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Post by infornography on Dec 28, 2020 21:48:18 GMT
Gaunts are fillers, objective holders, and distractors. Don't expect any killing out of them unless you get into melee with guard or tau and even then, not much.
Warriors are our only real all rounders. They have decent to good shooting AND decent melee, but you pay for that in points. They are on the edge of being good but don't quite cross the line. That is why people often bring them with an adaptive physiology, usually for durability.
Malceptor isn't that good at melee, and its special ability is often a waste of time given that you have to skip on casting any psyker abilities to use it, but with the BoB strat it does a lot to keep other units alive.
Genestealers are still fairly effective in melee, but they just cost too much given their lack of durability.
Carnifexen can be very effective, but you have to be careful how you build them. Keep in mind that devs on fexen can shoot while in melee now. Even if your fex doesn't do a whole lot with its actual melee attacks, getting into melee with a ranged focused enemy is often a good play for them.
Tyrants, like Cfexen can be very effective depending on the build. Most people consider the wings a given considering what they provide.
Haruspex has too many weaknesses to be any good without using several resources to make them good. Most consider it not worth the cost, but a couple people swear by them.
Trygon is the real distraction carnifex. It is big, it soaks a fair bit of firepower, and it does a ton of damage against high value targets in melee. It won't ever get to melee unless you are lucky with the charge rolls, but in that turn after it pops up, your enemy WILL pour all their AT firepower into it until it stops moving. This often can be the distraction you need to get something else where it needs to go. Use the Trygon to bring another unit up with it and keep firepower off the OOE or Swarmlord sneaking up on them. It is still a bit expensive for this role, but that is totally the role it plays if you bring it.
Mawlocks are not good at killing. They ARE good for popping up wherever you need to block an enemy deep strike from happening since they can ignore the 9" limitation most things have. I don't think they are worth it but others will swear by them for this purpose.
Tyrant guard are too expensive for how fragile and ineffective they are. Full stop.
Swarmlord and OOE are both beasts in melee.
Dimacharon or however it is spelled is great right now.
Scythed Hierodule is effective too
All in all, I mostly agree with you that we are not as good in melee as we should be, but it isn't quite as dire as you indicate.
Ranged we are in much better shape as most of our dedicated ranged units are at least fair at their jobs if not actually good.
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Post by dranzyl on Dec 28, 2020 21:58:57 GMT
A litle disingenuous on my part but ... If 6 attacks at 3+ws for d3 damage at str 7 is bad (toxi) how come 4 attacks at 4+ws for 1d at str 7 (haru) is not?
The point i am making is if a single haru to be viable needs every single unique buff AND a custom hive fleet then it propably isnt what you would call mediocre and the rest of your army will suffer for the steps you took to include it. I am not trying to be some kind of fun police but combating negativity and haters shouldnt stop us from being objective and reasonable.
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Post by infornography on Dec 28, 2020 22:53:24 GMT
A litle disingenuous on my part but ... If 6 attacks at 3+ws for d3 damage at str 7 is bad (toxi) how come 4 attacks at 4+ws for 1d at str 7 (haru) is not? The point i am making is if a single haru to be viable needs every single unique buff AND a custom hive fleet then it propably isnt what you would call mediocre and the rest of your army will suffer for the steps you took to include it. I am not trying to be some kind of fun police but combating negativity and haters shouldnt stop us from being objective and reasonable. None of those stats exist in a vacuum though. Haru gets more than one swing per attack for most of its attacks and it generates more attacks off of those. Plus it heals itself and is actually one of our more durable beasts to begin with. It still doesn't accomplish much without buffs but if you just compare the basic statline without considering the various abilities and how they interact you aren't making much of a point. |
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Post by purestrain on Dec 28, 2020 23:27:54 GMT
A litle disingenuous on my part but ... If 6 attacks at 3+ws for d3 damage at str 7 is bad (toxi) how come 4 attacks at 4+ws for 1d at str 7 (haru) is not? The point i am making is if a single haru to be viable needs every single unique buff AND a custom hive fleet then it propably isnt what you would call mediocre and the rest of your army will suffer for the steps you took to include it. I am not trying to be some kind of fun police but combating negativity and haters shouldnt stop us from being objective and reasonable. You build with it, not around it. Pair with a Dimachaeron, 6 ws2+ rerrolling attacks, nasty missile. Aforementioned Trygon, 7 attacks hitting on 2+ rerolling with the custom fleet. As ive said, I dont specifically use them, but Carnifex with a set of devs and crushing claws will wreak havoc. Bonesword/MLW Hive tyrants hitting on 3+ when dead isnt a bad thing either. And theres outliers for its usages, as stated before, we can shoot into combat with non blast weapons. A Bio acid spray tyrannofex doesnt care his weapons heavy and will actually deal some damage in melee with three 3+ str 7 ap- 2 2d kicks. Additional units to supplement what they need dont really require any sort of support, dumping a bunch of gaunts on the field gives them the blatantly obv choice of kill the scary monster or wipe the field of the carpet. its just another way to play. |
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Post by beetlejuice on Dec 28, 2020 23:28:57 GMT
I think we’re ok but a high skill cap army. There’s lots of utility but you can’t really play the same way in any two games. I think we really need to play all phases well to win (advancing the same unit 3 times and charging in a turn for example, who else does that?). We have good damage from exos, hive guard, dimas, hierodules and reliable mortal wounds from mawloc, zoans and tyrants. With an increasing amount of Max 3 wounds per phase models we are well equipped to deal with them (mawloc with strat for good chance of 3 MW in movement phase). We have rippers and lictors who score secondaries like bosses. There’s hardly any auto include units but lots of ways to build viable lists (not harlequins good, but they all look the same so boring imo). Sure, it would be nice with making all our other units usable and less stuff CP reliant to function but I’m more concerned with exos going to 200+ pts or other nerfs to current cornerstone units in an upcoming codex.
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Post by primetime on Dec 29, 2020 0:58:00 GMT
Hey there. New to this forum and relatively new to the game having started somewhat in the middle of 8th. I picked up Nids b/c they seemed cool and have found myself continuing to add Warriors to my list until I can see a point in very near future where that will be almost the entirety of my 2000 points. I have had some success in a local, only vaguely competitive environment, including some recent wins against Salamanders and Harlequins. I can see myself ending up with 54 Warriors and 3 Primes. Is this something many others do? I'm sure its not original or earth shattering, but seems to work for me as I see a lot of the "monsters" as full of sound and fury signifying very little. I have used a Maleceptor for his strat, a Tyrgon Prime and Venomthropes, but find I continue to gravitate to just more Warriors.
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Post by niiai on Dec 29, 2020 11:14:24 GMT
Hey there. New to this forum and relatively new to the game having started somewhat in the middle of 8th. I picked up Nids b/c they seemed cool and have found myself continuing to add Warriors to my list until I can see a point in very near future where that will be almost the entirety of my 2000 points. I have had some success in a local, only vaguely competitive environment, including some recent wins against Salamanders and Harlequins. I can see myself ending up with 54 Warriors and 3 Primes. Is this something many others do? I'm sure its not original or earth shattering, but seems to work for me as I see a lot of the "monsters" as full of sound and fury signifying very little. I have used a Maleceptor for his strat, a Tyrgon Prime and Venomthropes, but find I continue to gravitate to just more Warriors. I do not play much these days and mostly against myblocal ork opponent. Warriors are OK. 54 sounds like a lot but it sounds like a fun army. I prefer them with the biggest guns you can find, although venom cannons are very unreliable. I really love lash whip and sword. The new rules for removing models means my mixed weapon unit is having a hard time. I have a) talons, b) lash whip and sword, c) double sword and venom cannon. I wish I only had b and c. Primes are very bad. There is no way to build them good, you just take them for the aura. By my ork buddy is running 2 dakkajets, and thusly that model is very hard to screen from getting shots. What would make warriors very good was if they could have a power fist, but alas poor Yoric. |
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Post by dranzyl on Dec 29, 2020 12:12:31 GMT
About the haru, i know i wasnt giving it a fair assessment and was exaggerating for effect, thats why i said i was being disingenuous. So no hard feelings i hope.
As for the warrior list perhaps some more gant units for bodies, some dedicated anti tank/armor and perhaps broodlords in plave of primes might be worth considering?
A 'problem' in nids seems to be that they need to play the objective game, something thats generally more skill intesive, rather than what the fluff would lead you to believe. Which leads to new players getting their teeth kicked in when they try to kill their opponent.
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Post by purestrain on Dec 29, 2020 12:38:08 GMT
I'd rather lose games horribly with my monsters than moves 200 piece carpet lol
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Post by mattblowers on Dec 29, 2020 14:00:35 GMT
I've completely lost interest at the moment and from the lack of activity on the hive I can see I'm not the only one. Nothing has changed to make a haruspex or toxicrene more viable so if we are discussing the merits of them, we are in a dead spot. I had high hopes for 9th, but am really underwhelmed by the play of it. I'm intrigued with new FW rules, but then I remembered I don't actually have in person options to play.  Currently my hobby time is split between: - 3D printing - Sons of Mars (gladiator game) - Blood and Plunder (pirate game) - Bolt Action - Warcry (it's a great game) Maybe my interest in 40K will re-emerge after Nurgle gets done with us, but I think I might just have moved on. |
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Post by nidzy on Dec 29, 2020 17:51:06 GMT
I've completely lost interest at the moment and from the lack of activity on the hive I can see I'm not the only one. Nothing has changed to make a haruspex or toxicrene more viable so if we are discussing the merits of them, we are in a dead spot. I had high hopes for 9th, but am really underwhelmed by the play of it. I'm intrigued with new FW rules, but then I remembered I don't actually have in person options to play. Currently my hobby time is split between: - 3D printing - Sons of Mars (gladiator game) - Blood and Plunder (pirate game) - Bolt Action - Warcry (it's a great game) Maybe my interest in 40K will re-emerge after Nurgle gets done with us, but I think I might just have moved on. I have an an enormous amount of fun playing 9th ed so far, what haven't you liked about how the games played besides nids being behind on the power creep? I think that GW has been playing safe bets during the pandemic and pushing their marine books. If things perk up in the next several months I think we will get a robust release schedule that hopefully includes any of my armies that aren't space marines(oh lord its nids, knights, gsc, eldar plus those marines-someone help!). I love how 9th plays! Have you gotten many games at all? It really is a different game than 8th and an improved rule set IMO. Obscuring terrain is a magnificent change and that coupled with having to be mobile to score has really made games a lot more fun for me. I have also played a lot more games in 2.5 hours than I ever managed in 8th. I am still struggling with building a list that is as good going second as first but I think a lot of armies are in that spot. With that said, I have lost plenty of games going first because my alpha failed or I tried to kill instead of set myself up to score for the next 3-4 turns. Anyway, our monsters need a consistent way to stay alive and get where they need to be or they need to be significantly cheaper. Prob both. The FW stuff is great because it is costed well for what it gives. That isn't generally true for our monsters outside of the exocrine. Nids don't play this piece trading game as well as marines or sisters or even DG pre book do by any stretch right now, but if they can fix that output to cost ratio for our monsters and apply some targeted buffs to rules and stats we are in. |
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Dec 29, 2020 18:09:22 GMT
I've completely lost interest at the moment and from the lack of activity on the hive I can see I'm not the only one. Nothing has changed to make a haruspex or toxicrene more viable so if we are discussing the merits of them, we are in a dead spot. I had high hopes for 9th, but am really underwhelmed by the play of it. I'm intrigued with new FW rules, but then I remembered I don't actually have in person options to play. Currently my hobby time is split between: - 3D printing - Sons of Mars (gladiator game) - Blood and Plunder (pirate game) - Bolt Action - Warcry (it's a great game) Maybe my interest in 40K will re-emerge after Nurgle gets done with us, but I think I might just have moved on. I think one issue with activity on the hive is that there's not much 40k related happening. Covid has successfully killed big tournaments for the time being, meaning that different localities are dealing with their own metas. I've been playing a lot less and haven't played a competitive game since July I think. A friend and I have been doing a virtual crusade. He's got a gaming table setup + terrain so he sets up and moves all the models. We each roll our own dice and have lots of trust that we won't cheat on dice or movement, etc. It works surprisingly well, but I still miss having my own models on the table. Given that I have a lot more models painted now, I'm really looking forward to being vaccinated so I can 40k in person in the future. I'm hoping that the nids or GSC codexes will have dropped by that point. |
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Post by draaen on Dec 29, 2020 18:40:51 GMT
Yeah I think the state of the nids is hard to say atm. I mostly watch games rather then doing actual playing.
Horde of Nid warriors seems cool to me. In general a lot of armies do well if you can present a very similar style of target. Big tough vehicles to waste small arms fire or lots of gribblies to waste anti-tank fire. Nid warriors seem like they would fall in the middle due to their wounds and low save. It's funny sometimes you need to hit a critical mass to make one unit work and sometimes a little support goes a long way for a scheme. So a hoard of warriors with neuros and some hive guard support sounds like it may be tasty depending on your meta.
As far as our monsters go they all just seem so close to really hitting the mark of being useful but somehow fall comically short. If the big monsters could move 12" and hit on 3's base that would really help out the big melee monsters. Like how tasty do these guys look
12" Move WS 3+ For all
Maleceptor - 4 Attacks psychic overload increased range or damage flat 1, D3, 3 Mortal Wounds
Toxicrene - Toxic Lashes flat 2 damage, Change Hypertoxic Miasma to personal -1 to hit.
Haruspex - 5 Attacks base. Ravenous maw 2 Damage flat
Mawloc - Deep strike turn 1 Damage changed to D3, 3, 3+D3 Mortal wounds
Trygon - Roll additional D6 for charge and discard lowest the turn he erupts for him and the unit he brings along
Those changes to me don't seem huge but would really make those monsters interesting choices when compared to daemon engines or dreadnoughts.
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Post by kurtangle2 on Dec 29, 2020 18:57:42 GMT
Yeah I think the state of the nids is hard to say atm. I mostly watch games rather then doing actual playing. Horde of Nid warriors seems cool to me. In general a lot of armies do well if you can present a very similar style of target. Big tough vehicles to waste small arms fire or lots of gribblies to waste anti-tank fire. Nid warriors seem like they would fall in the middle due to their wounds and low save. It's funny sometimes you need to hit a critical mass to make one unit work and sometimes a little support goes a long way for a scheme. So a hoard of warriors with neuros and some hive guard support sounds like it may be tasty depending on your meta. As far as our monsters go they all just seem so close to really hitting the mark of being useful but somehow fall comically short. If the big monsters could move 12" and hit on 3's base that would really help out the big melee monsters. Like how tasty do these guys look 12" Move WS 3+ For all Maleceptor - 4 Attacks psychic overload increased range or damage flat 1, D3, 3 Mortal Wounds Toxicrene - Toxic Lashes flat 2 damage, Change Hypertoxic Miasma to personal -1 to hit. Haruspex - 5 Attacks base. Ravenous maw 2 Damage flat Mawloc - Deep strike turn 1 Damage changed to D3, 3, 3+D3 Mortal wounds Trygon - Roll additional D6 for charge and discard lowest the turn he erupts for him and the unit he brings along Those changes to me don't seem huge but would really make those monsters interesting choices when compared to daemon engines or dreadnoughts. Those melee monsters would still be outshined by a Dimachaeron that has everything it wants in a single package Nah, they need far more than this |
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Post by infornography on Dec 29, 2020 19:43:05 GMT
Trygon would still either need to be a touch cheaper or more durable. Right now you will likely get ONE turn with him and he is a bit expensive for a dedicated taxi/distraction.
I think Mawloc's damage is just not likely to be all that useful. MWs come at too high a premium and quite frankly 3 damage is just not much at all. Having a big monster able to account for a single custodes figure for example before being pounded into dust just isn't going to be a good tradeoff and that is pretty much the best he can hope for unless he finishes off something big. I think I would honestly rather just have him be cheaper and able to cause problems for enemy deep strikers and able to pop up wherever he likes most cases.
Haruspex with WS3 and one more attack base and flat damage is close to being good without additional buffs. If he can also heal himself more effectively he would be there I think.
Malceptor with those buffs plus the ability to use his psyker abilities the same turn as the overload would make him worthwhile without the BoB strat.
This is all wishlisting I know, but it is disappointing how many of our monsters are just mediocre at best.
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