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Post by mule on Feb 19, 2020 15:59:39 GMT
S6 is more relevant because you want S6 against cents. You will lose against every ravenguard and IF player if you're not running a way to get S6. 4AE isn't good, that's already been proven via players trying it out. PA didn't give 4AE anything useful. Footslogging a (please do not swear) tonne of acolytes and being able to move advance and charge with 2 of them is the way to go while you deepstrike the buff characters and take a deepstruck shooty platform like exo's and neo's. S6 is easy, the banner gives +1, the might from beyond is another +1. The difference is that TH aco's need a lot less buffs. I'm not trying to deepstrike them, I start them on the board near a clamavus so they get +3 to their advance, so now they're moving 6+3+d6 every turn and i can tell if they're in range, so end of movement i can drop my psychic combo of 1 patty 1 magus with crouchy for the +2 to cast on stimulus. Sanctus drops in and moves d6 and acolyte with banner drops in to give re rolls. If stimulus doesn't go off I still have the backup stratagem. If it does go off then I have the ability to advance charge another unit for 1 cp. Basically you play as if every unit are abberants but they're only 150 points so you can take 6x20 of them with no saws for 600 points.
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Post by mule on Feb 19, 2020 16:04:24 GMT
S6 is more relevant because you want S6 against cents. You will lose against every ravenguard and IF player if you're not running a way to get S6. Banner and might. Or just go S5 with saws, and/or +1 to wound with draw blood, probably get transhumaned anyway. It's really not a must: I haven't lost to RG with cents yet (sometimes really close and I haven't played a mass cent list piloted by a good player yet, so don't take this as the answer or anything , but I haven't), and I don't think I've ever reached S6. I haven't always killed the cents because they weren't the focus of the list (e.g. aggressors instead, which are basically just slightly worse cents), but I've won on VP. And I'm still doing fine here with FAE. Making 7" charges to not really want to change anytime soon... I've lost too many games with 7 inch rerollable charges that i'm just done. You need so many buff units coming down to make it worth it. I'm just going to take 120+ aco's that have + to charge and can mulch things in melee, with a strong shooting base like waterfalled exo's and hiveguard. Then use the rest of my drops to buff the aco's. If they're shooting the aco's they're not shooting my other threats. Same idea as genestealers, I don't really care if they're shelling the aco's cause i've got so many of them that any unit is a threat. Play them cagey use LOS and charge through walls. I haven't played it yet, first game should be this weekend as we're finishing up the league. But I'm pretty sure it'll play much better than having a few aco drops that you have to vect auspex and then deny overwatch and then make it in. I'm not about that life anymore. Too many times i've rolled double 3's on the charge.
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Post by No One on Feb 19, 2020 16:08:24 GMT
...Yeah, unless you've got good terrain, good luck not getting evaporated by anything that can sit ~24" away and shoot you. Because your average threat range is 20.5", you'll be lucky to clear no mans land (well, PA gets there, which is neat). And as someone who plays 100 acolytes on the regular, armies can pick up that many pretty easily when uncontested (not necessarily one shooting phase, but it's rare for me to not get basically tabled if I don't get good kills or hostages on drops).
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 19, 2020 16:20:34 GMT
I only do it with Abby's because they survive running across the table, and survive going 2nd in a time of mass indirect and anti infantry fire.
If it works for you, all the more power - 120 Acos running the field is not to be trifled, assuming they manage to make it across with no double move gimmicks, and unless they are super prepared for this (or have eliminators), they can't thin your models fast enough to render you toothless.
This is of course fodder for the RG or IF or any Cents that DS or walk into range on the table.
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Post by mule on Feb 19, 2020 16:50:58 GMT
I only do it with Abby's because they survive running across the table, and survive going 2nd in a time of mass indirect and anti infantry fire. If it works for you, all the more power - 120 Acos running the field is not to be trifled, assuming they manage to make it across with no double move gimmicks, and unless they are super prepared for this (or have eliminators), they can't thin your models fast enough to render you toothless. This is of course fodder for the RG or IF or any Cents that DS or walk into range on the table. RG you can screen out of range and then sling forwards on your turn, or do deepstrike bombs vs them. I did it in our league (which was on the itc maps) and killed all 18 cents in a turn with 4AE pre PA. It's still a rough matchup but the options are still there, losing the +1 charge isn't great but having on demand +2 to wound, is well worth it. Really makes your aco's be able to rip through IH stuff and rip through transhuman, as every 4+ is a -4 with claws.
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Post by No One on Feb 20, 2020 4:55:28 GMT
RG you can screen out of range and then sling forwards on your turn, or do deepstrike bombs vs them. They're 24"/27". Screening that's a stretch. And if you do, well they just sit 26" away and you basically just can't charge that (even a 6" advance means ~10-11" charge).
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 20, 2020 7:35:17 GMT
Imma just say it works on paper, I think it's interesting, I will get tabled if I tried it in my meta. I lose close to 60 Gaunts in a turn 1 shootout against anything not a 9 Flier Eldar army, and range is not the determining factor.
If I eschew killing 3 units and instead use it to kill 1 but seriously maim 4 more, that's your game gone. You have to throw them into DS to keep them healthy and alive.
If it's working in yours then of course I'd say keep on it. I like the concept and find it interesting. I was going to test a BC Laser version of it.
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 20, 2020 12:17:34 GMT
I lose close to 60 Gaunts in a turn 1 shootout against anything not a 9 Flier Eldar army, and range is not the determining factor. You need to play the 6++ on gribblies custom hive fleet. Are you using a malanthrope? Is there any terrain? Not that many lists can put down 60 bodies per turn. If they can, and it's common, maybe run nidzilla as they won't have quality shots. I love lass cannons and grav cents with my gribblies list: oh, you brought multiple damage, high AP guns? I brought a 6++ invul and 300+ single wound bodies!
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Post by No One on Feb 20, 2020 13:28:14 GMT
I mean, unless terrain's really good, you're not hiding 100+ bodies well enough to dodge firepower. In my experience (acolytes, which is admittedly optimal range, sometimes combat, no mal/cepter, but 5+/6+++ and usually damage before retaliation), I'm usually losing 2 squads, 3 if I don't do much on the drop (sometimes even if I do: game before last I killed 2 of his best anti infantry and still lost basically all 60 acolytes I dropped. This would've been less effective across the table. But the 2 models I killed would've been alive to shoot T1 instead: admittedly in this specific instance mal just kills it, since this was tesla, but the idea stands).
Also, this is a discussion on footslogging acos at the moment, which don't get 6++ (though can have 6+++) or mal. Personally think it's optimistic they'll do much.
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 20, 2020 15:37:59 GMT
I lose close to 60 Gaunts in a turn 1 shootout against anything not a 9 Flier Eldar army, and range is not the determining factor. You need to play the 6++ on gribblies custom hive fleet. Are you using a malanthrope? Is there any terrain? Not that many lists can put down 60 bodies per turn. If they can, and it's common, maybe run nidzilla as they won't have quality shots. I love lass cannons and grav cents with my gribblies list: oh, you brought multiple damage, high AP guns? I brought a 6++ invul and 300+ single wound bodies! It was my behemoth Sling, so yes I had a Malanthrope. The original concept had 90 Gaunts instead of GS, and no Maleceptor, so it was taking the raw damage. Having the Maleceptor and Prepared Positions or Jormungandr in addition to Malanthrope changed things extremely drastically in terms of how many survived. It also wasn't geared as a 300 gaunt list, I can't physically play that list. But yea if I was playing a gaunt centric list I'd run Leviathan or the custom Fleet, since so many things ignore cover. That doesn't do anything about mules 120 Aco list, I was merely using my 60 Gaunts as a parallel to a 120 man TH Aco footslog list. I mean, RG Cents deploy back if you go first so you can never charge them, they deploy in your face if you go 2nd, they run and charge and get +2 to charge so you can't set your blips far back enough to run away if you go 2nd (you have to pull into reserve and accept your losing a chunk. 60 Gaunts is eating most if not all of an enemy's shooting - only RG Cents have completely decimated my infantry in a single turn. Everything else has been a good trade, but it's just a fact of life.
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 20, 2020 15:49:11 GMT
I mean, RG Cents deploy back if you go first so you can never charge them, they deploy in your face if you go 2nd, they run and charge and get +2 to charge so you can't set your blips far back enough to run away if you go 2nd (you have to pull into reserve and accept your losing a chunk. Use the CP to put out extra blips. Then no matter where they go they still have to stay 9" away. If you use the ones they are close to as the decoys, they can easily be over 12" away or at the very least only charging 1 unit. With 300 bodies I don't care. They likely kill 1 unit and spend the rest of the game trying to dig out. Acid blood goes a long way in a tarpit list too once they make combat. That plus smites kills the unit fairly quickly. Gargs can use fleshborers as pistols and +1 to wound to pick up a few more wounds. I've found them fairly easy to tear down once you get them in combat. At least much better than taking hurricane bolters to the face.
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Post by hiveoverall on Feb 20, 2020 16:10:52 GMT
I mean, RG Cents deploy back if you go first so you can never charge them, they deploy in your face if you go 2nd, they run and charge and get +2 to charge so you can't set your blips far back enough to run away if you go 2nd (you have to pull into reserve and accept your losing a chunk. Use the CP to put out extra blips. Then no matter where they go they still have to stay 9" away. If you use the ones they are close to as the decoys, they can easily be over 12" away or at the very least only charging 1 unit. With 300 bodies I don't care. They likely kill 1 unit and spend the rest of the game trying to dig out. Acid blood goes a long way in a tarpit list too once they make combat. That plus smites kills the unit fairly quickly. Gargs can use fleshborers as pistols and +1 to wound to pick up a few more wounds. I've found them fairly easy to tear down once you get them in combat. At least much better than taking hurricane bolters to the face. If I played assault centurions VS your 300 gaunt list I would just stay away at 20-23", and just focus down the gargoyles to avoid their tarpitting capacity (currently they are one of the best tarpit units in the game), then push closer as hormas don't have as much range. In any case assault cents are much better at clearing chaff from a distance than in CC, son IMHO only a very bad player (sorry to say this) would make the mistake of getting close with them against a 300 body list.
So Matt as you play in a very comp environment, how are assault cents played vs your list ? Certainly not by coming close to your tide of gribblies ?
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 20, 2020 16:28:18 GMT
So Matt as you play in a very comp environment, how are assault cents played vs your list ? Certainl y not by coming close to your tide of gribblies ?Typically by leafblowing with the hurricane bolters. Even then though, If I can touch them I'm doing ok. If they concede the middle of the table with their bully unit I really believe the new ITC points lets this list get way up on points early. That should really help. I haven't really seen cents able to resist the bum rush because bullying is their thing.
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 20, 2020 17:05:11 GMT
Bumrush with Horms is hard, yea, assuming your charge survives. Its 12d6 Flamers and 72 Bolter shots rerolling and rr wounds of 1, how do your chaff units even survive that? You'd have to charge outside of 11" range to avoid the flamers, and you lose like 17 to the bolters alone.
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Post by calbanite on Feb 20, 2020 17:24:28 GMT
Worth running termagant carpet with a token Gorgon Broodlord? 9 inch bubble for AP+1
Smite support and a decent melee fighter.
Take the Fleet for AP+1 when outnumbering and and 6++ (with Malanthrope bubble)
Kronos Batt w/ Dermic Symbiosis Exocrine and block of warriors and HG.
Would you think Ignore AP1/2 is better on the warriors or HG? I'm scared of thunderfires poking the HG to death with AP2?
Warriors get catalyst and have the -1 damage strat if needed.
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