|
Post by hiveoverall on Apr 9, 2021 8:02:11 GMT
Ya I am wrong. It's Dense Cover that cares about the model's base. Obscuring does not. So that is an advantage to walkrants. Ah thanks for confirming this (both for dense and boscuring), you had me doubting there. Indeed it is an advantage to walrants (especially when playing cagey), but I still agree with you on that the flyrant can move to safer, or more interesting spots (especially if you give hime psychic scream. Also when playing leviathan, a flyrant with psychic scream needs protection, because he is going to get focused down. So to that effect, the leviathan warlord trait enables ro reroll a failed roll, which means reroll a failed save when taking for example a multimelta wound (at least when I play it, it is aalways a reroll on a save !). That does mean losing an dermic symbiosis on something.
So the walkrant (to whom you don't give psychic scream) is more expendable, and for now I prefer it.
|
|
|
Post by hiveoverall on Apr 9, 2021 8:11:25 GMT
The wings do not interfere with obscuring. A model is obscured as long as the shooting unit can not draw a line to the BASE without passing thru the obscuring terrain. As for the list, I'd rather have Hormagaunts than warriors but there isn't a huge difference. I just prefer the speed. What are your thoughts on 2x scytal Warriors with Adrenal glands vs Hormagaunts? A unit of 3 is 54 points vs 60 for the Hormagaunts. If they both advance, Hormas are just 1" faster, but are significantly less durable. It's something I've been thinking about lately. I have been thinking about it too, but the hormas have the 6' instead of 3' thing, which really helps with movement shenanigans. Also you can streach 30 hormas into a line that will move block your opponent if you have first turn (if you don't it doesn't really work against a decent opponent). You can't do such a long line with warriors. Anyway this horma line works well when playing kraken, otherwise not so much.
But yes when advancing, gland warriors move nearly as fast as hormas, which is good when you go for primary objectives and you want to cover them in warrior bodies to prevent enemy models from outnumbering you (when doing that, every inch can count). I prevents being totally screwed by that "1" on the advance roll (turning it into a "2").
|
|
|
Post by zimko on Apr 9, 2021 23:13:06 GMT
I like hormagaunts over warriors for a couple reasons. - There may be situations where Banners is a better secondary than Scramblers (if you can easily hold 2 objectives for the whole game, then banners gives you 10 points, same as scramblers. So you might as well take banners for the chance at up to 15 points). Often times, having an 8" move vs a 6" moves is the difference between deploying a banner on turn 1 vs turn 2 (or having to use a CP to metabolic to do it). So I like that extra 2" normal move before needing to advance. - The 6" pile-in and consolidate is very handy in the right situation.
But warriors have their advantages too. They dont need synapse and they don't give up many points to Thin the Ranks. But these are minor differences.
As for resiliency... I think both are equally resilient. Where Warriors die to 3 attacks that deal 3 damage, hormagaunts survive. Where Hormagaunts die to a 12 shot weapon, warriors MIGHT survive (but could still die). I'm not inclined to consider warriors resilient without an adaptation and CP.
|
|
|
Post by hiveoverall on Apr 9, 2021 23:35:55 GMT
I like hormagaunts over warriors for a couple reasons. - There may be situations where Banners is a better secondary than Scramblers (if you can easily hold 2 objectives for the whole game, then banners gives you 10 points, same as scramblers. So you might as well take banners for the chance at up to 15 points). Often times, having an 8" move vs a 6" moves is the difference between deploying a banner on turn 1 vs turn 2 (or having to use a CP to metabolic to do it). So I like that extra 2" normal move before needing to advance. - The 6" pile-in and consolidate is very handy in the right situation. But warriors have their advantages too. They dont need synapse and they don't give up many points to Thin the Ranks. But these are minor differences. As for resiliency... I think both are equally resilient. Where Warriors die to 3 attacks that deal 3 damage, hormagaunts survive. Where Hormagaunts die to a 12 shot weapon, warriors MIGHT survive (but could still die). I'm not inclined to consider warriors resilient without an adaptation and CP. Leviathan warriors don’t die too hard to 3 damage attacks...
|
|
|
Post by zimko on Apr 10, 2021 2:06:56 GMT
true, I haven't played levi.
|
|
|
Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Apr 10, 2021 12:48:25 GMT
Depends upon how often you're rolling 6s. I've definitely lost games due to well below average number of 6s. I think it might take 4 attacks on average of 3 damage to kill a leviathan warrior?
|
|
|
Post by piersonsmuppet on Apr 10, 2021 20:05:33 GMT
It takes 1.53 failed saves to kill a Levi Warrior that has not popped Chitin w/ 3D attacks. Probability of failed saves needed to drop a warrior: 1--50%, 2--47%, and 3--3%. So a 3-man unit of Levi Warriors would need 4.59 failed saves. W/ Chitin popped, it takes 2.34 failed saves to kill 1 Levi Warrior, so ~7 failed saves for a 3-man. Number of attacks would be hard to extrapolate unless you name specific weapon profiles, i.e. 8.3 overcharged plasma attacks w/ 3+ BS needed for the 3-man.
|
|
|
Post by hiveoverall on Apr 10, 2021 22:34:48 GMT
So I finally went for a barbed and a scythed, with the following list. I was up against a Custodes, si my 5*5 naked warriors couldn’t do much aside from cap objectives and die there. They however did that just fine, which enabled my zoanthropes and my barbs to live (WWStand), as mu opponent was fearful I would get away with too many primary points if he didn’t kill them. Good job I went for a scythed and a Barbed, because I was able to use the scythed H’s speed to double move him with the strat (the one that prevents shooting and assaulting, metabolism something) to contest an objective in top right corner, where his tank was, the kill the tank turn 3. The acidfex was useless, I should have gone with a mawloc, but hey, at least I gave it another try. Perhaps acid fex is ok if you can give him dermic, but as he degrades he becomes a threat to only squishy targets, and without an invul, those 14 wounds go down fast (even with 6+++ from leviathan). Hadn’t tried one in 9h, but I must say the smaller tables makes the acid 18 range rather ok. Anyway I won by a landslide, but custodes is a good MU for us, so... the hierdules having toughness 8 compared to dimachaerons having 7 is a huge deal in the current meta. A Dima would have been in trouble in this game, but the maleceptor strat ensured my opponent didn’t want to go for the dukes with his strengh 8 d6 damage missiles on his dawn eagle bikes. the walkrant was great, I wouldn’t have wanted wings. Also I was happy I took 6 and not 5 zoeys, this way I charged them into the FW winged duded custodes have (their version of winged tyranid warriors hah hah) and didn’t mind one going down per turn as a result. I chose domination WWStand and scramblers, and maxed all but domination (still, 12 is good !). i will get rid of the tyranofex and try a mawloc instead for next game, but I don’t know what to do with the 50 points left.
On the leviathan thing, I didn’t roll very hot but The few wounds it enabled me to save made a huge difference this game (tyranofex left with 2 and maleceptor also after getting charged gave prevented my stuff behind them from getting tagged). Of course kraken feels a lot more useful, and I really hope our next codex will hand out better fleet traits, but until then I liked playing more cagey nids than the kraken variants. Cant wait to see warriors on less tanky stuff than custodes.
DETACHMENT : Bataillon Levi HQ1 : Hive Tyrant(1*155), Glandes surrénales (Monstres)(5), Griffes tranchantes monstrueuses (deux paires, Hive Tyrant) (20), [PA3] Barbe de Résonnance, Déferlante, Paroxysme [180] HQ2 : [Seigneur de Guerre] Neurothrope(1*95), Hurlement Psychique [95] Troup1 : 3 Ripper Swarms(36) [36] Troup2 : 5 Tyranid Warriors(51 + 2*17) [85] Troup3 : 5 Tyranid Warriors(51 + 2*17) [85] Troup4 : 5 Tyranid Warriors(51 + 2*17) [85] Troup5 : 5 Tyranid Warriors(51 + 2*17) [85] Troup6 : 5 Tyranid Warriors(51 + 2*17) [85] Elite1 : Lictor(1*37) [37] Elite2 : Lictor(1*37) [37] Elite3 : Maleceptor(1*170), Catalyseur [170] Elite4 : Pyrovores(28) [28] Elite5 : 6 Zoanthropes(150 + 3*50), L'Horreur [300] HS1 : [FW] Barbed Hierodule(1*275), [Physiologie Adaptative Monstre] Symbiose Dermique, Trait PA supp. (-1 PC) [275] HS2 : [FW] Scythed Hierodule(1*235), [Physiologie Adaptative Monstre] Symbiose Dermique [235] HS3 : Tyrannofex(1*170), Glandes surrénales (Monstres)(5), Fluide acide(5) [180] Total detachment : 1998
ARMY TOTAL [1998]
|
|
|
Post by zimko on Apr 10, 2021 23:29:57 GMT
So how do you feel about the Barbed Hierodule? And how about the Scythed Hierodule? Was there a lot of terrain? Did you feel constricted by the large base size?
|
|
|
Post by kwisatzhaderach on Apr 11, 2021 1:10:41 GMT
I've only played a few games with Hierodules but they feel pretty lackluster without an additional defensive buff from the Maleceptor or Malanthrope. Just my personal experience so far. I think I might try out that one Aussie list that had Jorm Barbed Hierodules with a lot of defensive tools.
|
|
|
Post by hiveoverall on Apr 11, 2021 6:47:10 GMT
So how do you feel about the Barbed Hierodule? And how about the Scythed Hierodule? Was there a lot of terrain? Did you feel constricted by the large base size? This was my third game with dules, but the first with two. The terrain is an issue no doubt, as are your own models and you opponent models (bases can get 8n the way of your charges very easily) but if you know in advance where you will move them it is ok. They are not great when it comes to reacting to a move you didn’t anticipate from you opponent, specifically because of their base size. Barbed shoots ok but nothing too great, especially on the densely covered WTC tables I play on with my team. Scythed shoots comparatively if you shoot on stuff that has -1 to get hit. barbed doesn’t fight that well because of 4 attacks, we really need something to give +1 to hit in melee in our next codex (don’t tell me custom fleet lol). Scythed fights ok with 6 attacks. As kwisatzhaderach said, they are not worth taking without the maleceptor strat, which enables them to shrug off multimelta like shots in the first two turns. That means going monofleet for the CP i think. Also they pair well with playing 5*5 naked leviathan warriors, which are so cheap they don’t care much about dying to melta, and can withstand high rate of fire damage 1 weapons (or 2 with the strat, which I used a lot yesterday) Overall kraken Dima is ATM a lot more efficient I think, but the type of list I played has something going, most definitely. Perhaps a lot more tweaks are needed though.
|
|
|
Post by niiai on Apr 11, 2021 8:12:21 GMT
It takes 1.53 failed saves to kill a Levi Warrior that has not popped Chitin w/ 3D attacks. Probability of failed saves needed to drop a warrior: 1--50%, 2--47%, and 3--3%. So a 3-man unit of Levi Warriors would need 4.59 failed saves. W/ Chitin popped, it takes 2.34 failed saves to kill 1 Levi Warrior, so ~7 failed saves for a 3-man. Number of attacks would be hard to extrapolate unless you name specific weapon profiles, i.e. 8.3 overcharged plasma attacks w/ 3+ BS needed for the 3-man. Regarding leviathan warriors: My opponent is much less enthusiastic about shooting into them with 3 damage weapons with the knowledge that it is around 42% chance to shrug it off if it passes saves. This means 3 damage weapons often goes elsewhere.
|
|
|
Post by kwisatzhaderach on Apr 11, 2021 22:25:29 GMT
After pondering my last couple losses, here's a list I've been theorycrafting, but this time around Scythed Hierodules.
It doesn't have the dev bomb, but with 2 scythed hierodules, that should be a decent amount of anti-horde firepower. It's definitely a skew list that has a pretty strong close combat element while also being resilient with multiple T8 monsters. Most models in the army have an invulnerable save which is very nice against all the Drukhari I've been seeing.
+++ Tyranid Monster Mash 9th Test 2000 (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [108 PL, -2CP, 1,999pts] +++
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [79 PL, 1,454pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Detachment Command Cost
Hive Fleet: Kraken
+ HQ +
Neurothrope [5 PL, 95pts]: Power: Onslaught, Resonance Barb, Warlord
The Swarmlord [14 PL, 270pts]: Power: Catalyst, Power: Paroxysm
+ Troops +
Tyranid Warriors [4 PL, 54pts]: Adrenal Glands . Tyranid Warrior: 2x Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: 2x Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: 2x Scything Talons
Tyranid Warriors [4 PL, 54pts]: Adrenal Glands . Tyranid Warrior: 2x Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: 2x Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: 2x Scything Talons
Tyranid Warriors [4 PL, 51pts] . Tyranid Warrior: 2x Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: 2x Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: 2x Scything Talons
+ Fast Attack +
Dimachaeron [12 PL, 230pts]
Dimachaeron [12 PL, 230pts]
+ Heavy Support +
Scythed Hierodule [12 PL, 235pts]
Scythed Hierodule [12 PL, 235pts]
++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Tyranids) [29 PL, -2CP, 545pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]
Hive Fleet: Kronos
+ HQ +
Neurothrope [5 PL, 95pts]: Power: Symbiostorm
+ Troops +
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] . 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
+ Elites +
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]
+ Heavy Support +
Exocrine [9 PL, 170pts] . Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis
Exocrine [9 PL, 170pts] . Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis
|
|
|
Post by hiveoverall on Apr 13, 2021 13:44:05 GMT
Not a bad list ! But I would give dermic to the scythed Hdules. They really are not durable (or playable, because of the degrade table) without it.
Let the exocrines die, once they have shot they are good to eat up enemy anti armour shots and die. Let them distract your foes (aka "dinner") away for the dules.
|
|
|
Post by piersonsmuppet on Apr 13, 2021 15:20:56 GMT
I'd think the Dima's & Exo's would eat more fire than the Dules. Being tabled won't affect their ability to horde clear much due to auto-hits. I think trading a Exo for a Maleceptor in the Kraken detachment could do wonders. You have a lot of bodies that will benefit from the Malceptor strat, and it adds a boosted Smite & poss a better body for Catalyst. Wish PO MW's were equivalent to Mawloc's TftD w/ an equivalent strat, would give the choice of smite/2nd power vs PO actual meaning. Would probably need to reserve the 1 Exo every match just to make sure you get some good use of it, but T2 should leave a lot of threats to it dead or tied up by another monster. Would allow you to put the Dermics on the Dules as well, giving everything starting on the table except the Warriors an invul save. The patrol is probably still worth it for the super effective Exo and Deepest Shadow.
|
|