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Post by primetime on Dec 30, 2020 17:44:26 GMT
I see you've discovered the dirty little secret with nids. We are an army that shines when we are 6-18" away from the enemy. Farther away and the enemy is out of range of most of our guns and psychic powers. Closer and they expose our lack of efficient melee. The longer you can keep the enemy in that sweet spot the better you will do. This I certainly find to be true. In fact turns 2-3 I often find myself backing up / using lateral movement to keep in shooting range without presenting tempting charge targets. I see Warriors aren't hugely popular right now so maybe I need to get out more with my list... ... but I am enjoying them at least, and seem to be right there in all my games so far. I keep them in Rend/Toxin with 2/3 Spitters 1/3 Venom and play them like disciplined soldiers, rather than mindless bugs. Jormungandr allows me to stay in cover and the warlord trait helps when enemies are relying on cover. I like that they are all Infantry, ObSec, Synapse and Shadows with Assault weapons and the off chance for extra effect in combat. The Primes do leave something to be desired, granted, but the aura is helpful and Broodlord / Tyrant are more expensive and don't give me that. Neurothrope flies, so doesn't mesh entirely well with Jormungandr but probably a good choice either way. Maybe I'm new enough that I haven't seen "better" days for the Nids. |
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Post by infornography on Dec 30, 2020 17:50:56 GMT
It goes in cycles but Tyranids seem to have bigger and more frequent shifts than most armies. We get super strong, rarely top army but often easily in the top 5, then within a month or two we are hit hard by rules changes and nerfs and land in lower middle tier, then we get better and end up in lower upper tier only to then shift down to bottom tier. etc.
GSC seem to be either upper tier or bottom tier at any given time.
Most imperial armies see change too, but it is less drastic and less frequent.
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Post by hiveoverall on Dec 30, 2020 22:48:17 GMT
Walkrants with double scytals and murderous size (and barbed resonance) are great to finish the work started by three dimachaerons. He did great vs my custodes opponent today.
I had a flyrant with the same load out do great vs battle nuns yesterday.
I won both games by a 30 point margin if not more, and these guys were comp dudes.
I would not be too dismissive of units many people haven’t tried out much in 9th. I agree on the assessment of calbanite on warriors though, as with Nilai on pyrovores.
I am getting a lot of games these last few days against different people (the joys of being part of a WTC team) the more I play, the more I realize how 9th is all about trying out stuff. 4 wins in a row for le with kraken swarmlord with triple dima. I keep changing the rest of the list but it keeps winning. I know I auto loose vs harlequins and ork boy spam though (I will soon try vs harlequins and get my growing ego laid low once again hah hah)
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Post by yoritomo on Dec 30, 2020 23:45:23 GMT
I’ve found that devilgaunts solve most of my harlequin and ork problems. Unfortunately at 9 points a pop they are too expensive for a generic army list. If you know what’s coming they’re worth a go.
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Post by primetime on Dec 31, 2020 2:53:11 GMT
I wouldn't even count Warriors as viable anymore, because the entire game is centered around dealing with Elite Infantry and Warriors insta-die to a single melta shot. They are bad. Stop bringing them. They can't kill Marines and they can't survive vs Marines. You're gonna face Marines. You HAVE to plan on making a list that can kill Marines or not instantly lose to a list designed to kill Marines. Help me out with this one. Why cant they kill or survive vs. marines? |
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Post by hiveoverall on Dec 31, 2020 8:27:58 GMT
I wouldn't even count Warriors as viable anymore, because the entire game is centered around dealing with Elite Infantry and Warriors insta-die to a single melta shot. They are bad. Stop bringing them. They can't kill Marines and they can't survive vs Marines. You're gonna face Marines. You HAVE to plan on making a list that can kill Marines or not instantly lose to a list designed to kill Marines. Help me out with this one. Why cant they kill or survive vs. marines? Because they die in melee against blade guards without even scratching the paint on their armour. And they also die against everything people bring to kill blade guards (and eradicators) |
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Post by hiveoverall on Dec 31, 2020 8:33:03 GMT
I’ve found that devilgaunts solve most of my harlequin and ork problems. Unfortunately at 9 points a pop they are too expensive for a generic army list. If you know what’s coming they’re worth a go. Actually I was also wondering about them, in a TAC (take all comers) list. I agree with you they do seem expensive, but we don’t have cheap high rate of fire so... Perhaps it is time to try again mixing guns in gaunt units, or outflanking pure devilgaunt units. |
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Post by beetlejuice on Dec 31, 2020 10:07:45 GMT
I’ve found that devilgaunts solve most of my harlequin and ork problems. Unfortunately at 9 points a pop they are too expensive for a generic army list. If you know what’s coming they’re worth a go. Actually I was also wondering about them, in a TAC (take all comers) list. I agree with you they do seem expensive, but we don’t have cheap high rate of fire so... Perhaps it is time to try again mixing guns in faut units, or outflanking pure devilgaunt units. The big advantage of one big blob in strategic reserves is that you can save points and double the output with single minded annihilation those few times you actually need horde clear. If only we had reroll hits on our HQ auras like every other army BS4+ would actually be manageable... |
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Post by hiveoverall on Dec 31, 2020 13:15:51 GMT
Actually I was also wondering about them, in a TAC (take all comers) list. I agree with you they do seem expensive, but we don’t have cheap high rate of fire so... Perhaps it is time to try again mixing guns in faut units, or outflanking pure devilgaunt units. The big advantage of one big blob in strategic reserves is that you can save points and double the output with single minded annihilation those few times you actually need horde clear. If only we had reroll hits on our HQ auras like every other army BS4+ would actually be manageable... True. Because honestly a blob of 20 devilgaunts is... 180 points. Even with single minded It clears on average 23 boyz if a painboy is there, 26-27 boyz if no painboy is around. If ever a KFF covers the boyz then the number of casualties falls down hard. And if a few boys is left then you need to finish the mob with another shooting source, or in the assault phase, else they activate the green tide stratagem and we are boned. Perhaps we need 25-30 devilgaunt broods, but then... 225-270 points. The full devourer walkrant is too expensive too for the output it has. |
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Post by yoritomo on Dec 31, 2020 14:58:42 GMT
Actually I was also wondering about them, in a TAC (take all comers) list. I agree with you they do seem expensive, but we don’t have cheap high rate of fire so... Perhaps it is time to try again mixing guns in gaunt units, or outflanking pure devilgaunt units. You have two options when it comes to devilgaunts in a TAC list. You can take one unit and use movement shenanigans (deep strike, outflank, etc...) to hit your opponent in the sweet spot, or go whole hog and bring 100+ devilgaunts. Yes, the devourer's damage doesn't scale well as the toughness goes up, but still, 300 shots is 300 shots. I won't talk about gaunt bomb. I feel the tactics are self explanatory, it fits better as nidzilla support and I've always played small ball tyrainds. In the gaunt carpet version you have the termagant variety and the devilgaunt variety. The termagant variety is probably the more successful variety, but the devilgaunt variety is the more fun version to play. I don't think mixing the two varieties gains you anything. If you mix units your opponent will be smart enough to just shoot at the devilgaunts. Whenever I've mixed gaunts in units I've always been frustrated that my termagants are where I want my devilgaunts and vice versa. That and your opponent is smart enough to focus fire and kill a unit before moving onto the next one. For this reason you probably don't want to take any monstrous creatures in this list. Like I said before, this codex wants you to spam units. This is another example of it. The biggest problems with the gaunt carpet list is that you are spending 1000+ points on what is guardsmen quality hand to hand combat. This has to be addressed or two squads of assault troops will make your army fold. My preferred option has always been a couple squads of stealers, but if you're running devilgaunts you probably don't have the points to spare for stealers. The broodlord is probably the best option here. He's untargetable synapse that provides good close combat ability and psychic support. His biggest weakness is getting overwhelmed in close combat, but if he's bailing out 20 gaunts that isn't much of a problem. You'll also have to figure out how to deal with tanks and other vehicles, without out monsters. Hive guard are a good option, especially if you can keep them out of sight. Zoanthropes are another option, though you'd have to spam smites to get the job done. Or you could just ignore them, play the mission, and just let a bunch of gaunts die. There's a lot of potential here. I'd certainly do well against guard, orks, and harlequins. It could be viable against marines if played right. It's worth exploring if you have the gaunts on hand. |
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Post by infornography on Dec 31, 2020 15:29:43 GMT
I love gaunt bomb. It has one good turn and maybe if you are lucky a second, but what a turn it is!
It is incredibly effective against pretty much all Eldar, Tau, and guard. It is still good against Orks and it can at least be a problem for space marines and necrons. About the only faction it is nearly completely ineffectual against is Custodes. The problem isn't the cost of the devilgaunts though, it is the cost of the transport and synapse. Trygon Prime is a good choice, but drastically overcosted for what you get. You can use a jorm taxi of raveners and bring along a broodlord or something but that again gets pricey and locks in your hive fleet. You can use a pod, but then you have no synapse to be able to pick your targets. And you can outflank but you would also have to again bring some synapse along. One option is to use the power that increases synapse range if you have something just close enough to reach, but usually you want them dropping in where they can reach out and touch the maximum number of high value low toughness targets and that range is often just not enough to reach them. You have to plan to get them synapse somehow or just accept that they will overkill whatever is closest to them.
I really wish Trygon Prime were a cheaper or more durable option. It would be the perfect choice if it were appropriately costed or adequately tough.
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Post by primetime on Dec 31, 2020 16:26:19 GMT
Help me out with this one. Why cant they kill or survive vs. marines? Because they die in melee against blade guards without even scratching the paint on their armour. And they also die against everything people bring to kill blade guards (and eradicators) Well alrighty then. |
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Post by kurtangle2 on Dec 31, 2020 16:32:39 GMT
I love gaunt bomb. It has one good turn and maybe if you are lucky a second, but what a turn it is! It is incredibly effective against pretty much all Eldar, Tau, and guard. It is still good against Orks and it can at least be a problem for space marines and necrons. About the only faction it is nearly completely ineffectual against is Custodes. The problem isn't the cost of the devilgaunts though, it is the cost of the transport and synapse. Trygon Prime is a good choice, but drastically overcosted for what you get. You can use a jorm taxi of raveners and bring along a broodlord or something but that again gets pricey and locks in your hive fleet. You can use a pod, but then you have no synapse to be able to pick your targets. And you can outflank but you would also have to again bring some synapse along. One option is to use the power that increases synapse range if you have something just close enough to reach, but usually you want them dropping in where they can reach out and touch the maximum number of high value low toughness targets and that range is often just not enough to reach them. You have to plan to get them synapse somehow or just accept that they will overkill whatever is closest to them. I really wish Trygon Prime were a cheaper or more durable option. It would be the perfect choice if it were appropriately costed or adequately tough. Gaunt bomb is just a plain worse HF Acolytes unit in EVERY aspect, no reason to use it |
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Post by infornography on Dec 31, 2020 17:06:13 GMT
I love gaunt bomb. It has one good turn and maybe if you are lucky a second, but what a turn it is! It is incredibly effective against pretty much all Eldar, Tau, and guard. It is still good against Orks and it can at least be a problem for space marines and necrons. About the only faction it is nearly completely ineffectual against is Custodes. The problem isn't the cost of the devilgaunts though, it is the cost of the transport and synapse. Trygon Prime is a good choice, but drastically overcosted for what you get. You can use a jorm taxi of raveners and bring along a broodlord or something but that again gets pricey and locks in your hive fleet. You can use a pod, but then you have no synapse to be able to pick your targets. And you can outflank but you would also have to again bring some synapse along. One option is to use the power that increases synapse range if you have something just close enough to reach, but usually you want them dropping in where they can reach out and touch the maximum number of high value low toughness targets and that range is often just not enough to reach them. You have to plan to get them synapse somehow or just accept that they will overkill whatever is closest to them. I really wish Trygon Prime were a cheaper or more durable option. It would be the perfect choice if it were appropriately costed or adequately tough. Gaunt bomb is just a plain worse HF Acolytes unit in EVERY aspect, no reason to use it Well.. I guess if you don't count that they cost more per model, have shorter range, only strength 3 instead of 4, max out at 20 per unit instead of 30, are't in the Tyranid codex and can't be taken without a separate detachment, and can't use SMA. Aside from all that ... EVERY aspect... yeah... I get that acolytes are MUCH better in melee, don't need synapse, are easier to deep strike, and all, but seriously there IS a tradeoff. If you are running a Tyranid list, it makes sense to bring the unit in the Tyranid codex. Also the difference between Str 3 and 4 is enormous. It is possibly the single most important point of strength increase in the game aside from MAYBE 2 to 3. It vastly broadens the potential targets. Don't get me wrong, the hand flamer acolyte bomb is pretty hot, but it is absolutely NOT better in EVERY aspect and there is still a place for the gaunt bomb. |
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Post by kurtangle2 on Dec 31, 2020 18:49:34 GMT
Gaunt bomb is just a plain worse HF Acolytes unit in EVERY aspect, no reason to use it Well.. I guess if you don't count that they cost more per model, have shorter range, only strength 3 instead of 4, max out at 20 per unit instead of 30, are't in the Tyranid codex and can't be taken without a separate detachment, and can't use SMA. Aside from all that ... EVERY aspect... yeah... I get that acolytes are MUCH better in melee, don't need synapse, are easier to deep strike, and all, but seriously there IS a tradeoff. If you are running a Tyranid list, it makes sense to bring the unit in the Tyranid codex. Also the difference between Str 3 and 4 is enormous. It is possibly the single most important point of strength increase in the game aside from MAYBE 2 to 3. It vastly broadens the potential targets. Don't get me wrong, the hand flamer acolyte bomb is pretty hot, but it is absolutely NOT better in EVERY aspect and there is still a place for the gaunt bomb. - 10 pts vs 9 pts - 12" vs 18" But you can deploy >3" if you wish but it's irrelevant when you factor that it's a free unconditional deepstrike that doesn't need a Taxi like the Trygon - S3 vs S4 is irrelevant when the damage output is the same or BETTER for S3 thanks to autohit and completely irrelevant when you factor T5 (only T6/T7 which is...non-existent in non Vehicles/CM make a difference but both are dogshit against that profile anyway) - Maxing out at 20 rather than 30 is irrelevant, I factored 20 HF against 30 Devilgaunts and the latter are WORSE at dealing damage (20 HF Acolytes do 5% to 15% more damage than 30 Devilgaunts for 200 pts rather than 270 and at same sized units from 55% to 65%) Do math first before speaking pls |
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