9th edition now what?!

[niiai]

Aug 26, 2020 13:57:49 GMT kazetanade said:

I have a question on the list.

Assuming the enemy is playing a competitive list, he can control the centre with very tough units, and will be able to run aggro pushers into your deployment (notably Impulsors with Bladeguard Vets) and block out the midfield. How do you drop 50-90 men onto objectives when the aggro push units take up the entire midboard?

This is literally the only thing I can't brain in his list.

Good question. I have not studied all the missions but general there is more then one objective. So land on one and shoot him of the second?

While this list does not have attricion, it does have offensive power. Likevice scout models will hamper you a lot.

I wonder if perhaps IG or Nids can help this list out. Sentils can move out and grab objects. Perhaps other IG models do as well? Tyranids have done biovore spam earlier to deny movement. Forge World spore mines can deploy 9" away. There is also the 3 CP stratagem where you deploy mines 12" away from the enemy. They die very easy, but the idea is to hamper movement, no?

[kazetanade]

niiai blocking out the midfield implies he takes all the center objectives (which there is 3 or 4 normally), or at least denies you drop access to the objectives.

It looks like a really tight list - I dont think Nids can contribute a lot to it while retaining its gameplay, but more like Tyranids can simulate the gameplay while being better in a way (win some, lose some).

I actually have the models for it so I'll give it a try. A friend has their subscription which we're supposed to share so I'll listen in and report back later.

[niiai]

Look on the Outriders of the Swarm of Mieotic Spores. If you are looking to block movement it is a good place to start.

Grab some Biovores and atemt to miss as much as possible. Harpy also Spawns Spore Mines but less consistently and to exspensove.

[benlisted]

Aug 25, 2020 22:48:35 GMT hivemind03 said:

I havent finished listening but thought I'd jot down the list for yall since i didn't see it written anywhere. Disregard if it is
and I just missed it.

Patrol - Bladed Cog
Magus w/ Crouchling
Jackal Alphus
Iconward w/ relic banner
5x 10 Neophytes w/ 2 Mining Lasers
20 Neophytes w/ shotguns
Kellermorph

Patrol - mixed
Jackal Alphus
Patriarch w/ Familiar
15 Acolytes w/ 6 Rock Saws and Banner
5 Acolytes ( Mentioned later but not listed initially)
20 Neophytes w/ shotguns
6 Ridgerunners
Kellermorph
Sanctus

He must've meant Batallion for that first detachment. Also, he talks about using Brood Coven for 3 Warlord traits but I dont see how thats possible with this list.

So I have a strong suspicion the list is illegal. Pretty sure he was talking about the RRs and alphus being hivecult for the rr 1s WL trait, only the pat has to be WL. And the pat is definitely BC as he talks about the fearless aura for the neos. So, no HC wl trait. Be interested to hear if anyone got the same impression as he wasn’t totally clear. I’d like to be mistaken and they’re BC using the keler rerolls but not the first time I’ve seen pros who don’t really know an army fully get small but important rules wrong.

anyway this is a major difficulty with hivecult, you basically can’t run pats in a list with hc RRs without compromising optimal setups elsewhere. I am erring on the side of just running BC RRs and sucking up the loss of rerolls or using a keler.

also debating if min 5cp for vect (patrol plus strat) is worth it for this type of list which isn’t critically reliant on getting off deep strikes without being intercepted.

[gorsameth]

Technically you could run Brood Cover and give the Hivecult WLT to the Magus and use him with the RRs. You don't need to have both a Magus and a Primus (up to one X)

But yes GSC has a whole bunch of rules you need to account for that other armies don't have and someone picking them up to without a thorough reading of the codex can easily make an illegal list.

And no I don't think a 4AE Patrol purely for Vect is worth it. We're CP hungry as is. in 8th there was basically no cost to it so you might aswell bring it incase you need it but that is (fortunately for the game in general) no longer the case in 9th.

[No One]

No, it'd definitely be a mistake with the list as above: the magus would have to be BC. So unless he forgot to mention a primus in the mixed det as a battalion (which it sounds like is possible when it's just verbal from memory and then hivemind jotting down), it is illegal.

[Hive Bahamut]

So, we can either make a list that has so many moving parts, that it is inevitably broken, illegal, or requires a PhD in linguistics to comprehend to function. Or not. Let's try to keep it a little more in the scope of realism, so it can actually function on the tabletop against another player, and doesn't give them that feel badsies of taking 14 different concoctions just to win with some plastic dolls.

Another idea I have been trying to keep in play is making my list as open to variety as possible. Things like 10 Aco/Neo being interchangable in Trucks, etc. So far the Neophytes seem to be better suited still, essentially adding 4" to their movement.

I also think (especially with GSC) that we are going to have to suck it up and pick a detachment. I can't see how bleeding 2-3 CP for a couple additions makes sense. Especially Vect. In saying that I have been throwing around this idea:

Bladed Cog 2x Bat

Patriarch
Jackal

5x10 Neo w/Lasers

Kelermorph

3x Ridgerunners


Patriarch
Primus

4x5 Acolytes
1x20 Acolytes w/saws


Rest for flavour.

[benlisted]

Aug 27, 2020 0:28:58 GMT No One said:

No, it'd definitely be a mistake with the list as above: the magus would have to be BC. So unless he forgot to mention a primus in the mixed det as a battalion (which it sounds like is possible when it's just verbal from memory and then hivemind jotting down), it is illegal.

Yeah, he definitely was using broodcoven as he mentioned the Pat having alien majesty and the Magos the HI for nearby squads power. I suspect he just had the Alphus as the HC WL then used BC to give extra traits to the Pat and Magos, which isn't how it works ofc. You could indeed fix with a Primus in there with the HC trait, but I feel like you don't want to invest 150 or so points in supporting just your RRs. If you make the RRs BC then the melee elements and the ML neos benefit from the primus too.

The awkward thing about cult is nearly the only good units we currently have are troops, and their HQs to support. But you can only fit 6 in a Battalion which is simply not enough for most pure cult lists at the minute I feel. The double BC batt approach surely falls foul of the same issue as a second mixed detachment - you cut into your CP to take it? The problem is a brigade forces you to take HS and possibly elites stuff you otherwise wouldn't, and limits you to one of each character when you really want a second alphus for a load of neos and RRs. I get the sentiment in your post Bahamut, it's irritating just feeling like there is no good option in list building with cult in 9th. The cult traits/strats etc are too "this is the cult for X unit" for a single cult army to be at all ideal, the single character limit in a detachment is restrictive, and with multiple detachments eating into the CP we desperately need, there is literally no good way around this.

[kazetanade]

GSC was designed for 8th Ed, deffo.

Anyway, you can fix the list by not having WLT on Alphus, you lose rr1s for 6 models. It's not a crushing loss. I was half asleep when I was listening but I was pretty sure Kellermorphs were mentioned more about rerolls for Neophytes than Hive Cult WLT.

[niiai]

Yes! I build the list Alex talked about. This is the list he Described.

Note that he probably did make a msitake as the Patriarch should be in the Battalion Detachment, and the Iconward should be in the Patrol Dectahment to get an exstra CP.

If we do this this list uses these cp pregame:
Ekstra Patrol Dectachment -2 cp.
Ekstra Relic -1 cp.
Broodcoven -1 cp.
The Cults Psyke (upgrade psyker) -1 cp. Means we start in 7 cp in that case.

First detachement is bladed cog. Second detcahment is mixed. Rideruner and Alpha there are Hivecult. Sanctus and 5 man squad of acultes is 4 armed emperor. This unlocks Stratagem – Chilling Efficiency – 2CP for the riderunners, and Stratagem – A Plan Generations in the Making – 3CP. You do not need them unless in a very competetive setting. So far the list is in fact legal.

What I am unsure though is what you put into deepstrike reserves. My suggestion based in the podcast is this:
Magus 100
Iconward 60
Alpha (Bladed Cog) 75
Neophites mining lasers 1 80
Neophites mining lasers 2 80
Neophites mining lasers 3 80
Neophites mining lasers 4 80
Neophites mining lasers 5 80
Neophytes Shotgun (Pure Bladed Cog) 120
Kelle Morph 80

That is 835 points. Leaving 165 for a flex slot. My thoughts of this is down here.

You can not fit the Rocksaw group into that (as it is 190 points.) Mind you this is an asumption of mine. But Alex speaks about deepstriking 60 Neophites so I gues he sometimes drop Neophite mining laser squad 5 to include the Rocksaw group.

If you do not deepstrike the rocksaws, you can deepstrike the second shotgun squad (120) and 4-armed emperor 5 man squad of 5 acolytes (40 points.)

With two lying in wait stratagems (turn 2 and 3) your essential has a plan for 9 of your CP. Leaving 6 out of the 17 you get thorugh the game.

If you deepstrike the rocksaws and want to use a perfect ambush stratgagem you have a plan for 8 of your CP. Leaving 7 out of the 17 you get through the game.

++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [44 PL, 7CP, 835pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Cult Creed: The Bladed Cog

Detachment CP [-3CP]

+ Stratagems +

Grandsire's Gifts [-1CP]: 1 Extra Sacred Relic

+ HQ +

Acolyte Iconward [3 PL, 60pts]: Icon of the Cult Ascendant

Jackal Alphus [4 PL, 75pts]

Magus [6 PL, -1CP, 100pts]: Broodcoven Magus, Familiar, Power: Undying Vigour, Stratagem: The Cult's Psyche, The Crouchling, Warlord Trait: Focus of Adoration

+ Troops +

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 80pts]
. 7x Neophyte Hybrid: 7x Autogun, 7x Autopistol, 7x Blasting Charges
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Mining): 2x Autopistol, 2x Blasting Charges, 2x Mining Laser
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 80pts]
. 7x Neophyte Hybrid: 7x Autogun, 7x Autopistol, 7x Blasting Charges
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Mining): 2x Autopistol, 2x Blasting Charges, 2x Mining Laser
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 80pts]
. 7x Neophyte Hybrid: 7x Autogun, 7x Autopistol, 7x Blasting Charges
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Mining): 2x Autopistol, 2x Blasting Charges, 2x Mining Laser
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 80pts]
. 7x Neophyte Hybrid: 7x Autogun, 7x Autopistol, 7x Blasting Charges
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Mining): 2x Autopistol, 2x Blasting Charges, 2x Mining Laser
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 80pts]
. 7x Neophyte Hybrid: 7x Autogun, 7x Autopistol, 7x Blasting Charges
. 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Mining): 2x Autopistol, 2x Blasting Charges, 2x Mining Laser
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

Neophyte Hybrids [7 PL, 120pts]
. 19x Neophyte Hybrid (Shotgun): 19x Autopistol, 19x Blasting Charges, 19x Shotgun
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

+ Elites +

Kelermorph [4 PL, 80pts]

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [62 PL, -1CP, 1,140pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Cult Creed: None (Mixed Detachment)

Detachment CP

+ Stratagems +

Broodcoven [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Jackal Alphus [4 PL, 75pts]

Patriarch [8 PL, 150pts]: Familiar, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Alien Majesty

+ Troops +

Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 40pts]
. 4x Acolyte Hybrid: 4x Autopistol, 4x Blasting Charges, 4x Cultist Knife, 4x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife

Acolyte Hybrids [9 PL, 190pts]: Cult Icon
. 8x Acolyte Hybrid: 8x Autopistol, 8x Blasting Charges, 8x Cultist Knife, 8x Rending Claw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife

Neophyte Hybrids [7 PL, 120pts]
. 19x Neophyte Hybrid (Shotgun): 19x Autopistol, 19x Blasting Charges, 19x Shotgun
. Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol

+ Elites +

Kelermorph [4 PL, 80pts]

Sanctus [3 PL, 65pts]: Silencer Sniper Rifle

+ Fast Attack +

Achilles Ridgerunners [12 PL, 210pts]
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber

Achilles Ridgerunners [12 PL, 210pts]
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
. Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber

++ Total: [106 PL, 6CP, 1,975pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

[benlisted]

Aug 27, 2020 15:28:54 GMT niiai said:

Yes! I build the list Alex talked about. This is the list he Described.

Note that he probably did make a msitake as the Patriarch should be in the Battalion Detachment, and the Iconward should be in the Patrol Dectahment to get an exstra CP.

If we do this this list uses these cp pregame:
Ekstra Patrol Dectachment -2 cp.
Ekstra Relic -1 cp.
Broodcoven -1 cp.
The Cults Psyke (upgrade psyker) -1 cp. Means we start in 7 cp in that case.

First detachement is bladed cog. Second detcahment is mixed. Rideruner and Alpha there are Hivecult. Sanctus and 5 man squad of acultes is 4 armed emperor. This unlocks Stratagem – Chilling Efficiency – 2CP for the riderunners, and Stratagem – A Plan Generations in the Making – 3CP. You do not need them unless in a very competetive setting. So far the list is in fact legal.

Good effort rebuilding it - but there is still a problem! You are right that if you don't make the HC Alphus your warlord the list is legal, but that then begs the question, why make the RRs HC at all? As you say it unlocks Chilling Efficiency, but with modifiers capped at +/-1, the strat is a total waste as you already have a HC Alphus. By being HC you give yourself the ability to throw CP away to do the same as the Alphus already does, whilst missing out on the potential Kelermorph buffs (presumably the Kelers are BC). Basically you may as well just make the RRs and second Alphus BC as without the HC WL trait the cult is worthless.

I'd also suspect you start some of the ML neos on the board, as you need bodies down t1 in 9th, and they can move 6" to get a better angle if need be.

[niiai]

Tnx. I appreciate the apriciation.

I like the list in general. But the spesific can be a bit odd, like the cult trait.

I guess I would need to see how many times I would need the stratagem. You havd some good points. But with the number of -1 to hit, having +2 to hit can be worth it.

It really is the second alpha and the second kellermorph that demands the second detchament. Alex mentions that a primus is a good substetite for the kellermorph. (Remember he gets a command trait as well. The BC is really good!)

If you drop the 2. alpha, 2. kellermorph, split one ridgerunner squad, add a primus and 3 heavy weapon teams (perhaps a sentinel?) you can runn a full brigade and get more CP.

With more CP you can use return to the shadow and deepstrike the acolites with APA.

Further speculations would be appreciated.

[kazetanade]

So, the list actually runs without much CP use.

2 CP Lying in Wait, x2
3 CP Perfect Ambush, for the 1 Aco squad
1 CP They Came From Below

That's the standard cp use, the rest are on requirement or on demand.

One thing about the list that's completely slipped my mind is that it also starts on the table much better due to smaller table. Starting 70 or 80% on the table is a viable strategy, using only LiW or small Aco units to grab Secondaries is viable tactical changes, but how do you handle that when you have to decide what goes into reserves before the game/during list building, not sure yet. Probably judicious use of They Came From Below.

I did not hear any particular reason why HC RRs instead of BC RRs, but keep in mind that Kellermorphs only buff infantry so the RRs can only ever get a reroll to hit from HC WLT.

I do not remember if Patriarch is mentioned what Cult, but remember with an Iconward giving 6+++ and leadership buff, Neophytes are nearly fearless anyways. You can easily swap the Patty for the Iconward, the only reason I kept him at all prev was for rr wounds WLT from BC (which makes more sense IMO than HC's WLT).

You probably get not much value for making it BC RRs, so leaving it HC just gives you the potential of unlocking it. For EG if you need to shoot into Dense terrain, that +2 of yours actually comes in useful (and will be very useful when trying to pop a damn Immolater or some other stupid tank sitting on the edge of a forest).

There are 2 Kellermorphs and 2 Jackals, I think.

25pts spare are probably in GLs or something in the Neophyte squads, I think your rebuild caught the entire list.

Based on my understanding of Neophytes speed and scoring ability, you're basically super reliant on very good LiW placements on your 20/20 mens to turn the game. Those 2 units are your game winning playmakers. Everything else is just lascannons against tough stuff, overload of chaff shots at not so tough stuff (one of the few good proponents for full BC instead of mix, IMO, Jackals nominating 2 enemy targets for 2 gun profiles).

Anyone that takes out infantry really harshly, and anyone that can really swamp your face upfront, poses fair bit of challenge and difficulty to turn the game around. Play with caution.

[niiai]

Yeah. Very good summary of you if I say so myself.

- They talked about how Patriarch usualy has a bigger aura. So I do not think Alex had him in Hive Cult for aura. That beeing said Alex is not a divine prophet. It makes sense considering it.

- Let me also raise the stakes on that. You can use a primus instead of the second kellermorph. That primus can take the hivecult aura.

- Instead why not drop the second kelermorph for a primus with bladed cog aura and have all units beeing bladed cog.

- There are some points left. You can use it on weapons (grenade launchers, hand flamers, saw) or on more familiars.

- I forgot They Came from Below. Using that on the 3 most exspive units, you can deepstrike well over 50% of your points. There is a problem though.

- Also, I forgot to check if 50% of your units actually start on the table. I sugested deepstriking 12 units. The list contains 19 units, so 10 needs to start on the table. They came from below can fix this. You do not push over 12 units.

[kazetanade]

I've personally tried the Hive Cult Primus with Heart of Cult (rr1s everywhere) and while yes it's pretty decent, with only 6 RRs I'd venture to say you're not getting that much mileage out of it throughout the game for the level of gymnastics you have to do to make it work well.

Having rr1s for your Autoguns going into an infantry target is a way bigger deal due to volume I think - the lasers only get an average of 6 shots, so you're getting rerolls on 12 shots, 2 rerolls, 1 extra hit across 2 units. For the stubber we're talking 18 shots per unit, so 3 rerolls and 2 extra hits per unit (assumed all 3+ hit).

9 RRs I think it gets close to big value though. My list was built around utilising RR damage more than the infantry blob so the extra rerolls really helped. But I'll be honest, I had more issues with killing infantry (the medium elite infantry kind like primaris and sisters) compared to killing tanks, and did not really need the reroll wounds for the tanks. Its still good to have though just in case.

Keller morph is good this edition. I think having 2 is OK, definitely not the worst choice.