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Post by dc0315 on Aug 15, 2020 4:45:03 GMT
It doesn't help that hive tyrants are one of our best units and those also have 2 casts apiece. Swarmlord and Maleceptor too. Given the increase of smite casting difficulty and the limited number of (useful) powers available to us, you probably do not want to run more than 4, maybe 5 psykers with 2 casts each. Unless you expect your psykers to be taken out aggressively and need redundancy in your list... but given that these 2 power psyker units are also among our most resilient ones, that is not all that likely. So if you want to run zoans, you would have maybe 1 neuro, then 1, maybe 2 large units of zoans, depending on your number of hive tyrants and whether or not you are bringing a Maleceptor, which is another 2 power psyker. Though that one can do psychic overload instead, the ability requires you to get close (so is not for turn 1 and possibly not turn 2 either), and will not be better than a barebones smite unless you can somehow maneuver it in a very good position somehow.
And the zoanthrope strat is such a hit or miss ability that eats up a large fraction of your army's activity and requires specific positioning from both you and your opponent to be potentially worth it... that I would not really consider it as an argument in serious lists. For casual, sure, but not for competitive, what this thread is about.
I guess you can also use neurothropes to accomplish psychic actions for mission objectives, but that (I think?) turns off their reroll-aura, and I am not sure that it is worth it to use a 95p HQ model for that.
Thats why you take 2 Neurothropes. Also they are tanky so you actually want them to get charged by elite units.they get stuck in, survive with 3++/6+++(leviathan) and continue to smite you. Try taking them off an objective. So 1 neuro is doing the psychic action, the other gives off reroll 1s and tries to heal and the zoans are giving the MW fear factor while your rippers are scoring objectives.
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Post by kwisatzhaderach on Aug 15, 2020 15:29:17 GMT
Do folks still believe in Zoey spam in the age of 2w Marines? Against them in particular, you're half as effective. I still ran Zoeys against Primaris lists (and they did okay, though psychic stuff is just too swingy period), but I think as soon as these new books roll out and every army has inflated wound counts (which I expect), this particular tactic becomes much less interesting. I hope we'll get some true Warp Blast analog back and Zoanthropes can return to their halcyon days of whomping Land Raiders and things. But more to the current discussion topic... yeah, I'm kind of skeptical on the use of Zoanthropes. Especially given that you can't fall back and cast; all of a sudden, your opponent ties up your Zoanthrope blop with an Impulsor or some other transport and you're useless. I've played a lot of games with Zoeys too, and as much as I want them to work, I don't think they do the business for us. If you take Zoanthropes in conjunction with high damage units like Exocrines or Ridgerunners, yes, I do. Zoanthropes are there to be hyper resilient And although Marines are poised to once again be on top of the meta, let's not forget that there are other factions, and so far they all seem to be staying at 1 wound. Necrons had multiple chances at getting additional wounds (Immortals) but they didn't get them. You really need to play a game or two with them in 9th to see that Zoans are much stronger than pure theorycrafting would suggest. They are much better in 9th than 8th.
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Post by kazetanade on Aug 15, 2020 19:52:07 GMT
Scuse me. Theory crafting actually says they're the most effective and versatile midfield unit we have, they're just not the cheapest/most efficient per wound soaked per pt spent (against shooting specifically).
I am a dirty man and actually played Primaris Salamanders today (borrowed a friend's army and list). I had an IF opponent with mass Aggressors going up, very similar defensive profiles to what our Warriors can get in terms of output mitigated.
2 units absolutely destroyed 2 units without a sweat, with plenty of shots burnt overkill. Unless you're rolling 1s and 2s like mad, you're not going to be slowed down by Warriors with Eradicators on the field.
Same goes for TG who have even less buffs available.
The only guys with a chance of surviving this are Zoanthropes, or you cannot afford to get shot by them at all as elite infantry (exocrenes should be fine theoretically).
Ridgerunners are just going to get shat on by these if they ever get into range.
With that in mind, I'm very excited to see 6/9 biovore lists make their appearance somewhere. Although HG still have value in other armies, mass spores is one of our best counters to the marine machine, as they move pretty "slow" other than white scars. Having 9 spores just gunking pathways for Cents or Aggressors or Intercessors and making them unable to move up to grab objectives, so much value right there.
I played the Ridgerunner list right before this Primaris game, have to say, it's so easy in comparison. I could completely mess up my deployment and still come out pretty strong. Ridgerunners list you won't have much standing if you screw up deployment.
3 man Bladeguards killed 9 Intercessors with 0 buff support, and will be killing pretty much any elite they go up against. Assault intercessors are so broken, with 41A on the charge they're like our immensely overpriced Metamorphs when we were considering early on but even better because they're almost x3 as tank AND doubles the damage due to ap-1 for free (before considering sallies +1S and +1 to wound, and the exploding attacks I think in main codex, might be misremembering).
We haven't even talked about some of the more esoteric "gotcha" strategies involving Selfless Sacrifice and FtGG Sally version, as well as their immense tankiness with +1T, -1 hit, +1sv, Transhuman.
These codexes and supplements are just ridiculous and gives you so much power in your hands that it's hard to screw up. This feels dirty, and honestly I'll probably play SM for competitions going forward this year because it takes so many variables out of play.
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Post by Iryan on Aug 15, 2020 20:27:33 GMT
9 biovores, 3 sporocysts, 2 harpies.
Your opponent expects a nice game of Warhammer, but it is actually just Minesweeper.
Add a 6man squad of zoans to float on the objective of your choice, and dominate the board space while spamming mortal wounds like the best of them.
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Post by kwisatzhaderach on Aug 16, 2020 5:52:34 GMT
These codexes and supplements are just ridiculous and gives you so much power in your hands that it's hard to screw up. This feels dirty, and honestly I'll probably play SM for competitions going forward this year because it takes so many variables out of play. I basically stopped playing competitive M:tG because it was basically just one or two top decks in the formats I was playing (mostly Modern, some Legacy). Then I went over to 40k because it was more balanced, ironically. Now M:tG has banned most of the oppressive cards and 40k is the unbalanced one. Guess we're on a pendulum. 40k is unbalanced as hell because you gotta sell those stonks, man. The lowest hanging fruit on the tree was making broken rules for the majority of the playerbase. To be honest it's surprising it took them long to realize that you can sell $90 of paper to players if it will get them more wins. Especially the spoiled marine players. If you're looking to play competitively, I get it. Marines or bust. Nothing wrong with that, especially in a competitive setting. I just don't want to reward the company that has (please do not swear) over our faction time after time, but I will basically stop playing the game or just say "9th no marines" when looking for games. As an aside, I recently read a thread from a poster on DakkaDakka saying that the fix to 40k would be everyone using the Space Marine codex but just using counts-as. So maybe our genestealers could be Blood Angels death company, Eldar could have Fire Dragons as Eradicators, Tau could use battlesuits as Centurions, etc. Doesn't seem as bad of an idea after reading your post.
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Post by omnivore on Aug 16, 2020 12:06:28 GMT
I heard someone float the idea of splitting tournaments into SM v SM matches and then everyone else.
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Post by sniddy on Aug 16, 2020 12:09:22 GMT
I heard someone float the idea of splitting tournaments into SM v SM matches and then everyone else.
It's getting that way isn't it
That I'm not 100% sure if you're joking or dealy serious says much... and they may need to roll CSM into that
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Post by xsquidz on Aug 16, 2020 12:38:23 GMT
I heard someone float the idea of splitting tournaments into SM v SM matches and then everyone else.
It's getting that way isn't it
That I'm not 100% sure if you're joking or dealy serious says much... and they may need to roll CSM into that
What they should do is give you points based on your faction. For example at a 2K tournament marines get 1500 points, custodes 1750, nids maybe 1850, pure GSC would get 2000 or something like that. I know some people that when they are practicing for major events they will handy-cap themselves on points in practice games. I run small local tournament and last one we had 13 players, custodes came in 1st, 2nd and 5th. Shocking few marine players in my events and the 1-2 that came were totally new to the game, one went 0-3 with DA.
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Aug 16, 2020 14:50:35 GMT
It's getting that way isn't it
That I'm not 100% sure if you're joking or dealy serious says much... and they may need to roll CSM into that
What they should do is give you points based on your faction. For example at a 2K tournament marines get 1500 points, custodes 1750, nids maybe 1850, pure GSC would get 2000 or something like that. I know some people that when they are practicing for major events they will handy-cap themselves on points in practice games. I run small local tournament and last one we had 13 players, custodes came in 1st, 2nd and 5th. Shocking few marine players in my events and the 1-2 that came were totally new to the game, one went 0-3 with DA. My thought was that points should be the same but CP should be faction dependent. Gsc/nids need CP to survive or keep up. Other factions it just mildly helps them. I can't tell you how many gsc games I played in 8e where Id spent 18 cp by the end of turn 3 and my marine opponent still had half of theirs left. I'm hoping that they fix this in the new round of codex, but I think that's a while out at this point.
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Post by xsquidz on Aug 16, 2020 15:24:08 GMT
What they should do is give you points based on your faction. For example at a 2K tournament marines get 1500 points, custodes 1750, nids maybe 1850, pure GSC would get 2000 or something like that. I know some people that when they are practicing for major events they will handy-cap themselves on points in practice games. I run small local tournament and last one we had 13 players, custodes came in 1st, 2nd and 5th. Shocking few marine players in my events and the 1-2 that came were totally new to the game, one went 0-3 with DA. My thought was that points should be the same but CP should be faction dependent. Gsc/nids need CP to survive or keep up. Other factions it just mildly helps them. I can't tell you how many gsc games I played in 8e where Id spent 18 cp by the end of turn 3 and my marine opponent still had half of theirs left. I'm hoping that they fix this in the new round of codex, but I think that's a while out at this point. That would also help, similar to the way DE patrols work, if you take triple battallion with GSC/nids or in any combination you should get all your CP back and start with 12, minimum. The armies that need CP the most had it taken away and the armies that were doing just fine with few CP got tons more. Logic.
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Post by kwisatzhaderach on Aug 16, 2020 17:43:14 GMT
Not a huge deal, but a Tyranid list took 4th in a 14 man tournament in Japan. You'll need to ctrl+f "Tyranids" but I'll just go ahead and say that there are very few surprises here... tokyotactical.com/posts/tokyo-tactical-reborn-player-lists/Apparently part of it was streamed. I'm going to check out later to see if any of the Tyranid matches were covered, it would be nice to see.
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Post by dranzyl on Aug 17, 2020 9:28:38 GMT
Not really seeing that going to happen any timr soon. Rule number one is never admit to anything and different faction ratings is like saying i cant do balance. Plus if you externally balance the factions you are wasting all this effort in making marines OP which will mean they will need to buff them even more.
I am being sarcastic here but i still think the points have merrit.
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Post by wormlord666 on Aug 17, 2020 10:09:03 GMT
The mood has dropped in this thread wich is unfortunate since it started as a creative thread to see what we can do, despite bad odds. I have had som tough experiences with Marines and Admech recently so I understand the doom and gloom, but I´ll still ty to get the thread back on track:
I try to se what we have that could be turned in to strenghts:
We have cheap obsec units that can be wasted for VP. Both big blobs and MSU. We can move fast and block movement. We have good indirect shooting. We have ok MW generators. We have easy acces to fall back and charge.
Realisticly I don´t see us making a list that will dominate Majors or GT´s. I think we can make gatekeeperlists that with luck and skill can mayby win the odd tournament.
I see different ways to approach this fact: a) Accept that our superpredators now are at the bottom of the foodchain and make a balanced list and try fighting to go 3-2 or 4-1. For example a Kronos shootylist with some fighty part or a Leviathan blob with zooanthropes and stuff) b) Make a skewed list and hope for luck in the draw and the roll off for going first. (for example Gauntcarpet msu-style, Behemot monstermash, Swarmieslingin stealers, Kronos castle) Theese list can perform with right opponent and luck in the roll off but they can more or less autoloose if things go wrong.
Personally i am not a fan of any of theese ideas but I make think that making the crazy list that can win if all things go my way is more appealing than the balanced one.
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Post by kazetanade on Aug 17, 2020 14:35:41 GMT
The mood has dropped in this thread wich is unfortunate since it started as a creative thread to see what we can do, despite bad odds. I have had som tough experiences with Marines and Admech recently so I understand the doom and gloom, but I´ll still ty to get the thread back on track: I try to se what we have that could be turned in to strenghts: We have cheap obsec units that can be wasted for VP. Both big blobs and MSU. We can move fast and block movement. We have good indirect shooting. We have ok MW generators. We have easy acces to fall back and charge. Realisticly I don´t see us making a list that will dominate Majors or GT´s. I think we can make gatekeeperlists that with luck and skill can mayby win the odd tournament. I see different ways to approach this fact: a) Accept that our superpredators now are at the bottom of the foodchain and make a balanced list and try fighting to go 3-2 or 4-1. For example a Kronos shootylist with some fighty part or a Leviathan blob with zooanthropes and stuff) b) Make a skewed list and hope for luck in the draw and the roll off for going first. (for example Gauntcarpet msu-style, Behemot monstermash, Swarmieslingin stealers, Kronos castle) Theese list can perform with right opponent and luck in the roll off but they can more or less autoloose if things go wrong. Personally i am not a fan of any of theese ideas but I make think that making the crazy list that can win if all things go my way is more appealing than the balanced one. Some of our best bets lie in FotHM, and less in pure Nids. GSC have the absolute best throwaway troops to do anything with - Need Linebreaker? Throw 2 Acolytes into a corner somewhere. Pierce the Veil with your Magus and some throwaway unit. Deploy Scramblers with a unit of Acolytes. *shrug* These guys have a lot they can do. Ridgerunners + Exocrenes are an extremely potent pair of guns (which are less vulnerable to both Dense and Obscure) that do not suffer the HG's pechant for leaving elites alive and has the muscles to deal down Custodes, DG, Numarines, what have you (they're also relatively cheap). Zoeys will absorb a lot of punishment from meta units today. Putting all the things together wont be too difficult after a few games, and IMO we've exhausted all the potentials for both mixed and pure, so it's time people consolidated and start putting lists to the table.
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Post by iniquity on Aug 17, 2020 14:43:02 GMT
Has anyone thought of slinging big bugs at people with a swarmlord? Im wondering how strong the ability to use swarmie to yeet an acid spray fex onto an objective and metabolic another one onto an objective and just sit there like "come at me"
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