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Post by tallthor on Aug 10, 2020 17:37:32 GMT
Wow I think Pyrovores just went super up. You can Outflank 9 of them for 1cp... I am pretty happy with the Exo fitting the 1CP bracket as well, I was hoping for that to happen. Shame the T-fex went down only to a 10, but an Acid T-fex and Exo can still make a mean outflank combo for 2CP, being just the perfect 19PL together. edit: poor Cult, just a few increases here and there. 5 Aberrants are now 9 PL... Pretty happy about this as well.
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Post by iniquity on Aug 12, 2020 22:07:10 GMT
From the podcast, Tylert's carpet: (mandatory While We Stand We Fight because the characters never dies) Leviathan brigade Malanthrope Neurothrope – warlord, Resonance Barb Neurothrope 5 Ripper Swarms 5 Ripper Swarms 5 Ripper Swarms 5 Ripper Swarms 5 Ripper Swarms 5 Ripper Swarms 5 Ripper Swarms 3 Ripper Swarms 4 Zoanthropes 4 Zoanthropes 4 Zoanthropes Mucolid Mucolid 3 Skyslasher Swarms Biovore Biovore Biovore Kronos FortificationSporocyst – Dermic Symbiosis Sporocyst – Dermic Symbiosis Genestealer Cult patrol 4AEMagus, The Crouchling - Undermine 5 Acolytes Sanctus 1995pts 8CP I want to see that go up against a gretchin army. Can you imagine...
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Post by kwisatzhaderach on Aug 13, 2020 23:33:42 GMT
I just gave this list as a spin and ran over a Marine player. I'd probably turn the GSC detachment into mostly hivecult, but then make the rest of the units 4AE so that I have access to the deny. I'd also probably want a unit or two more of infantry because I had some issues with the secondaries and achieving them using actions.
Would for sure keep Zoans in units of 5, when they go down to 3, losing the extra D3 smite is really painful.
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [54 PL, -1CP, 955pts] ++ Rules: Brood Brothers
+ Configuration +
Cult Creed: The Hivecult
Detachment CP
+ HQ [9 PL, -1CP, 175pts] +
Jackal Alphus [4 PL, 75pts]: Warlord, Warlord Trait: Hivelord . Rules: Cult Ambush, Unquestioning Loyalty
Magus [5 PL, -1CP, 100pts]: Familiar [15pts], Power: Mass Hypnosis, Power: Mind Control, Stratagem: The Cult's Psyche [-1CP], The Crouchling . Rules: Cult Ambush, Unquestioning Loyalty
+ Troops [10 PL, 165pts] +
Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3 PL, 50pts]: Brood Brothers Leader [5pts] . Rules: Cult Ambush, Unquestioning Loyalty . 9x Brood Brother [45pts]
Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3 PL, 50pts]: Brood Brothers Leader [5pts] . Rules: Cult Ambush, Unquestioning Loyalty . 9x Brood Brother [45pts]
Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 65pts] . Rules: Cult Ambush, Unquestioning Loyalty . 8x Neophyte Hybrid [48pts] . Neophyte Hybrid (Grenade) [11pts]: Grenade Launcher [5pts] . Neophyte Leader [6pts]: Autogun, Autopistol
+ Elites [3 PL, 55pts] +
Nexos [3 PL, 55pts]
+ Fast Attack [32 PL, 560pts] +
Achilles Ridgerunners [12 PL, 210pts] . Rules: Cult Ambush . Achilles Ridgerunner [4 PL, 70pts]: Flare Launcher [5pts], Heavy Mining Laser [15pts], 2x Heavy Stubber [10pts] . Achilles Ridgerunner [4 PL, 70pts]: Flare Launcher [5pts], Heavy Mining Laser [15pts], 2x Heavy Stubber [10pts] . Achilles Ridgerunner [4 PL, 70pts]: Flare Launcher [5pts], Heavy Mining Laser [15pts], 2x Heavy Stubber [10pts]
Achilles Ridgerunners [12 PL, 210pts] . Rules: Cult Ambush . Achilles Ridgerunner [4 PL, 70pts]: Flare Launcher [5pts], Heavy Mining Laser [15pts], 2x Heavy Stubber [10pts] . Achilles Ridgerunner [4 PL, 70pts]: Flare Launcher [5pts], Heavy Mining Laser [15pts], 2x Heavy Stubber [10pts] . Achilles Ridgerunner [4 PL, 70pts]: Flare Launcher [5pts], Heavy Mining Laser [15pts], 2x Heavy Stubber [10pts]
Achilles Ridgerunners [8 PL, 140pts] . Rules: Cult Ambush . Achilles Ridgerunner [4 PL, 70pts]: Flare Launcher [5pts], Heavy Mining Laser [15pts], 2x Heavy Stubber [10pts] . Achilles Ridgerunner [4 PL, 70pts]: Flare Launcher [5pts], Heavy Mining Laser [15pts], 2x Heavy Stubber [10pts]
++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Tyranids) [48 PL, 9CP, 1,045pts] ++
+ Configuration [9CP] +
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]
Detachment CP [-3CP]
Hive Fleet: Leviathan
+ HQ [8 PL, 190pts] +
Neurothrope [4 PL, 95pts]: Power: Smite, Power: The Horror
Neurothrope [4 PL, 95pts]: Power: Psychic Scream, Power: Smite
+ Troops [10 PL, 180pts] +
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm [36pts]
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm [36pts]
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm [36pts]
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm [36pts]
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm [36pts]
+ Elites [30 PL, 675pts] +
Zoanthropes [10 PL, 225pts]: Power: Psychic Scream, 5x Zoanthrope [10 PL, 225pts]
Zoanthropes [10 PL, 225pts]: Power: Catalyst, 5x Zoanthrope [10 PL, 225pts]
Zoanthropes [10 PL, 225pts]: Power: Catalyst, 5x Zoanthrope [10 PL, 225pts]
++ Total: [102 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++
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Post by gorsameth on Aug 14, 2020 9:47:28 GMT
I can't help but look at these Zoanthrope lists and see ~700 points doing 4d3 mortals to the closest target and thinking "how is this good" (cause failing 1 out of 3 tests isn't unexpected) Before the faq stopped multiple smites I could see the value but now?
What am I missing here?
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Aug 14, 2020 12:32:09 GMT
I can't help but look at these Zoanthrope lists and see ~700 points doing 4d3 mortals to the closest target and thinking "how is this good" (cause failing 1 out of 3 tests isn't unexpected) Before the faq stopped multiple smites I could see the value but now? What am I missing here? If you take 3 units of 5, that's 675 points for 6d3 mortal wounds per turn. Back them up with a neurothrope and they can heal some while also getting rerolls to 1s when casting, which is huge for them. Generally, the advantages for zoanthropes I see are the following: 1. They're relatively tanky as you have the 3++ and three wounds. Your opponents best shot against them is massive numbers of shots. These shots are then not going into other high value targets. The 3++ and healing make them hard to shift so they can shut down the center of the board of needed. Stack on catalyst, leviathan, or regen 1 wound per turn and you're sitting at a very durable unit 2. Mortal wounds are great against elite tough targets, which is the direction the meta appears to be moving in. 6d3 with the potential for a super smite is pretty good. Additionally, don't discount adding on reroll 1s when casting. Each reroll of a 1 will increase your total by an average of 2.5 (average of a d6 is 3.5 - 1). I can't tell you how many tes I've succeeded a cast on a neurothrope due to the reroll 1s. Adding a neurothrope turns them into units of neurothropes. 3. Smite + movement shenanigans. Zoanthropes smite at 24". They additionally smite from a model you pick in the unit. Both of these are major boons. You can either choose a model that is out of deny the witch range or that is closer to a juicy target than a screen, etc. Both of these features give them tactical flexibility you can exploit. 4. The zoanthrope units can cast 2x at 4+ models. Tyranids have some great psychic powers. Having 3 units of zoanthropes gives us a very powerful psychic backbone that can buff our troops or debuff our enemies. 5. If your enemy is stupid enough to group up, you can dump psychic barrage on them. It has some great potential but is swingy so mileage will vary. (I've used it 3x and deleted one of my opponents flanks in twice, but did nothing the 3rd time).
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Post by No One on Aug 14, 2020 13:18:03 GMT
If you take 3 units of 5, that's 675 points for 6d3 mortal wounds per turn. Back them up with a neurothrope and they can heal some while also getting rerolls to 1s when casting, which is huge for them. Except you have smite scaling. Even with neuro's rr 1s, <60% of getting all 3 smites. If you want to heal, that's <60% of even going off for the first subsequent cast. Depends on what other stuff you're running, this is pretty irrelevant. Yes we have good powers. We also usually have more casters than good powers, because only 1 discipline+fleet powers, and you're probably not running dominion or parox. Heck, even onslaught/fleet powers are list dependant: case in point, the previous list has 3 powers over 5 casters. To put it another way: neuros and zoans are pretty anti-synergistic. Yes neuros buff zoans casts, but they basically do so at the expense of their own casts due to how the psychic phase works. Not to say that 3++ smite units are bad, but...I feel your points are overly optimistic.
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Post by Iryan on Aug 14, 2020 14:06:08 GMT
It doesn't help that hive tyrants are one of our best units and those also have 2 casts apiece. Swarmlord and Maleceptor too. Given the increase of smite casting difficulty and the limited number of (useful) powers available to us, you probably do not want to run more than 4, maybe 5 psykers with 2 casts each. Unless you expect your psykers to be taken out aggressively and need redundancy in your list... but given that these 2 power psyker units are also among our most resilient ones, that is not all that likely. So if you want to run zoans, you would have maybe 1 neuro, then 1, maybe 2 large units of zoans, depending on your number of hive tyrants and whether or not you are bringing a Maleceptor, which is another 2 power psyker. Though that one can do psychic overload instead, the ability requires you to get close (so is not for turn 1 and possibly not turn 2 either), and will not be better than a barebones smite unless you can somehow maneuver it in a very good position somehow.
And the zoanthrope strat is such a hit or miss ability that eats up a large fraction of your army's activity and requires specific positioning from both you and your opponent to be potentially worth it... that I would not really consider it as an argument in serious lists. For casual, sure, but not for competitive, what this thread is about.
I guess you can also use neurothropes to accomplish psychic actions for mission objectives, but that (I think?) turns off their reroll-aura, and I am not sure that it is worth it to use a 95p HQ model for that.
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Post by gorsameth on Aug 14, 2020 14:22:38 GMT
I can't help but look at these Zoanthrope lists and see ~700 points doing 4d3 mortals to the closest target and thinking "how is this good" (cause failing 1 out of 3 tests isn't unexpected) Before the faq stopped multiple smites I could see the value but now? What am I missing here? If you take 3 units of 5, that's 675 points for 6d3 mortal wounds per turn. Back them up with a neurothrope and they can heal some while also getting rerolls to 1s when casting, which is huge for them. Generally, the advantages for zoanthropes I see are the following: 1. They're relatively tanky as you have the 3++ and three wounds. Your opponents best shot against them is massive numbers of shots. These shots are then not going into other high value targets. The 3++ and healing make them hard to shift so they can shut down the center of the board of needed. Stack on catalyst, leviathan, or regen 1 wound per turn and you're sitting at a very durable unit 2. Mortal wounds are great against elite tough targets, which is the direction the meta appears to be moving in. 6d3 with the potential for a super smite is pretty good. Additionally, don't discount adding on reroll 1s when casting. Each reroll of a 1 will increase your total by an average of 2.5 (average of a d6 is 3.5 - 1). I can't tell you how many tes I've succeeded a cast on a neurothrope due to the reroll 1s. Adding a neurothrope turns them into units of neurothropes. 3. Smite + movement shenanigans. Zoanthropes smite at 24". They additionally smite from a model you pick in the unit. Both of these are major boons. You can either choose a model that is out of deny the witch range or that is closer to a juicy target than a screen, etc. Both of these features give them tactical flexibility you can exploit. 4. The zoanthrope units can cast 2x at 4+ models. Tyranids have some great psychic powers. Having 3 units of zoanthropes gives us a very powerful psychic backbone that can buff our troops or debuff our enemies. 5. If your enemy is stupid enough to group up, you can dump psychic barrage on them. It has some great potential but is swingy so mileage will vary. (I've used it 3x and deleted one of my opponents flanks in twice, but did nothing the 3rd time). I don't deny that they are decently tanky (against the right guns), my problem is their damage output for 700 points. Your casting on 5-6-7, that is likely one failed cast right there so 4d3 damage is imo a much more reasonable assumption then 6, even if you add in a Neuro for re-rolls 1's because now your casting on a 5 through 8. you are going to fail 1, if not 2 of those (and you don't want to use the Neurothope first because that is a d3 smite that makes a 2d3 smite harder to get off). A second Neurontrope and your paying 95 points for re-roll 1's because he sure aint getting that 9 to cast off anywhere near reliably. And I just can't see 4d3 mortal wounds for 700 points as a good investment. Atleast stuff like Broodlords and Hive Tyrants also have shooting or good combat, a Zoanthrope only has his smite.
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Post by zimko on Aug 14, 2020 14:45:38 GMT
Here's the thing about 4d3 mortals. It's consistant damage no matter what kind of defensive buffs your opponent has. The kinds of units that brawl in the center are VERY resilient. 4++, max 4+ to wound and/or -1 to hit and/or -1 damage and/or 5+++. All these buff keep stacking together to the point where you're lucky if your Hive Guard can remove 2 models after double shooting. The Exocrine is in a similar boat but it's so cheap that there's no reason not to take Exocrine with your Zoanthropes.
But the thing is, Zoanthropes dont fall over after dealing their damage. The Exocrine gets deleted easily. Hive Guard continue to shoot throughout the game but they're not taking objectives and you quickly run out of CP to double-shoot them.
Zoanthropes are resilient enough to survive punishment, deal damage AND take objectives. That is their value. If you are disregarding the 3rd unit's smite because WC 7 is apparently too difficult with rerolling 1s... then you're basically saying that 3x5 Zoanthropes' damage output is not reduced until they lose 8 models. That is 24 wounds at 3++.
The healing from a Neurothrope doesn't matter. All you need the Neurothrope for is rerolling 1s, a reliable Catalyst and/or psychic action caster (which btw does not turn off his reroll 1 aura. I'm not sure where you got that idea).
Zoanthropes are our replacement for Warriors because warriors just suck at their job. They aren't resilient enough to brawl on objectives, and their damage output is pathetic. So instead we're running Zoanthropes who dont need CP to be effective, and can survive a lot of punishment.
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Post by No One on Aug 14, 2020 14:51:10 GMT
which btw does not turn off his reroll 1 aura. I'm not sure where you got that idea ...Huh, didn't realise psychic actions didn't cop all the restrictions of other actions. Was wondering why people were bothering with them...
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Post by zimko on Aug 14, 2020 15:17:46 GMT
Yeah, a psychic action is basically just a psychic power that prevents you from casting any other psychic power. You're free to do things like advance and still use it.
Psychic Ritual is one of my favorite secondaries.
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Post by kazetanade on Aug 14, 2020 15:58:45 GMT
That.. changes some tHings. Huh.
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Aug 14, 2020 16:03:18 GMT
FYI, did a boatload of math hammer: here's the gist: Reroll 1s warp charge vs casting percentage: 5: 94% 6: 85% 7: 73% 8: 57%
With the chance of super smite, 3 units of 2d3 zoans + a neurothrope yields an average of 12.1 mortal wounds per turn. That's not including any reroll on damage, etc.
With three zoans + reroll 1s casting smite, you expect to cast 2.52 smites successfully, so slightly in favor of 3 smites but only slightly.
@no One I'm stating positives for zoans as gorg had asked as to why anyone would bring them. Smite scaling + cost are a draw back but they do give us durability and some flexibility + ways to remove tough units. I don't think they're a magic bullet but they're a tool that can be used surgically.
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Post by kwisatzhaderach on Aug 14, 2020 16:05:32 GMT
I can't help but look at these Zoanthrope lists and see ~700 points doing 4d3 mortals to the closest target and thinking "how is this good" (cause failing 1 out of 3 tests isn't unexpected) Before the faq stopped multiple smites I could see the value but now? What am I missing here? I have to admit, I was in the exact same boat as you before I gave that list a try. I didn't really get how Zoanthropes could possibly be good - they're expensive T4 3++ save models that are only good in the movement and psychic phases. You really have to try them out in a game or two to really see how effective Levi Zoanthropes are. Contextually, they are also an amazing meta call. People are going more elite with their choices, and people are packing more elite killing weapons - read - less shots, but more AP and more damage. All of which Zoans really just don't care about. I had a unit of Zoanthropes tank an Eradicator shooting phase and only lose 1 guy. No other unit in the Tyranid army could say the same. Regarding failing tests - yes, it will happen. I find that the army's expenditure of CP sees probably 1 CP per psychic phase. One thing that was also brought up in the podcast posted was that you're also increasing your chance of getting super smites. And you can also give one unit Psychic Scream, so it's putting out a potential 3D3 mortal wounds in one turn. Pretty much nothing can stand up against that for very long. The last part I'll say is that in the list I posted (15 zoans and 8 ridgerunners) is that you are extremely mobile, and you put out an insane amount of firepower. You can blow up anything that even looks at you wrong. :edit: Posted the updated list here with changes I would make: thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/58227/levi-zoanthrope-hivecult-ridgerunner-spam
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Post by harryharuspex on Aug 14, 2020 23:50:47 GMT
Do folks still believe in Zoey spam in the age of 2w Marines? Against them in particular, you're half as effective. I still ran Zoeys against Primaris lists (and they did okay, though psychic stuff is just too swingy period), but I think as soon as these new books roll out and every army has inflated wound counts (which I expect), this particular tactic becomes much less interesting. I hope we'll get some true Warp Blast analog back and Zoanthropes can return to their halcyon days of whomping Land Raiders and things.
But more to the current discussion topic... yeah, I'm kind of skeptical on the use of Zoanthropes. Especially given that you can't fall back and cast; all of a sudden, your opponent ties up your Zoanthrope blop with an Impulsor or some other transport and you're useless. I've played a lot of games with Zoeys too, and as much as I want them to work, I don't think they do the business for us.
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