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Post by TheDeepestShadow on Dec 31, 2020 19:21:25 GMT
Well.. I guess if you don't count that they cost more per model, have shorter range, only strength 3 instead of 4, max out at 20 per unit instead of 30, are't in the Tyranid codex and can't be taken without a separate detachment, and can't use SMA. Aside from all that ... EVERY aspect... yeah... I get that acolytes are MUCH better in melee, don't need synapse, are easier to deep strike, and all, but seriously there IS a tradeoff. If you are running a Tyranid list, it makes sense to bring the unit in the Tyranid codex. Also the difference between Str 3 and 4 is enormous. It is possibly the single most important point of strength increase in the game aside from MAYBE 2 to 3. It vastly broadens the potential targets. Don't get me wrong, the hand flamer acolyte bomb is pretty hot, but it is absolutely NOT better in EVERY aspect and there is still a place for the gaunt bomb. - 10 pts vs 9 pts - 12" vs 18" But you can deploy >3" if you wish but it's irrelevant when you factor that it's a free unconditional deepstrike that doesn't need a Taxi like the Trygon - S3 vs S4 is irrelevant when the damage output is the same or BETTER for S3 thanks to autohit and completely irrelevant when you factor T5 (only T6/T7 which is...non-existent in non Vehicles/CM make a difference but both are dogshit against that profile anyway) - Maxing out at 20 rather than 30 is irrelevant, I factored 20 HF against 30 Devilgaunts and the latter are WORSE at dealing damage (20 HF Acolytes do 5% to 15% more damage than 30 Devilgaunts for 200 pts rather than 270 and at same sized units from 55% to 65%) Do math first before speaking pls Chill out a bit dude, it's not like he (please do not swear) in your cereal. It's great that you did the math but you don't need to be a dick about it. You also didn't address the points of needing a separate detachment/strats/etc (ie. the extra detachment would also come with the HQ tax making even your first bullet not as cut and dry). Your claim was "Gaunt bomb is just a plain worse HF Acolytes unit in EVERY aspect, no reason to use it", and he gave you reasons. Math for damage output is not the only thing that matters, and also shouldn't be a requirement to post a position unless it is. |
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Post by kurtangle2 on Dec 31, 2020 19:35:11 GMT
- 10 pts vs 9 pts - 12" vs 18" But you can deploy >3" if you wish but it's irrelevant when you factor that it's a free unconditional deepstrike that doesn't need a Taxi like the Trygon - S3 vs S4 is irrelevant when the damage output is the same or BETTER for S3 thanks to autohit and completely irrelevant when you factor T5 (only T6/T7 which is...non-existent in non Vehicles/CM make a difference but both are dogshit against that profile anyway) - Maxing out at 20 rather than 30 is irrelevant, I factored 20 HF against 30 Devilgaunts and the latter are WORSE at dealing damage (20 HF Acolytes do 5% to 15% more damage than 30 Devilgaunts for 200 pts rather than 270 and at same sized units from 55% to 65%) Do math first before speaking pls Chill out a bit dude, it's not like he (please do not swear) in your cereal. It's great that you did the math but you don't need to be a dick about it. You also didn't address the points of needing a separate detachment/strats/etc (ie. the extra detachment would also come with the HQ tax making even your first bullet not as cut and dry). Your claim was "Gaunt bomb is just a plain worse HF Acolytes unit in EVERY aspect, no reason to use it", and he gave you reasons. Math for damage output is not the only thing that matters, and also shouldn't be a requirement to post a position unless it is. Sorry but I can't stand in 2021 (almost) having people STILL considering the Devilgaunts as an option when there's a much better alternative already available for less points that unlocks many options that simply aren't available to Tyranids; when playing Tyrs I'd like to do something entirely different that GSC can't provide rather than having the poorer version of something that already exists. In regards to the "PROs" of the Devilgaunts there is none in this very moment so no, they are plain worse in every aspect |
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Post by purestrain on Dec 31, 2020 19:35:26 GMT
Well.. I guess if you don't count that they cost more per model, have shorter range, only strength 3 instead of 4, max out at 20 per unit instead of 30, are't in the Tyranid codex and can't be taken without a separate detachment, and can't use SMA. Aside from all that ... EVERY aspect... yeah... I get that acolytes are MUCH better in melee, don't need synapse, are easier to deep strike, and all, but seriously there IS a tradeoff. If you are running a Tyranid list, it makes sense to bring the unit in the Tyranid codex. Also the difference between Str 3 and 4 is enormous. It is possibly the single most important point of strength increase in the game aside from MAYBE 2 to 3. It vastly broadens the potential targets. Don't get me wrong, the hand flamer acolyte bomb is pretty hot, but it is absolutely NOT better in EVERY aspect and there is still a place for the gaunt bomb. - 10 pts vs 9 pts - 12" vs 18" But you can deploy >3" if you wish but it's irrelevant when you factor that it's a free unconditional deepstrike that doesn't need a Taxi like the Trygon - S3 vs S4 is irrelevant when the damage output is the same or BETTER for S3 thanks to autohit and completely irrelevant when you factor T5 (only T6/T7 which is...non-existent in non Vehicles/CM make a difference but both are dogshit against that profile anyway) - Maxing out at 20 rather than 30 is irrelevant, I factored 20 HF against 30 Devilgaunts and the latter are WORSE at dealing damage (20 HF Acolytes do 5% to 15% more damage than 30 Devilgaunts for 200 pts rather than 270 and at same sized units from 55% to 65%) Do math first before speaking pls Not in a hive fleet, not subject to useful movement shenanigans (swarmy, double move) Have to be off the board t1 to be effective in the same manner. 30 gaunts with -1 hit and -1 str stratagem are no joke to shift, think about it. Aren't immune to leadership through generic means (NEED patty to force auto pass) Cult does have reinforcements over nids, but I'll bet that'll change in the new DeX. Gaunts do what gaunts do, just needs a minor price reduction (1 or 2 ppm) or devs should be a 2 point cost (akin to warriors moving from devs to spitters) Also, they have no double shooting ability, you still perform 40 odd percent better vs 180 shots? |
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Post by kurtangle2 on Dec 31, 2020 19:40:33 GMT
- 10 pts vs 9 pts - 12" vs 18" But you can deploy >3" if you wish but it's irrelevant when you factor that it's a free unconditional deepstrike that doesn't need a Taxi like the Trygon - S3 vs S4 is irrelevant when the damage output is the same or BETTER for S3 thanks to autohit and completely irrelevant when you factor T5 (only T6/T7 which is...non-existent in non Vehicles/CM make a difference but both are dogshit against that profile anyway) - Maxing out at 20 rather than 30 is irrelevant, I factored 20 HF against 30 Devilgaunts and the latter are WORSE at dealing damage (20 HF Acolytes do 5% to 15% more damage than 30 Devilgaunts for 200 pts rather than 270 and at same sized units from 55% to 65%) Do math first before speaking pls Not in a hive fleet, not subject to useful movement shenanigans (swarmy, double move) Have to be off the board t1 to be effective in the same manner. 30 gaunts with -1 hit and -1 str stratagem are no joke to shift, think about it. Aren't immune to leadership through generic means (NEED patty to force auto pass) Cult does have reinforcements over nids, but I'll bet that'll change in the new DeX. Gaunts do what gaunts do, just needs a minor price reduction (1 or 2 ppm) or devs should be a 2 point cost (akin to warriors moving from devs to spitters) - Subject to Movement Shenanigans when you know they are 30 T3 6+ wounds that can't stay alive at all? Are you really playing with bad players that can't easily clear a mass of terrible models like this? - -1 to Hit as if you would even have a Malanthrope nearby the same turn they deepstrike alongside a Trygon: I would like to laugh so hard in front of you for ever thinking about spending so many points and opportunity costs whilst I could use the Malanthrope near Dimachaerons and Hierodules with MUCH GREATER effect and options - Immune to leadership is worthless when they get erased by ANYTHING (10 Puny Guardsmen clear 7,708 in RF and FRF,SRF and they aren't even a good unit this edition anymore so I wonder how they would fare against anything a bit more competitive) - Gaunts do what gaunts do which is being shot off the table at the minimum cost possible: the moment you spread away from that role and decide to DOUBLE the cost for a WORSE version of a HF Acolyte is the moment you know something is very wrong |
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Post by infornography on Dec 31, 2020 20:00:49 GMT
Listen, I don't think anyone, myself included, is arguing that devilgaunts are better than HF acolytes in a vacuum, but the points you are still utterly failing to address of them actually being Tyranid units so that they don't necessitate bringing in a whole other detachment as well as some of the buffs Tyranids provide them, are actually important.
If you want to tack on the added cost of transporting and providing synapse, then you would also need to consider the added overhead needed to bring the acolytes along at all. Plus I will remind you that your statement, that I objected to was EVERY aspect. I have provided a list of aspects that individually are better in the devilgaunt platform. I never claimed that devilgaunts were all around better or could out damage acolytes, just that there are quite a few aspects that they have that are better. YOU were the one making the sweeping generalization.
You don't think Devilgaunts are worthy of consideration, fine I will happily debate that, but your initial point was demonstrably incorrect and no amount of special pleading will change that. At this point I think it would be fair to assume you meant that devilgaunts are worse in gestalt than hand flamer acolytes and that if you are open to bringing two detachments so you can include GSC options, it would be silly to bring devilgaunts. THAT is a statement I can agree to. If you are trying to say that devilgaunts, as an option when solely looking at the Tyranid codex are still not worthwhile, then I would argue against that, but I would concede that they are slightly overcosted and lack an efficient transport option.
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Post by kurtangle2 on Dec 31, 2020 20:05:18 GMT
Listen, I don't think anyone, myself included, is arguing that devilgaunts are better than HF acolytes in a vacuum, but the points you are still utterly failing to address of them actually being Tyranid units so that they don't necessitate bringing in a whole other detachment as well as some of the buffs Tyranids provide them, are actually important. If you want to tack on the added cost of transporting and providing synapse, then you would also need to consider the added overhead needed to bring the acolytes along at all. Plus I will remind you that your statement, that I objected to was EVERY aspect. I have provided a list of aspects that individually are better in the devilgaunt platform. I never claimed that devilgaunts were all around better or could out damage acolytes, just that there are quite a few aspects that they have that are better. YOU were the one making the sweeping generalization. You don't think Devilgaunts are worthy of consideration, fine I will happily debate that, but your initial point was demonstrably incorrect and no amount of special pleading will change that. At this point I think it would be fair to assume you meant that devilgaunts are worse in gestalt than hand flamer acolytes and that if you are open to bringing two detachments so you can include GSC options, it would be silly to bring devilgaunts. THAT is a statement I can agree to. If you are trying to say that devilgaunts, as an option when solely looking at the Tyranid codex are still not worthwhile, then I would argue against that, but I would concede that they are slightly overcosted and lack an efficient transport option. Even when not considering GSC Codex Devilgaunts are some of the worst choices Tyr offers with bad to mediocre damage output and the worst survivability in the game point for point (only Spore Mines are actually worse) |
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Post by TheDeepestShadow on Dec 31, 2020 20:16:02 GMT
Not in a hive fleet, not subject to useful movement shenanigans (swarmy, double move) Have to be off the board t1 to be effective in the same manner. 30 gaunts with -1 hit and -1 str stratagem are no joke to shift, think about it. Aren't immune to leadership through generic means (NEED patty to force auto pass) Cult does have reinforcements over nids, but I'll bet that'll change in the new DeX. Gaunts do what gaunts do, just needs a minor price reduction (1 or 2 ppm) or devs should be a 2 point cost (akin to warriors moving from devs to spitters) - Subject to Movement Shenanigans when you know they are 30 T3 6+ wounds that can't stay alive at all? Are you really playing with bad players that can't easily clear a mass of terrible models like this? - -1 to Hit as if you would even have a Malanthrope nearby the same turn they deepstrike alongside a Trygon: I would like to laugh so hard in front of you for ever thinking about spending so many points and opportunity costs whilst I could use the Malanthrope near Dimachaerons and Hierodules with MUCH GREATER effect and options - Immune to leadership is worthless when they get erased by ANYTHING (10 Puny Guardsmen clear 7,708 in RF and FRF,SRF and they aren't even a good unit this edition anymore so I wonder how they would fare against anything a bit more competitive) - Gaunts do what gaunts do which is being shot off the table at the minimum cost possible: the moment you spread away from that role and decide to DOUBLE the cost for a WORSE version of a HF Acolyte is the moment you know something is very wrong In order of your points: - If you can't hide your gaunts for even the first turn and/or provide enough threat saturation that they would get wiped immediately, that's a problem with terrain and list design, and possibly even how you deploy. Just chalking it up to playing against "bad players" is disingenuous. - Where did he say that he was keeping a Malanthrope next to a Trygon? His previous point was literally about how the acolytes have to start in deepstrike to be effective, whereas gaunts do not. - Again, if you're in a position where the Devilgants didn't get to get even one round of shooting off then that's an issue on your side, not your opponent. Also, it's not like the Acolytes are taking significantly less casualties from the Guardsmen and are immediately in RF range, while also being subject to leadership unlike the Devilgants, so they very well could be taking more casualties overall. - You haven't responded to the SMA side of the equation for the gaunts, using the same 2 CP tax the expected GSC Patrol to allow you to take the Acolytes. Even with just one turn that makes them do more damage for effectively the same resources, even if the 30-man Devilgant squad takes 10 casualties. As someone said before, there is a TRADEOFF whichever unit you decide to use to fill the role, and there will be scenarios where one is better than the other. The only thing I take issue with is the claim that there is no reason to take the Devilgants when many valid reasons have been presented. |
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Post by infornography on Dec 31, 2020 20:27:38 GMT
I have found their damage output, when targeting T3-4 bodies, has been quite good. Particularly when you drop them where they can target high value enemies. As I originally stated, I never count on more than one turn with them, but that one turn has resulted in clearing an entire quadrant of the board of infantry more than a few times. It is all about positioning and target priority. If I could only drop them where they would be shooting at things that already are about to be overrun and are of little consequence materially or tactically, then of course they are a waste of points. What makes them valuable is the ability to wait for an opening to eliminate some flash gits, or harlequins, or reapers, or a tau firing line, or guard HWTs, etc. They quickly earn their points back when you can target those things. And yes the CP for SMA is expensive, but it basically doubles the effectiveness of the unit because if the enemy has the ability once they are done, those devilgaunts won't survive to see the next round in sufficient numbers to be a threat. Those CP for 90 more S4 shots is a bargain!
At the end of the day, I won't pretend that the Tyranid codex is in such a good position that having a unit that kills approximately its points worth of high value targets or soft backline objective holders and distracts anti-infantry fire for a round is not worth it. If we were only talking about them being able to shoot the front line up, I'd agree that it wasn't worth it, but being able to drop in and pick your targets? WORTH IT! The things they can remove from the battlefield are units that would otherwise be a giant pain for most of the game. Being able to clear objective holders from a large section of map clears the way for rippers to pop up the next turn and take those objectives. It makes a portion of the backlines safer for a lictor to show up and start planting homing beacons. It removes a threat that would otherwise be whittling down your offensive force. Yeah, they won't win you the game on their own, but they are capable of swaying the tide.
If you have not had similar luck, then I guess YMMV, but for me they are a scalpel that can make all the difference on whether or not my blunt instruments survive to reach the front lines.
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Post by kurtangle2 on Dec 31, 2020 20:35:31 GMT
- Subject to Movement Shenanigans when you know they are 30 T3 6+ wounds that can't stay alive at all? Are you really playing with bad players that can't easily clear a mass of terrible models like this? - -1 to Hit as if you would even have a Malanthrope nearby the same turn they deepstrike alongside a Trygon: I would like to laugh so hard in front of you for ever thinking about spending so many points and opportunity costs whilst I could use the Malanthrope near Dimachaerons and Hierodules with MUCH GREATER effect and options - Immune to leadership is worthless when they get erased by ANYTHING (10 Puny Guardsmen clear 7,708 in RF and FRF,SRF and they aren't even a good unit this edition anymore so I wonder how they would fare against anything a bit more competitive) - Gaunts do what gaunts do which is being shot off the table at the minimum cost possible: the moment you spread away from that role and decide to DOUBLE the cost for a WORSE version of a HF Acolyte is the moment you know something is very wrong In order of your points: - If you can't hide your gaunts for even the first turn and/or provide enough threat saturation that they would get wiped immediately, that's a problem with terrain and list design, and possibly even how you deploy. Just chalking it up to playing against "bad players" is disingenuous. - Where did he say that he was keeping a Malanthrope next to a Trygon? His previous point was literally about how the acolytes have to start in deepstrike to be effective, whereas gaunts do not. - Again, if you're in a position where the Devilgants didn't get to get even one round of shooting off then that's an issue on your side, not your opponent. Also, it's not like the Acolytes are taking significantly less casualties from the Guardsmen and are immediately in RF range, while also being subject to leadership unlike the Devilgants, so they very well could be taking more casualties overall. - You haven't responded to the SMA side of the equation for the gaunts, using the same 2 CP tax the expected GSC Patrol to allow you to take the Acolytes. Even with just one turn that makes them do more damage for effectively the same resources, even if the 30-man Devilgant squad takes 10 casualties. As someone said before, there is a TRADEOFF whichever unit you decide to use to fill the role, and there will be scenarios where one is better than the other. The only thing I take issue with is the claim that there is no reason to take the Devilgants when many valid reasons have been presented. - If you can hide a unit of 30+ models this easily thanks to Obscuring, it means you could possibly hide many more threats that 30 useless bodies behind it - 30 Devilgaunts in deepstrike are already bad enough for their cost, putting them on the board is some of the worst choices you could possibly made - CPs are a MUCH MORE expendable resources than Points in 9th with the former having right now the least value ever since their 8TH injection; unlocking a GSC Patrol/Battalion/whatever is definitely a better choice than spending 2 CPs to shoot twice with a unit of Devilgaunts (whose 270 points are NOT well spent) - Devilgaunts appear, do one round of damage in shooting with 2 CPs, can't do any kind of significant damage in melee even if they mark the charge and then die to ANYTHING that points at them, even the worst weapons in the game (T3 6+ remember, only Grots/Spore mines are worse); on the other hand HF acolytes are a MELEE unit that has BETTER SHOOTING DAMAGE than a unit solely taken for RANGED ANTI-INFANTRY DAMAGE and this isn't accounting any possibly buff you could give them via Stratagems, Characters or Psychic buffs There's an APPARENT tradeoff and the REAL tradeoff between the units and the second one isn't even there when you realize that 120 HF Acolytes build actually did something whilst the same points spent Devilgaunts would net you the last positions of a tournament |
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Post by TheDeepestShadow on Dec 31, 2020 21:04:36 GMT
In order of your points: - If you can't hide your gaunts for even the first turn and/or provide enough threat saturation that they would get wiped immediately, that's a problem with terrain and list design, and possibly even how you deploy. Just chalking it up to playing against "bad players" is disingenuous. - Where did he say that he was keeping a Malanthrope next to a Trygon? His previous point was literally about how the acolytes have to start in deepstrike to be effective, whereas gaunts do not. - Again, if you're in a position where the Devilgants didn't get to get even one round of shooting off then that's an issue on your side, not your opponent. Also, it's not like the Acolytes are taking significantly less casualties from the Guardsmen and are immediately in RF range, while also being subject to leadership unlike the Devilgants, so they very well could be taking more casualties overall. - You haven't responded to the SMA side of the equation for the gaunts, using the same 2 CP tax the expected GSC Patrol to allow you to take the Acolytes. Even with just one turn that makes them do more damage for effectively the same resources, even if the 30-man Devilgant squad takes 10 casualties. As someone said before, there is a TRADEOFF whichever unit you decide to use to fill the role, and there will be scenarios where one is better than the other. The only thing I take issue with is the claim that there is no reason to take the Devilgants when many valid reasons have been presented. - If you can a unit of 30+ models this easily thanks to Obscuring, it means you could possibly hide many more threats that 30 useless bodies behind it - 30 Devilgaunts in deepstrike are already bad enough for their cost, putting them on the board is some of the worst choices you could possibly made - CPs are a MUCH MORE expendable resources than Points in 9th with the former having right now the least value ever since their 8TH injection; unlocking a GSC Patrol/Battalion/whatever is definitely a better choice than spending 2 CPs to shoot twice with a unit of Devilgaunts (whose 270 points are NOT well spent) - Devilgaunts appear, do one round of damage in shooting with 2 CPs, can't do any kind of significant damage in melee even if they mark the charge and then die to ANYTHING that points at them, even the worst weapons in the game (T3 6+ remember, only Grots/Spore mines are worse); on the other hand HF acolytes are a MELEE unit that has BETTER SHOOTING DAMAGE than a unit solely taken for RANGED ANTI-INFANTRY DAMAGE and this isn't accounting any possibly buff you could give them via Stratagems, Characters or Psychic buffs There's an APPARENT tradeoff and the REAL tradeoff between the units and the second one isn't even there when you realize that 120 HF Acolytes build actually did something whilst the same points spent Devilgaunts would net you the last positions of a tournament - Not useless if they fulfill their intended role. Especially considering alot of the other legitimate threats (that also don't fill the same role) we now have after the FW update don't even benefit from Obscuring, so there's more real estate available to hide other units. - Great statement with nothing explaining why if you can hide them. If you're going first then there isn't as much ability to get into range to shoot for sure, unless the opponent has forward-deploying units like Incursors. Going second however means that any opponent even trying to get midfield objectives would be in threat range unless all the gaunts are all deployed at your table edge. - This is a tradeoff that matters based on the rest of your list. Some lists may need more CP than others to function, and in such cases the extra Patrol would not be more valuable. I'm not saying that the points on Devilgaunts are well spent in the grand scheme of list construction, but this is a comparison with Acolytes fulfilling the same role. Personally I don't find either Devilgaunts or Acolytes to be worth fitting into any of my lists, but that's not what's being discussed. - More tradeoffs and resource management that one would need to consider depending on who they face and how the rest of the list is designed. The Devilgants have less moving parts to do what they are meant to, even if it is less effective outside of the shooting phase. Your last statement about 120 HF Acolytes build versus the same points in Devilgaunts is irrelevant to this discussion because that is not what is being discussed, which is a comparison of the efficiency of one unit of each in a vacuum. Nobody here has talked about making a full Devilgant list, just the inclusion of one unit to fulfill a specific role that is probably not being filled by the rest of the list. Of course making a primarily GSC list would reduce the value of including gaunts significantly, but to use this as a point for this argument while brushing off the opposite scenario which has been the core of this discussion as insignificant is disingenuous. Again, the main thing I take issue with is the claim that there is no reason to take Devilgants in a list, since even if I have not found them to be worth including myself, I can recognize that they have a role they can fill depending on how the list is designed. |
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Post by niiai on Jan 1, 2021 1:59:34 GMT
So many posts on new years eve. Oh well.
If you have problem with synapse for haunts consider the norn crown. A really big synapse range. I used to take it before Bob because every other leviathan available relic sucked before Bob.
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Synaptic Scourge
Genestealer
For a predatory species, Tyranids have awfully clean teeth...
Posts: 83
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Post by Synaptic Scourge on Jan 1, 2021 2:40:08 GMT
So many posts on new years eve. Oh well. If you have problem with synapse for haunts consider the norn crown. A really big synapse range. I used to take it before Bob because every other leviathan available relic sucked before Bob. Given the state of much of the world it's a good sign that folks are hopefully being responsible little gaunts. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 1, 2021 2:59:26 GMT
The arguments surrounding devilgants are pretty hashed out even before this, so I'm not sure why we're really debating this.
Bring purely tyranids, I'd forward the hormagant to be better. They can do their job starting on the table, and only require a commonly brought piece (SL) to make them work. They're cheaper, fulfill multiple game winning roles, and can output surprising amounts of damage.
Devilgants aren't bad, but do require a taxi. They cannot do their job starting on the board, and cost more than any other horde infantry other than Necron warriors, who are undeniably much stronger stat wise.
HFA do not cost a lot - a patrol costs you 2cp, 1HQ, 1Troop, which makes it on par with a jormungandr combo for Devilgants, and way cheaper against anything else other then cp costs, assuming you run a single battalion.
Competitively, GSC gives a lot to Nids so it's hard to argue that splashing in for HFA is a bad thing. It's mostly flavour or head cannon or pure obstinacy over some people's way of presenting opinions that makes it look like a not acceptable thing.
Conclusion: devilgants and badly balanced within and without the Nids codex.
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Post by Kitane on Jan 8, 2021 16:54:52 GMT
Going through this discussion just a day after the FAQ, I have to wonder whether someone from GW actually saw this and sneaked in the devilgant update at the last minute. (I know, not likely, but the timing was perfect)
Devilgants down to 7 points and HF acolytes up to 11, that does shake things up.
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Post by purestrain on Jan 8, 2021 19:36:59 GMT
Devils win, Couple their new amount of basic firepower and the flyrants reduction in cost and leviathan 6+++ and you have some hard to move gunpower.
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