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Post by hiveoverall on Apr 6, 2021 9:36:12 GMT
I'm inclined to put Barbed Hierodules in the Kronos Patrol. Sure they lose 6+++ but they can make better use of Symbiostorm than the Hive Guard since the Hierodules are mobile gun batteries. They can move to get a better angle on something and avoid dense cover. And if you don't need to move then they can of course benefit from rerolling 1s, and the Hive Guard can still be ultra good for the games where they can shoot freely. Thanks again for all your comments !
I will try my next game without any kronos patrol (see list below), full leviathan, using warriors as objective holders, speed bumps, or S4 saturation with the double scy tals.
Yeah so I won't be able to shoot at stuff out of LOS anymore (no hive guards), but I think the resiliance of so many 6+++ wounds and the counter punch of 4 monsters (hive tyrant + dima + 2 barbed H) should offer some nice play. The mawloc will be my disruption piece, haven't tried one in quite some time. The Maleceptor will ensure I live trough enemy fire a bit more, as I will be taking punches on that front, but not giving many back. PLus, I have the CP for it (same as mawloc) since I won't be using single minded on anything.
What do you guys think ? I think this iteration is the first I am very happy with, the only thing I don't like is the low model count. I could get rid of the dima and the ripper swarms and take 60 basic termas instead but then I would really be low on overall damage output.
I have points left over for a paire of BS or a lash whip + BS on one warrior lol (game changer !)
DETACHMENT : Bataillon Levi HQ1 : Hive Tyrant(1*155), Griffes tranchantes monstrueuses (deux paires, Hive Tyrant) (20), [PA3] Barbe de Résonnance, Déferlante, Paroxysme [175] HQ2 : [Seigneur de Guerre] Neurothrope(1*95), Hurlement Psychique [95] Troup1 : 5 Tyranid Warriors(51 + 2*17) [85] Troup2 : 5 Tyranid Warriors(51 + 2*17) [85] Troup3 : 5 Tyranid Warriors(51 + 2*17) [85] Troup4 : 3 Ripper Swarms(36) [36] Troup5 : 3 Ripper Swarms(36) [36] Elite1 : Lictor(1*37) [37] Elite2 : Lictor(1*37) [37] Elite3 : Maleceptor(1*170), Catalyseur [170] Elite4 : 5 Zoanthropes(150 + 2*50), L'Horreur [250] FA1 : [FW] Dimachaeron(1*230) [230] HS1 : [FW] Barbed Hierodule(1*275), [Physiologie Adaptative Monstre] Symbiose Dermique, Trait PA supp. (-1 PC) [275] HS2 : [FW] Barbed Hierodule(1*275), [Physiologie Adaptative Monstre] Symbiose Dermique [275] HS3 : Mawloc(1*125) [125] Total detachment : 1996
ARMY TOTAL [1996]
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Apr 6, 2021 19:50:02 GMT
1x30 DevGants really seem like they could be of use in the list, you lack volume of attacks for getting through blobs or -1Dmg abilities and they could be the body count you want to steal an obj the next turn. The Dima seems horribly out of place, the lack of SL and/or Kraken practically kills a T1 charge. I don't like it's chances of survival either, the T7 will probably make it the target of shooting over either Hierodule. I think trading out the Dima for the DevGants would balance the list a little more, and allow you to put at least 2 lw's in each warrior unit (can drop to 27 DevGants to give all wars lw/st loadouts).
Otherwise, I like the list. I'd try something very similar if I owned Hierodules.
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Post by hiveoverall on Apr 7, 2021 9:06:58 GMT
1x30 DevGants really seem like they could be of use in the list, you lack volume of attacks for getting through blobs or -1Dmg abilities and they could be the body count you want to steal an obj the next turn. The Dima seems horribly out of place, the lack of SL and/or Kraken practically kills a T1 charge. I don't like it's chances of survival either, the T7 will probably make it the target of shooting over either Hierodule. I think trading out the Dima for the DevGants would balance the list a little more, and allow you to put at least 2 lw's in each warrior unit (can drop to 27 DevGants to give all wars lw/st loadouts). Otherwise, I like the list. I'd try something very similar if I owned Hierodules. Thanks for your imput, but for next time I would rather try out the warriors against chaff, with this lnew list here below. You are right the dima is out of play, I kicked it out for a second unit of zoathropes. The idea is to push the warriors forward along with both units of zoanthropes, and inflict mortal wounds on what comes to meet them. The list really has a lot of smiting potential. The broodlord will suicide into anything problematic, and I have the CP (single detachment) for the fight again strat. For the the -1 damage stuff I will just have to count on my smiting potential. In any case the DG or DA match ups are really hard for nids, whatever way you put it. They are tier 1 we are tier 2, we can win but we will never be on a favourable MUp, not against good players.
I think this last list here below really uses leviathan's 6+++ to its maximum with all those 3 wound infantry midsized nids. It is a very simple list too lol.
What do you think piersonsmuppet ? Again, we will just have to agree to disagree on leviathan devilgaunts (kraken or kronos devilgaunt sound very good though) DETACHMENT : Bataillon Levi HQ1 : BroodLord(1*125), [PA3] Barbe de Résonnance, Onslaught[125] HQ2 : [Seigneur de Guerre] Neurothrope(1*95), Psychic scream [95] Troup1 : 3 Ripper Swarms(36) [36] Troup2 : 3 Ripper Swarms(36) [36] Troup3 : 5 Tyranid Warriors(51 + 2*17) [85] Troup4 : 5 Tyranid Warriors(51 + 2*17) [85] Troup5 : 5 Tyranid Warriors(51 + 2*17) [85] Troup6 : 4 Tyranid Warriors(51 + 1*17) [68] Elite1 : Lictor(1*37) [37] Elite2 : Maleceptor(1*170), Catalyseur [170] Elite3 : 5 Zoanthropes(150 + 2*50), Paroxysme [250] Elite4 : 5 Zoanthropes(150 + 2*50), L'Horreur [250] HS1 : [FW] Barbed Hierodule(1*275), [Physiologie Adaptative Monstre] Symbiose Dermique [275] HS2 : [FW] Barbed Hierodule(1*275), [Physiologie Adaptative Monstre] Symbiose Dermique, Trait PA supp. (-1 PC) [275] HS3 : Mawloc(1*125) [125] Total detachment : 1997 ARMY TOTAL [1997]
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Apr 7, 2021 14:04:11 GMT
My DevGants have done so much work for me (I play a single Levi detachment usually), that I'm not sure I'll ever run a list w/o them unless they get slapped with a pts increase. The smites could work, but smites on blobs are pretty limited in effect (a 3D smite killing 3 5pt models is VERY meh). Another downside of relying too heavily on smite, you lose the ability to just shoot around the closest visible unit. Warriors offensive output isn't enough for me to want to rely on them to clear an obj, and you will probably need to use 2+ units to flip a blobbed obj.
I personally don't think Kraken DevGants are much better than other fleets. Starting on the board you are still spending 1 CP to double advance, 30 is difficult to hide, and I imagine there are times when just not enough of the unit can see the intended target. I'm happy to pay the CP to keep them 100% safe and all on target. Kronos are okay, but you are forced to deploy w/in 12" of your symbiostorm to make them any better than other hive fleets. Jorm is where they shine. Jorm's power gives a big boost in offensive output, and also helps them shoot through -1 to-hit in worst case scenarios (Kronos can't boast that). WL trait is great to blow infantry out of cover. Even get a nice defense boost to keep the number up for then next turn.
Agree to disagree, but I would like to be proven wrong about the warriors. I've never had a chance to use 2xst against blobs as I only play SM's, and seeing them perform well would give me motivation to test MSU warriors (I only ever have one unit w/ lw's to roadblock).
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Post by hiveoverall on Apr 7, 2021 22:08:36 GMT
My DevGants have done so much work for me (I play a single Levi detachment usually), that I'm not sure I'll ever run a list w/o them unless they get slapped with a pts increase. The smites could work, but smites on blobs are pretty limited in effect (a 3D smite killing 3 5pt models is VERY meh). Another downside of relying too heavily on smite, you lose the ability to just shoot around the closest visible unit. Warriors offensive output isn't enough for me to want to rely on them to clear an obj, and you will probably need to use 2+ units to flip a blobbed obj. I personally don't think Kraken DevGants are much better than other fleets. Starting on the board you are still spending 1 CP to double advance, 30 is difficult to hide, and I imagine there are times when just not enough of the unit can see the intended target. I'm happy to pay the CP to keep them 100% safe and all on target. Kronos are okay, but you are forced to deploy w/in 12" of your symbiostorm to make them any better than other hive fleets. Jorm is where they shine. Jorm's power gives a big boost in offensive output, and also helps them shoot through -1 to-hit in worst case scenarios (Kronos can't boast that). WL trait is great to blow infantry out of cover. Even get a nice defense boost to keep the number up for then next turn. Agree to disagree, but I would like to be proven wrong about the warriors. I've never had a chance to use 2xst against blobs as I only play SM's, and seeing them perform well would give me motivation to test MSU warriors (I only ever have one unit w/ lw's to roadblock). Ok you are convincing me to try again the dev gaunts even as leviathan then. Not next game though (Saturday), but perhaps the one after. We agree on Jorm, but I don’t see myself playing Jorm anytime soon unfortunately, too little use outside of that and the WLT means you only have one PA adaptation. warriors with double scytals won’t be too good against marines, but marines are not too meta anymore, and where I play, people are not bringing many so... BTW so your devilgaunts work on SM ? Because for le they have the same issue as warriors, strengh 4 0Ap. I guess the obsec blob is the thing that works for you against them then ?
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Apr 8, 2021 0:20:06 GMT
DevGants into SM has worked very well for me, and are one of my top units against them outside Zoanthropes (these guys are champs!). They rock Primaris units, as they already wound on a 4+, and I find they take a 5-man squad off an objective every time...so far. Levi DevGants can avg ~8.5 failed saves on MEQ stat lines. I've cleared a full 5-man intercessor/infiltrator unit off an obj a few times, but normally 2-4 fall in the first volley, and SMA cleans up the rest. They are great against dreads too, they outdo Hive Guard in avg damage since they ignore the -1dmg. On top of the damage output (which is strong against many things our best bugs struggle with), they are bodies for Obj sec. I've usually had 10-15 left after return fire and possible morale phase, and that is plenty to double move and steal an opponent-held obj. Heck I've shot down 3 intercessors in cover, charged the leftovers, denied VP, and scored VP with the handful that survived another shooting phase (obviously an edge case). The big thing is they always affect scoring, and that's what wins games. I've even been considering taking a second unit over Hive Guard in a wonky obj focused list, mainly due to the issues transhuman causes for anything S5+trying to clear objectives (local meta is mostly SM still).
In regards to Jorm, I could take or leave the WL trait. Use really depends on if objectives have light cover close enough, but it is a great safety net. Cover decreases DevGant failed saves by 50%, and that is a huge drop. The loss of a second physiology on a monster can be lessened by strategic reserves or a Maleceptor. Outside of Hive Guard, nids don't have the opportunity to ignore cover. Can be huge in fringe cases (like space wolves) where they can grant cover to monsters/vehicles.
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Post by hiveoverall on Apr 8, 2021 14:34:48 GMT
DevGants into SM has worked very well for me, and are one of my top units against them outside Zoanthropes (these guys are champs!). They rock Primaris units, as they already wound on a 4+, and I find they take a 5-man squad off an objective every time...so far. Levi DevGants can avg ~8.5 failed saves on MEQ stat lines. I've cleared a full 5-man intercessor/infiltrator unit off an obj a few times, but normally 2-4 fall in the first volley, and SMA cleans up the rest. They are great against dreads too, they outdo Hive Guard in avg damage since they ignore the -1dmg. On top of the damage output (which is strong against many things our best bugs struggle with), they are bodies for Obj sec. I've usually had 10-15 left after return fire and possible morale phase, and that is plenty to double move and steal an opponent-held obj. Heck I've shot down 3 intercessors in cover, charged the leftovers, denied VP, and scored VP with the handful that survived another shooting phase (obviously an edge case). The big thing is they always affect scoring, and that's what wins games. I've even been considering taking a second unit over Hive Guard in a wonky obj focused list, mainly due to the issues transhuman causes for anything S5+trying to clear objectives (local meta is mostly SM still). In regards to Jorm, I could take or leave the WL trait. Use really depends on if objectives have light cover close enough, but it is a great safety net. Cover decreases DevGant failed saves by 50%, and that is a huge drop. The loss of a second physiology on a monster can be lessened by strategic reserves or a Maleceptor. Outside of Hive Guard, nids don't have the opportunity to ignore cover. Can be huge in fringe cases (like space wolves) where they can grant cover to monsters/vehicles. OK so in the end I will ditch the maleceptor, and try the devilgaunts, in this final version of the list, what do you think piersonsmuppet ? I can't fit more than 22 devilgaunts but on WTC tables, which are very heavy on terrain, you don't really have room to shoot more than 20 or so (with their shabby 18 range guns). I start with 11 cp so I can use single minded without even needing it to be maxed (by maxed I mean shooting 30 gaunts twice) DETACHMENT : Bataillon Levi HQ1 : Hive Tyrant(1*155), Griffes tranchantes monstrueuses (deux paires, Hive Tyrant) (20), [PA3] Barbe de Résonnance, Catalyseur, Déferlante [175] HQ2 : [Seigneur de Guerre] Neurothrope(1*95), Hurlement Psychique [95] Troup1 : 3 Ripper Swarms(36) [36] Troup2 : 3 Ripper Swarms(36) [36] Troup3 : 22 Termagants(50 + 12*5), 22 Dévoreur(44) [154] Troup4 : 5 Tyranid Warriors(51 + 2*17) [85] Troup5 : 5 Tyranid Warriors(51 + 2*17) [85] Troup6 : 5 Tyranid Warriors(51 + 2*17) [85] Elite1 : Lictor(1*37) [37] Elite2 : Lictor(1*37) [37] Elite3 : 5 Zoanthropes(150 + 2*50), L'Horreur [250] Elite4 : 5 Zoanthropes(150 + 2*50), Paroxysme [250] HS1 : [FW] Barbed Hierodule(1*275), [Physiologie Adaptative Monstre] Symbiose Dermique, Trait PA supp. (-1 PC) [275] HS2 : [FW] Barbed Hierodule(1*275), [Physiologie Adaptative Monstre] Symbiose Dermique [275] HS3 : Mawloc(1*125) [125] Total detachment : 2000 ARMY TOTAL [2000]
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Apr 8, 2021 16:22:38 GMT
With the DevGants outflanking (always reserve unless in Kraken, even then prob reserve), 2 Lictors and 1 Mawloc, you could probably drop to 1 Ripper to bump up to 27 DevGants. 22 can still do some good work, but will fail to clear an objective even with SMA on occasion. Another option would be to drop the Tyrant to a Broodlord for 29 DevGants, which I think I favor a little more since you don't have wings on the Tyrant with WTC terrain. I've had similar terrain density to the WTC tables, and I find I can get 30 to shoot more often than not. Pheromone Trails is probably the most important CP spent during a match when taking DevGants in a list. Big thing on denser terrain I've found is that the opponent can deny SMA LOS more easily. So I guess 22 vs 30 comes down to how your opponents play. Do they often take models off obj to break LOS, or are they open to sacrificing models to keep objs control? 30 makes them more likely to pull LOS models to save bodies, and helps the gants deny VP without needing to spend CP on SMA. I've tried only 20 in 1500pt matches a few times, and have wished I made room for the full 30 every time. (still did work, but most games have the 1 body left after SMA or breaking LOS from first volley problem coupled w/ the opp using the auto morale Strat to stay on the obj)
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Post by hiveoverall on Apr 8, 2021 19:43:20 GMT
I considered the broodlord, but ended up on nope. No tankyness, and no threat to damage -1 targets, and if not kraken, isn’t even that fast. WTC terrain density is not an issue for walkrant, the base is not that big. The flyrant is tough to hide behind obscuring terrain, and very expensive. I will see what 22 devil gaunts do, and perhaps I will try more of them the game after. As for thé ripper swarms, their main role is to screen my back line against deep striking stuff. I will only deep strike them against an opponent who has no deep striking threats or secondaries requiring getting into my deployment zone. So I need two unites, one on each side
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Post by zimko on Apr 8, 2021 20:02:43 GMT
The Flyrant can hide behind obscuring terrain the same as a walkrant. In fact it's easier with a flyrant because their speed lets them move to further positions behind obscuring.
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Post by hiveoverall on Apr 8, 2021 21:57:19 GMT
The Flyrant can hide behind obscuring terrain the same as a walkrant. In fact it's easier with a flyrant because their speed lets them move to further positions behind obscuring. The wings spread sidewards and will stick out, but you are right about the speed enabling the flush rant to go look for better cover. Anyway if I had the points for a flyrant instead the question would be relevant, but I don’t, so it is not zimko any other thoughts on the list ?
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Post by zimko on Apr 8, 2021 22:14:34 GMT
The wings do not interfere with obscuring. A model is obscured as long as the shooting unit can not draw a line to the BASE without passing thru the obscuring terrain.
As for the list, I'd rather have Hormagaunts than warriors but there isn't a huge difference. I just prefer the speed.
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Post by zimko on Apr 8, 2021 22:31:11 GMT
I might be totally wrong on the obscuring thing. That's how Art of War has been playing it. I'm asking around in the competitive circles to see if I can get an explanation for why they play it that way.
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Post by zimko on Apr 8, 2021 22:50:08 GMT
Ya I am wrong. It's Dense Cover that cares about the model's base. Obscuring does not. So that is an advantage to walkrants.
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Post by kwisatzhaderach on Apr 9, 2021 4:47:28 GMT
The wings do not interfere with obscuring. A model is obscured as long as the shooting unit can not draw a line to the BASE without passing thru the obscuring terrain. As for the list, I'd rather have Hormagaunts than warriors but there isn't a huge difference. I just prefer the speed. What are your thoughts on 2x scytal Warriors with Adrenal glands vs Hormagaunts? A unit of 3 is 54 points vs 60 for the Hormagaunts. If they both advance, Hormas are just 1" faster, but are significantly less durable. It's something I've been thinking about lately.
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