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Post by hiveoverall on Apr 1, 2021 12:47:33 GMT
Hi fellow hive minds !
So after seeing quite a few double barbed (or triple barbed for that aussie winning Jormun list) hierdule lists, I thought "yes, well with only AP2 and damage 2, we need something to get through that armour and help hold mid board objectives". So i tried fitting zoanthropes in and came up with this TAC list for my game saturday against a very comp White Scars player (not tailored against WS at all):
DETACHMENT : Bataillon Leviathan HQ1 : Neurothrope, Catalyst, WLord [95] HQ2 : Neurothrope, [PA3] Resonnance Barb, Psy scream [95] Troup1 : 10 Hormagaunts [60] Troup2 : 3 Ripper Swarms [36] Troup3 : 10 Hormagaunts [60] Elite1 : 5 Zoanthropes, The Horror [250] Elite2 : 5 Zoanthropes, Paroxysm [250] Elite3 : Lictor [37] HS1 : [FW] Barbed Hierodule(1*275), [Physiologie Adaptative Monstre] Dermic Symbiosis, [275] HS2 : [FW] Barbed Hierodule(1*275), [Physiologie Adaptative Monstre] Symbiose Dermique (-1 PC) [275] Total detachment : 1433 DETACHMENT : Patrol Kronos HQ1 : Neurothrope, [Kronos] Symbio storm [95] Troup1 : 3 Ripper Swarms [36] Elite1 : 5 Hive Guards, 5 Impaler Canons [225] Elite2 : Lictor [37] HS1 : Exocrine [170] Total detachment : 563
ARMY TOTAL [1996]
I have only played triple dima lists lately (and Dark angels hah hah, but i wanted to get back to nids anyway for a bit) so this will be a total shift for me. Dima lists tend to fold hard against multimelta heavy lists, or morty, and i don't think they will be great vs new drukari hotness.
The list is tanky and had lots of MW potential, but may struggle against fast CC lists (harlequins, slaneesh triple KoS...), and can't do much vs a dark angel list either. I hope to do OK against other match ups though.
Secondaries would be: deploy scrambled eggs, WWStand or grind them down (depending on opponent's ability to down the barbed hierodules and "MSU" or not), and a third one which will be hard to achieve, perhaps engage on all fronts if I can hide ripper swarms but not sold on this.
What do you guys think ? This list is perfectible before saturday, but I need help, I haven't ever played two barbed H, and haven't used zoathropes in a loooong time.
I will rename this post after the game, with a title like "feedback on double barbed lists", and try to keep this thread going for a bit.
My meta is quite hard, so if you guys think the concept doesn't hold, feel free to say so, I don't mind criticism at all !
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Post by zimko on Apr 1, 2021 13:39:08 GMT
I think you'll also have a hard time vs a cultist/oblit list. Or Necrons. You don't have a lot of volume of fire. It would be really nice if you could fit in a devgant bomb. Perhaps dropping the Exocrine and a Rippers unit?
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Post by hiveoverall on Apr 1, 2021 14:40:05 GMT
I think you'll also have a hard time vs a cultist/oblit list. Or Necrons. You don't have a lot of volume of fire. It would be really nice if you could fit in a devgant bomb. Perhaps dropping the Exocrine and a Rippers unit? That is a good idea, I could just get rid of the kronos patrol then (losing the deepest shadow strat is big though, but 2 CP gained is huge ! And I can get rid of that kronos neuro too and get points for something else). BTW, what do people use as a way to deploy the devgaunt bomb from reserve ? outflank ? Lictor + pheromone trail ?
Another way to get high RoF 0 ap shots, instead of devgaunt bomb, is a hive tyrant replacing a neuro, with 4 devourers and the PA relic for +8 range and a hit reroll + wound reroll, but the devgaint bomb seems more useful, as you have 30 bodies to remove from an objective on top of the "bomb" factor
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Post by zimko on Apr 1, 2021 14:56:02 GMT
Usually you use 1 CP to put the devgants into strategic reserves. Then you have the option of outflanking them, or arriving within 6" of a lictor with Pheromone Trail. Another way to play them is to start them on the board behind obscuring terrain. Then when a target is available, advance them forward, cast onslaught, and shoot. But this is much more effective for a Kraken list where you can double advance them pretty reliably for 18", giving them a much larger threat range. 9 times out of 10 its better to just put them in reserves.
I like this list though. It can play much more defensively than the Kraken variants and still get you points with while we stand or grind them down.
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Post by hiveoverall on Apr 1, 2021 20:53:39 GMT
Usually you use 1 CP to put the devgants into strategic reserves. Then you have the option of outflanking them, or arriving within 6" of a lictor with Pheromone Trail. Another way to play them is to start them on the board behind obscuring terrain. Then when a target is available, advance them forward, cast onslaught, and shoot. But this is much more effective for a Kraken list where you can double advance them pretty reliably for 18", giving them a much larger threat range. 9 times out of 10 its better to just put them in reserves. I like this list though. It can play much more defensively than the Kraken variants and still get you points with while we stand or grind them down. Thanks ! So following your advice I have come up with this: DETACHMENT : Bataillon Leviathan HQ1 : Neurothrope, Catalyst, WLord [95] HQ2 : Neurothrope, [PA3] Resonnance Barb, Psy scream [95] Troup1 : 10 Hormagaunts [60] Troup2 : 29 devilgaunts [203] Troup3 : 10 Hormagaunts [60] Elite1 : 5 Zoanthropes, The Horror [250] Elite2 : 5 Zoanthropes, Onslaught [250] Elite3 : Lictor [37] Elite4 : Lictor [37] Elite5 : 5 hive guard [225] Elite6 : 3 hive guard [135] HS1 : [FW] Barbed Hierodule(1*275), [Adaptative] Dermic Symbiosis, [275] HS2 : [FW] Barbed Hierodule(1*275), [Adaptative] Symbiose Dermique (-1 CP) [275] Total detachment : 1997 ARMY TOTAL [1997] i love it, it is much more swarmy for starters, more bodies, and the list seems indeed quite tanky. Since onslaught only has the devilgaunts to target, I think against some opponents they can start on the board behind a large ruin or other L shaped thing infantry can move through. I hesitate to put a mawloc instead of 3 HG, but I think I need more indirect shots because without kronos just 5 won’t do much. what do you guys think ? Is this worth losing the kronos patrol ?
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Post by hiveoverall on Apr 2, 2021 10:13:14 GMT
Keeping the Kronos patrol, I come up with this : DETACHMENT : Bataillon Leviathan HQ1 : Neurothrope, Catalyst, WLord [95] HQ2 : Neurothrope, [PA3] Resonnance Barb, Psy scream [95] Troup1 : 10 termagaunts[50] Troup2 : 19 devilgaunts [133] Troup3 : 10 Hormagaunts [60] Elite1 : 5 Zoanthropes, The Horror [250] Elite2 : 4 Zoanthropes, Onslaught [200] Elite3 : Lictor [37] Elite4 : Lictor [37] HS1 : [FW] Barbed Hierodule(1*275), Dermic Symbiosis, [275] HS2 : [FW] Barbed Hierodule(1*275), Dermic Symbiosis, (-1 CP) [275] Total detachment : 1507
DETACHMENT : Patrol Kronos HQ1 : Neurothrope, [Kronos] Symbio storm [95] Troup1 : 3 Ripper Swarms [36] Elite1 : 5 Hive Guards, 5 Impaler Canons [225] Elite2 : 3 Hive Guards, 3 Impaler Canons [225] Total detachment : 491
ARMY TOTAL [1998]
I can dispel with the deepest shadow stuff like Death Hex or "move twice" spells, and the hive guards become a lot more lethal. No exocrine but eh, f.. it I guess. I have only 19 devilqaunts, but I think that is ok with all the strengh 8 damage 2 shots I have elswhere, as well as all the mortals.
What do you guys think ?
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Post by beetlejuice on Apr 2, 2021 11:09:54 GMT
Drop the 3 hive guard, fill up the 5 man, get an extra zoan for the 4 man and more devilgants for the points. You want 20+ for wound reroll and better SMA utility
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Post by hiveoverall on Apr 2, 2021 13:37:35 GMT
Drop the 3 hive guard, fill up the 5 man, get an extra zoan for the 4 man and more devilgants for the points. You want 20+ for wound reroll and better SMA utility Yeah I guess you are right, and I totally forgot about the reroll "1s" to wound if <20
You woudl go for kronos patrol or 100% leviathan (I posted one list with each option) ?
Here it goes for the last kronos patrol version: PLAYER : Addnid
DETACHMENT : Bataillon Levi HQ1 : Neurothrope(1*95), [PA3] Barbe de Résonnance, Hurlement Psychique [95] HQ2 : [Seigneur de Guerre] Neurothrope(1*95), Catalyseur [95] Troup1 : 10 Termagants(50) [50] Troup2 : 25 Termagants(50 + 15*5), 25 Dévoreur(50) [175] Troup3 : 10 Hormagaunts(60) [60] Elite1 : Lictor(1*37) [37] Elite2 : Lictor(1*37) [37] Elite3 : 5 Zoanthropes(150 + 2*50), L'Horreur [250] Elite4 : 5 Zoanthropes(150 + 2*50), Déferlante [250] HS1 : [FW] Barbed Hierodule(1*275), [Physiologie Adaptative Monstre] Symbiose Dermique [275] HS2 : [FW] Barbed Hierodule(1*275), [Physiologie Adaptative Monstre] Symbiose Dermique, Trait PA supp. (-1 PC) [275] Total detachment : 1599
DETACHMENT : Patrouille Kro HQ1 : Neurothrope(1*95), [Kronos] Tempête symbiotique [95] Troup1 : 3 Ripper Swarms(36) [36] Elite1 : 6 Hive Guards(105 + 3*35), 6 Canon empaleur(60) [270] Total detachment : 401
ARMY TOTAL [2000]
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Post by beetlejuice on Apr 2, 2021 16:09:29 GMT
Yeah that looks good. Imo symbiostorm, rerolls, and kronos strat are worth 2 CP. You mainly want CP for SMA, metabolic overdrive and rerolls so I think you should be good. Put 1 lictor in kronos of you’re not too bothered keeping them apart (for deepstriking and poping strat)
Sidenote: absolutely loving all the french names, just roll off the tongue so nicely
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Post by garg on Apr 4, 2021 11:39:48 GMT
Looks like a good list, for Tyranids it's got good resilience. You're pretty thin on obsec bodies but the toughness of your units could make up for it. The one change i would make is to switch the resonance barb to the catalyst Neuro but that's just my preference.
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Apr 4, 2021 17:54:58 GMT
Yeah that looks good. Imo symbiostorm, rerolls, and kronos strat are worth 2 CP. You mainly want CP for SMA, metabolic overdrive and rerolls so I think you should be good. Put 1 lictor in kronos of you’re not too bothered keeping them apart (for deepstriking and poping strat) Sidenote: absolutely loving all the french names, just roll off the tongue so nicely Technically, Symbiostorm, re-rolls, and the strat are costing you 2 CP and 95pts for the HQ. I also disagree they are worth it, though I think it really depends on terrain. I play with several Dense Cover pieces of terrain almost every game, and my opponents like to force me to shoot through those with the HG. Symbio doesn't do anything when shooting at a -1 to-hit, so I'm only keen on using it with Exo's or Prime'd Warriors. Also, if the HG get hit by an opponents ignore LOS shooting, that 2 CP and 95pts become noticeably not worth it real quick. My 2 cents is to roll the HG/Rippers back into the Battalion and use the Nuero's pts to fill out the DevGants and retool the troops section slightly with the 60pts left-over. I would probably go with 2x10 gaunts, 1x3 rippers, 30 DevGants, 1x3 warriors (I think that stays under 2000pts). Again though, this advice highly depends on the amount of Dense Cover you predict will be on the table.
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Post by beetlejuice on Apr 4, 2021 20:29:12 GMT
Yeah that looks good. Imo symbiostorm, rerolls, and kronos strat are worth 2 CP. You mainly want CP for SMA, metabolic overdrive and rerolls so I think you should be good. Put 1 lictor in kronos of you’re not too bothered keeping them apart (for deepstriking and poping strat) Sidenote: absolutely loving all the french names, just roll off the tongue so nicely Technically, Symbiostorm, re-rolls, and the strat are costing you 2 CP and 95pts for the HQ. I also disagree they are worth it, though I think it really depends on terrain. I play with several Dense Cover pieces of terrain almost every game, and my opponents like to force me to shoot through those with the HG. Symbio doesn't do anything when shooting at a -1 to-hit, so I'm only keen on using it with Exo's or Prime'd Warriors. Also, if the HG get hit by an opponents ignore LOS shooting, that 2 CP and 95pts become noticeably not worth it real quick. My 2 cents is to roll the HG/Rippers back into the Battalion and use the Nuero's pts to fill out the DevGants and retool the troops section slightly with the 60pts left-over. I would probably go with 2x10 gaunts, 1x3 rippers, 30 DevGants, 1x3 warriors (I think that stays under 2000pts). Again though, this advice highly depends on the amount of Dense Cover you predict will be on the table. valid points for sure. On the wrong table or a bad matchup they wont do much. It’s just that some games they will straight up solo win for you and that’s worth the risk imo. All units in our book have hard counters. The kronos strat can also be such a lifesaver I don’t want to leave home without it vs psyker armies. If your opponent is trying to hide behind dense cover they are likely handicapping themselves movement wise and nids just excel at outmanuevering. Guess it comes down to playstyle and preference
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Post by hiveoverall on Apr 4, 2021 20:40:52 GMT
Yeah that looks good. Imo symbiostorm, rerolls, and kronos strat are worth 2 CP. You mainly want CP for SMA, metabolic overdrive and rerolls so I think you should be good. Put 1 lictor in kronos of you’re not too bothered keeping them apart (for deepstriking and poping strat) Sidenote: absolutely loving all the french names, just roll off the tongue so nicely Technically, Symbiostorm, re-rolls, and the strat are costing you 2 CP and 95pts for the HQ. I also disagree they are worth it, though I think it really depends on terrain. I play with several Dense Cover pieces of terrain almost every game, and my opponents like to force me to shoot through those with the HG. Symbio doesn't do anything when shooting at a -1 to-hit, so I'm only keen on using it with Exo's or Prime'd Warriors. Also, if the HG get hit by an opponents ignore LOS shooting, that 2 CP and 95pts become noticeably not worth it real quick. My 2 cents is to roll the HG/Rippers back into the Battalion and use the Nuero's pts to fill out the DevGants and retool the troops section slightly with the 60pts left-over. I would probably go with 2x10 gaunts, 1x3 rippers, 30 DevGants, 1x3 warriors (I think that stays under 2000pts). Again though, this advice highly depends on the amount of Dense Cover you predict will be on the table. The game ended in a draw, but you absolutely right, because of all the -1 to hit (I did get a few shots on targets where symbioS helped but not much) the kronos patrol wasn’t worth it AT ALL hah hah. But first, thanks all of you who have stepped into the discussion, very good points here and there, and I must say I have no certainties on nids at the moment (nids with 2 barbed hierodules, and without any dimachaerons). a third barbed hierodule would be handy but ind9nt want to invest. So as to my game yesterday, My opponent transformed his eversor assassin in a Culexus for two CP, and the damn thing cost me the win. Also, this I kind of a hard counter if you can’t remove the culexus quickly (where is that acidfex or scythed H or that mawloc when you need them !) I think for my next game I will just take 5 hive guards to kill remote fragile targets and not necessarily bother with kronos. I didn’t like reserving the devogaunts, I think starting them on the table as kraken with the 3d6 choose best and the strat for double advance is much better. The unit is too large to fit on 9th Ed tables and the 9 inch distance you need to keep fr9m enemy units when deepstrike. I guess it is worth it in a Jormun detachment with the reroll to hit, otherwise it is not worth the hassle and the cp expenditure. i think I may try this list next time (some words are French but honestly all terms are transparent, DETACHMENT : Bataillon Levi HQ1 : Neurothrope(1*95), Hurlement Psychique [95] HQ2 : Hive Tyrant(1*155), Rending claws monstrueuses, 2 Dévoreur à neuro-sangsues(20), [PA3] Barbe de Résonnance, Onslaught, Paroxysme [175] Troup1 : 30 Termagants(50 + 20*5) [150] Troup2 : 3 Tyranid Warriors(51) [51] Troup3 : 27 Termagants(50 + 17*5) [135] Elite1 : 5 Hive Guards(105 + 2*35), 5 Canon empaleur(50) [225] Elite2 : Lictor(1*37) [37] Elite3 : Lictor(1*37) [37] Elite4 : 5 Zoanthropes(150 + 2*50), L'Horreur [250] Elite5 : Maleceptor(1*170), Catalyseur [170] HS1 : [FW] Barbed Hierodule(1*275), [Physiologie Adaptative Monstre] Symbiose Dermique, Trait Psychic A supp. (-1 Cp) [275] HS2 : [FW] Barbed Hierodule(1*275), [Physiologie Adaptative Monstre] Symbiose Dermique [275] HS3 : Mawloc(1*125) [125] Total detachment : 2000 ARMY TOTAL [2000] I will be using caustic blood on the germas if they get charged, and on squad will double move turn 1 if I need to get on a primary ASAP. With the maleceptor strat they can withstand a bit of fire (and leviathan 6+++ helping) or so I hope. The idea is too go for a lot of resilience, as much as an 8ed codex can at least. Perhaps I should free up some points for more termagaunts, to really get some mileage out of the maleceptor Or try again devogaunts, I do need the strengh 4 shots as I don’t have any horde clearing capability
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Apr 5, 2021 2:31:19 GMT
Technically, Symbiostorm, re-rolls, and the strat are costing you 2 CP and 95pts for the HQ. I also disagree they are worth it, though I think it really depends on terrain. I play with several Dense Cover pieces of terrain almost every game, and my opponents like to force me to shoot through those with the HG. Symbio doesn't do anything when shooting at a -1 to-hit, so I'm only keen on using it with Exo's or Prime'd Warriors. Also, if the HG get hit by an opponents ignore LOS shooting, that 2 CP and 95pts become noticeably not worth it real quick. My 2 cents is to roll the HG/Rippers back into the Battalion and use the Nuero's pts to fill out the DevGants and retool the troops section slightly with the 60pts left-over. I would probably go with 2x10 gaunts, 1x3 rippers, 30 DevGants, 1x3 warriors (I think that stays under 2000pts). Again though, this advice highly depends on the amount of Dense Cover you predict will be on the table. valid points for sure. On the wrong table or a bad matchup they wont do much. It’s just that some games they will straight up solo win for you and that’s worth the risk imo. All units in our book have hard counters. The kronos strat can also be such a lifesaver I don’t want to leave home without it vs psyker armies. If your opponent is trying to hide behind dense cover they are likely handicapping themselves movement wise and nids just excel at outmanuevering. Guess it comes down to playstyle and preference The problem is not that the unit gets countered, a Kronos HG (58% hit chance) is almost the same as any other Fleet's HG (50% hit chance) when shooting with a -1 to hit. The problem is the main attraction from paying 2 CP, selecting the Kronos psyker power, and paying a 95pt HQ tax can be countered by only having 1 Symbiostorm target AND some appearance of terrain, unit rules, stratagems, powers, etc. If Symbiostorm were to be in line with 9th ed codices unmodified 6+, I think a 3 unit Kronos patrol of Neuro, ripper, HG would have much more merit. @op: Change the MRC to MST on the tyrant, MRC is not worth the pts saved with increased W characteristics in 9th. Taking the Tyrant into 2W, let alone 3W, models can be pretty lackluster. The flat 3D from MST is well worth the 10pts to consistently kill models when saves are failed. You can use the 2CP saved from ditching the patrol to give the Tyrand full wound re-rolls when needed.
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Post by zimko on Apr 5, 2021 18:17:02 GMT
I'm inclined to put Barbed Hierodules in the Kronos Patrol. Sure they lose 6+++ but they can make better use of Symbiostorm than the Hive Guard since the Hierodules are mobile gun batteries. They can move to get a better angle on something and avoid dense cover. And if you don't need to move then they can of course benefit from rerolling 1s, and the Hive Guard can still be ultra good for the games where they can shoot freely.
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