3 units hormagaunts for bodies/screening. I don’t expect to advance + charge more than 1-2 units per turn to steal objectives and by then double moving horms are in range anyway. If you drop zoans you could consider 2 medium sized units of stealers to actually have some screenclearing capabilites. 30 devilgants is another solid option.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 6, 2021 13:45:52 GMT
I mean, you lost to Tau, which is commonly taken as the worst or 2nd worst faction in the game barring John Lennon taking the wheels. An army that loses to Tau is... saying a lot.
The Zoeys are in a rough place - 50pts a piece for a floating sponge that does 2d3 MW a turn maybe that can be tied down by any form of screen, since falling back means it does nothing.
You should at least have a consolidated 15/20 man you can Sling, otherwise what's the point? 5GS don't kill 10 IG, but 10IG might actually kill 5GS.
How do you keep/hold objectives? You have a great ability to contest or steal, but not great ability to hold since nothing other than the Zoeys survive any level of attention.
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Post by No One on Oct 6, 2021 14:50:20 GMT
am I mad dropping the HG on 'heavy' terrain boards? Yes  . I'm 5-1 with 12 hive guard on terrain heavy boards (going 2nd 5 times), haven't ever regretted them. I sometimes have a unit get tagged, but it's usually late game and/or my own stuff up. Just double layer your screens, stops most tagging unless there's no LoS involved. You should at least have a consolidated 15/20 man you can Sling, otherwise what's the point? 5GS don't kill 10 IG, but 10IG might actually kill 5GS. Bully objectives and kill MSU. Are they tanky enough/killy enough to do either of these? Eh. Is this a viable army strategy? Maybe counter meta with good play? Would I recommend it at a tournament with one prac game? No. |
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Post by tomb on Oct 6, 2021 19:04:44 GMT
Thanks all.
@ Beetlejuice, I've found 5man Stealers to be great for tagging objectives with obsec whilst the bigger bugs do the clearance.
I'm hearing you on the dropping the 300pts of Zoey for more obsec. This is the first list I've played without my trusty horma gaunts. I dropped and swapped them for Stealers as Stealers can opperate after all my synapse is dead.
@ Kazatenade, I agree about the lack of ability to hold objectives, yep that was one of the reason for the Zoeys the other reason is as relatively tough to take overwatch for larger bugs and to shut down enemy shooting. Fall back and charge on the Zoeys is handy.
I do like the idea of a larger Stealer unit of 20 bodies I've found that Stealers over 5 man can be dropped by most return fire and cheap out of Los fire as easily as a five man squad. I haven't tried a big Stealer blob for a while.
I think the lack of ability to hold objectives is true of our codex and most older books.
Yep loosing to Tau is a little concerning. Loosing to the person playing the Tau (extreamly well in my opinion) is less so! I do admit that there where moves I should have made to reduce his scoring using charges to take out units I would normally have just shot off the board with no worries, so I could improve my game there. I did drop some points due to objectives conflicting with one another but I was looking for a baller play with smarmy that could have swung big but lost me three points in the end and I chose not to take the play back because we learn from our mistakes (sometimes)!
Ive found my Nids (Kraken Cronos standard jazz) usually score 70-85 points win or loss (apart from the blow out wins of 90+).
@no one is that 5-1 in a six round event (?), if so bloody good one, if not it's still damn good! I've been tempted to go to twelve hive guard I usually play a block of six and a spare three to gain a little extra coverage. But I think I may be loosing interest in Hive Guard (like I did with VolComs before switching back to my Nids). This may be why I'm seeing the negatives in the HG and or looking for play without them.
I do like your comments about, 'is it a viable strategy'? I'm not sure but I'm tempted to try it. And 'maybe counter meta with good play', I'm tempted to reply with 'challenge accepted'.
With the list submission so soon I think I'll be entering the event with a non fully practised list anyway. I've taken Kraken Cronos to two RTT's and three GT's in the last three months and not done great into the current meta anyway. Usually placing mid field.
Im going to look at what I can swap the Zoe's out for as that seems to be the consensus and look to buff the a Stealer unit.
Cheers all, any more ideas are welcome.
😋
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Post by No One on Oct 7, 2021 2:15:48 GMT
@no one is that 5-1 in a six round event (?), if so bloody good one, if not it's still damn good! Nah, but (sort) of: 1 comp pick up game, 4 league games in a pod, and then lost going into the elimination play offs (going 2nd against Freebooterz). So, I'll say 2 things here: - I don't know if a big blob fits with what you want to do - I don't think 5 man really cut it for what you want to do Basically, a big blob's a commitment in points, and for running into hard targets. But...you've already got a lot of melee threats for that, and they all sort of need Swarmy. On the flip side, a 5 man will sort of just bounce off a lot of things (i.e. basically everything) and if they're not a complete wet noodle (and even if they are) you're going to lose some/all on the backswing and possibly the objective. I'd say maybe one 16 man (at most), the rest a mix of 8/10/12 (for acid maws/blast/+1 A)? Means you can kill MSU reliably and not die, but...you're also quite expensive. |
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 7, 2021 4:18:29 GMT
I like the challenge you're taking on this - I think you can have pretty meta builds without HG, I did spend awhile trying to play with 12 Zoeys and can tell you that it just sucks if they can't do their minimum smite off. But they are extremely good at tying things down n being annoying.
Changes I would make would be to remove the zoey squad for 1x 30 man devilgants, then 2 Genestealer min size for 2 units of Hormagants x20 (or any other configuration you like), then keep your other 2 GS units as is. The bigger blobs of bodies won't be killing anything, but will be able to secure objectives that others are on while surviving to a turn of swinging. Maybe 2 turns. The GS would be able to upset and turn on medium nonobsec or small obsec, the Hormagants run rampant on obsec and have to burn a both an obsec giving abiliyy and a non-obsec ability on them to stop them (rather than just have a few obsec bodies walk onto the Zoeys). Our best bets at holding primaries are still the 30 man blobs, especially multiples of them.
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Post by tomb on Oct 7, 2021 6:09:39 GMT
Thanks all. Below is an updated list. No zoeys and a huge increase in obsec bodies that I feel good about. I usually spend CP to reserve a couple of units so I'm thinking of reserving the termigants and a unit of Stealers. This gives me another rod from the stealer unit and a counter attack shooting unit which will help a great deal with the lack of shooting in the rest of the list. Hormaguants can do some scoring and tagging the larger Stealer units may be able to take and hold objective until my next turn... Please can I ask for advice on using the out of reserve devil gaunt bomb. I haven't played devil gaunts for a good while I've seen that people put adrenal glands on them is this a must? Cheers! ++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [106 PL, 2,000pts, 11CP] +++ Configuration +Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) Detachment Command CostHive Fleet: Kraken + Stratagems +Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]+ HQ +Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 215pts]: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Power: Paroxysm, Power: Smite, Power: Synaptic Lure, Toxin Sacs, Wings, Xenogenic Acid . Adaptive Physiology: Murderous Size The Swarmlord [14 PL, 240pts]: Power: Catalyst, Power: Onslaught, Power: Smite, Warlord + Troops +Genestealers [8 PL, 130pts]: 2x Acid Maw, 10x Scything Talons . 10x Genestealer: 10x Rending Claws Genestealers [8 PL, 130pts]: 2x Acid Maw, 10x Scything Talons . 10x Genestealer: 10x Rending Claws Genestealers [8 PL, 104pts]: 2x Acid Maw, 8x Scything Talons . 8x Genestealer: 8x Rending Claws Hormagaunts [3 PL, 70pts]: Adrenal Glands . 10x Hormagaunt: 10x Scything Talons Hormagaunts [3 PL, 70pts]: Adrenal Glands . 10x Hormagaunt: 10x Scything Talons Termagants [9 PL, 182pts]. 26x Termagant (Devourer): 26x Devourer + Elites +Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]+ Fast Attack +Dimachaeron [12 PL, 255pts]Dimachaeron [12 PL, 255pts]+ Heavy Support +Barbed Hierodule [14 PL, 275pts]. Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis ++ Total: [106 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts] ++Created with BattleScribe |
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Post by No One on Oct 7, 2021 6:28:10 GMT
I haven't played devil gaunts for a good while I've seen that people put adrenal glands on them is this a must? Uhh...that's not something I've ever seen. I mean, I'd take a good odds charge from reserve with them, but 30 pts for just the +1, when you'll often just be shooting out whatever your charge target is? Eh. And +1" for Kraken advance tactic, similarly don't like. Just stick them in strat reserves, come up and shoot whatever important infantry your opponent has: focus on squishy scoring, but you can also go after non T8/2+ units with reasonable odds of doing OK damage. Solid into raiders to boot. Then lictor for if you've got no range/angles, and double tap if you've still got good targets. Also with Kraken you've got the option of sticking them on board, opportunistic+onslaught to just run up the board and delete some stuff T1. |
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 7, 2021 15:56:15 GMT
I usually think 10 GS is like the worst level to have them, cuz any overwatch that hits will probably drop the unit from 40A to 27A - but granted that Overwatch hasnt been as big an issue for a long time considering you need a strategem to overwatch now. Would feel a bit more comfortable with 12 per unit, but then Blast becomes a problem - so I guess leaving them at 10 is feasible.
Would ditch the 8 man squad though. Pop 4 more Termagants and 10 more Hormagants with the points (I estimate, may not be perfect accurate) in its place, so you either 3x10 for some serious objective stealing power, or a 1x20 for the objective wrap play, which will help you score Stranglehold (if you took that objective, assuming it doesnt contest EoAF which is like, Our Default) and keep a Primary Obj lead if you can wrap on an objective.
On the asides, Hormagants move 8 - they're as fast as Genestealers are. If Genestealers dont need AG, neither do Hormagants, even if it's potentially helpful, that 20-30pts if you can channel it into somewhere else, it would do more work for you. Assuming you kept the 3 GS squads, I would prefer Hormagants without AG if it would give me a 3rd x10 GS squad.
For the Devs out of deepstrike - dont think its necessary, like No One said. When you're Kraken, you can just run and Opportunistic Advance them + Onslaught them to have them double shoot and delete units that expose themselves. I would only reserve them if there's some heavy anti-infantry with decent range, and a lot of weak scoring that needs to be destroyed (this combination doesnt quite exist right now). As Kraken, you dont have the tools you need to wrack up the forced saves to really beat down on big models (you'll still do OK damage to them, but you wont be KO'ing them with double shoot I dont think, whereas Jorm and Kronos ones have a decent to good chance to do it with shoot twice), so there's no need to keep this unit super safe until its time to unload. This leaves your Lictors open to perform ROD at your convenience and even in the tiniest corner of any deployment zone (and saves you 2 CP).
One more - your list is VERY subsceptible to bouncing off Invuls. Dimachaerons, SuperFlyrant, and Swarmlords *ALL* bounce off Invul units that are a bit thick. Xenogenic should help a bit in mitigating it, but not for bigger multiwounds. I recall a very painful experience sending a Dimachaeron into those Harley jetbikes, and nothing died. I generally use 20 man Genestealers to deal with situations like that, since 80A is going to deal a number of wounds regardless of minor skews to hit and wound. So on a personal note, I would actually play only 1 Dimachaeron, and bulk up your troops like mad to compensate - The Dimachaeron would be used to perform a one-way suicide missle from across the map at the one target I think needs to die ASAP, and would otherwise be playing extremely cagey hanging out at the back of my deployment zone waiting for his turn to be launched. Considering the Barbed Heirodule though I dont think it's a bad plan to have 3 of these 18W monsters pushing the frontline at the same time, since they will all demand answers; just watch out for those resillient+invul units and try to chip and stay clear of them until they've been chipped down (or ignore them the whole game, that works too).
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Post by tomb on Oct 7, 2021 18:58:49 GMT
Thanks both.
Two options I'm considering... I'm feeling option two. The points come together nicely with this one. Giving options to reserve both units of Dev gaunts and Horms for 2cp plus a bonus pyrovore.
I haven't explored larger stealer units yet (points wise.
1 Guant blobs add scoring, wrapping and tarpittng.
b]+ Troops +[/b]
Genestealers [8 PL, 130pts]: 2x Acid Maw, 10x Scything Talons
. 10x Genestealer: 10x Rending Claws
Genestealers [8 PL, 130pts]: 2x Acid Maw, 10x Scything Talons
. 10x Genestealer: 10x Rending Claws
Hormagaunts [9 PL, 180pts]
. 30x Hormagaunt: 30x Scything Talons
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]
. 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
Termagants [9 PL, 210pts]
. 30x Termagant (Devourer): 30x Devourer
.......... Or.....
2 More Kraken shooting from Dev gaunts and an extra pyrovore (I have a soft spot for the lowly action monkey objective camping, lane blocking Pyrovore).
+ Troops +
Genestealers [8 PL, 130pts]: 2x Acid Maw, 10x Scything Talons
. 10x Genestealer: 10x Rending Claws
Genestealers [8 PL, 130pts]: 2x Acid Maw, 10x Scything Talons
. 10x Genestealer: 10x Rending Claws
Hormagaunts [3 PL, 60pts]
. 10x Hormagaunt: 10x Scything Talons
Hormagaunts [3 PL, 60pts]
. 10x Hormagaunt: 10x Scything Talons
Termagants [6 PL, 140pts]
. 20x Termagant (Devourer): 20x Devourer
Termagants [6 PL, 138pts]
. 19x Termagant (Devourer): 19x Devourer
. Termagant (Fleshborer)
+ Elites +
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]
Pyrovores [1 PL, 28pts]: Pyrovore
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 8, 2021 16:19:12 GMT
Option 2 is more vulnerable to these Freebooterz Ork vehicular lists, esp with Dakkajets out and about, but otherwise I like it more personally. My setup is usually 1x30, 1x20, 2-3x10, it lines up very similarly.
Otherwise, it looks pretty there, take it out and good luck!
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Post by tomb on Oct 9, 2021 18:28:17 GMT
Thanks.
The final submitted list.
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [105 PL, 2,000pts, 11CP] ++
+ Configuration [12CP] +
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]
Detachment Command Cost
Hive Fleet: Kraken
+ Stratagems [-1CP] +
Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]
+ HQ [25 PL, 455pts] +
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 215pts]: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons [20pts], Adrenal Glands [5pts], Power: Paroxysm, Power: Smite, Power: Synaptic Lure, Prehensile Pincer Tail, Toxin Sacs [5pts], Wings [2 PL, 30pts], Xenogenic Acid
. Adaptive Physiology: Murderous Size
The Swarmlord [14 PL, 240pts]: Bone Sabres, Power: Catalyst, Power: Onslaught, Power: Smite, Prehensile Pincer Tail, Warlord
+ Troops [38 PL, 686pts] +
Genestealers [8 PL, 130pts]: 2x Acid Maw, 10x Scything Talons
. 10x Genestealer [130pts]: 10x Rending Claws
Genestealers [12 PL, 156pts]: 3x Acid Maw, 12x Scything Talons
. 12x Genestealer [156pts]: 12x Rending Claws
Hormagaunts [3 PL, 60pts]
. 10x Hormagaunt [60pts]: 10x Scything Talons
Hormagaunts [3 PL, 60pts]
. 10x Hormagaunt [60pts]: 10x Scything Talons
Termagants [6 PL, 140pts]
. 20x Termagant (Devourer) [140pts]: 20x Devourer [40pts]
Termagants [6 PL, 140pts]
. 20x Termagant (Devourer) [140pts]: 20x Devourer [40pts]
+ Elites [4 PL, 74pts] +
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]: Flesh Hooks, Grasping Talons, Rending Claws
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]: Flesh Hooks, Grasping Talons, Rending Claws
+ Fast Attack [24 PL, 510pts] +
Dimachaeron [12 PL, 255pts]: Massive Scything Sickle-talons, Scything Tail
Dimachaeron [12 PL, 255pts]: Massive Scything Sickle-talons, Scything Tail
+ Heavy Support [14 PL, 275pts] +
Barbed Hierodule [14 PL, 275pts]: 2x Bio-cannon, Hierodule Scything Talons
. Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis
++ Total: [105 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts] ++
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Post by tomb on Oct 27, 2021 11:53:00 GMT
So the Goonhammer event was a blast.
Some super nice people in attendance and running the joint.
Big up to Mat and Tom the other Nid players in attendance, congrats Mat on taking best in faction.
And thanks to all my opponents and those who had kind words to say about Hive Fleet Icharus.
I'll try to do a blow by blow game recap at some point but six games is a fair amount of work to write up.
Basically: The Double Dima + Barbie list was a lot of fun to take to a major. Yes I missed the hive guard.
Game 1- Loss to Sisters, he got first deleted Barbie I couldn't shift the big blob of sisters from the centre, especially after Swarm failed a four in charge to support a Dima.
Game 2 - Win into sisters, I got first moved all the big bugs up, he melted a Dima and Smashrant in return, Barbie kept pushing up and murderlated Morgan Vahl! Gaunts held the other side but wrapping a Rhino with repentia in it. Repentia desperate broke out Stealers killed em.
Game 3 - Loss to Greyknights, 2GM 3DK, I was tired derped on my third secondary by forgetting DK's are vehicles and not taking Bring. We traded big bugs for baby carriers whilst I tried to push for one of his objectives. Dev gaunts can't kill marines in light,heavy,dense cover. But the did take out Drago, nice.
Game 4 - Win into Raven wing, he didn't have much in the way of obsec just bikes I took No Pris and tried to delete his bikes. Smashrant failed a five inch charge leaving Barbie to do the work into his attack bikes. She did before they both got melted. Dima's ate contempors, termis and bikes. Dev gaunts deleted a Chaplin on bike, nice.
Game 5 - Loss to Mat's Kraken Stealer list with 12 hive guard. I played too defensively thinking that 12 hiveguard could delete my big bugs before they got to swing. In hindsight I should have rushed him, Kraken hive guard probs aren't that scary. Mat and I exchanged Nid tactics over the game and I'm glad he got the win to give him best in faction.
Game 6 - Loss to Death Guard, big bugs went in hard to push his right most objective and inti his 'to the last' PBC's. Pox walkers didn't give up thier objective to a Dima - I was hoping to proc the FNP then chew through the unit, I won't try that again. Barbie got entropy cannoned turn 1. Both Dima's hit all three PBC's killed two tagged the last one but died in return. I hadn't been able to shoot spawn of an objective in light, heavy,dense cover so I had to send the Stealers in who did but the flesh mowers deleted them in return. I just couldn't do enough damage to the army as a whole nor could I take his objective or score my third secondary which depended on taking that objective.
Lessons learnt, Big bugs are serious fun but have to be used as agro as possible. Nids realy need thier own secondary objectives we don't have the staying power to compete for book secondary objectives that require objective taking and holding.
Sadly I probably could have won more games by picking my third secondary better.
I was invited to display my army for the Painting Nomination which at a major is a big win for me.
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Post by zimko on Oct 27, 2021 12:58:01 GMT
Good effort. Now it's time to completely change it up and play with new rules, lol. What do you think you'll use now?
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. I'm 5-1 with 12 hive guard on terrain heavy boards (going 2nd 5 times), haven't ever regretted them. I sometimes have a unit get tagged, but it's usually late game and/or my own stuff up. Just double layer your screens, stops most tagging unless there's no LoS involved. 
