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Post by elitehatter on Feb 13, 2020 15:35:34 GMT
Hello Hive Mind, I was thinking about the "Broviathan" list and all that went into building it. And while Nids have FAR from that level of bustedness. It did get me to thinking about what our most efficient units/strategems/Hive Fleet combos are.
Obviously a buffed Kronos Exocrine, any Hive Tyrant, 6 Hive Guard, the humble ripper, and a unit of Warriors can hold up well for what they bring to bear. I was wondering what else could be fit into a list to bring up the most reliable results in any given ITC match.
Any and all ideas are welcome, though I am specifically thinking pure Nids, no GSC if it can be helped.
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 13, 2020 16:22:35 GMT
Hello Hive Mind, I was thinking about the "Broviathan" list and all that went into building it. And while Nids have FAR from that level of bustedness. It did get me to thinking about what our most efficient units/strategems/Hive Fleet combos are. Obviously a buffed Kronos Exocrine, any Hive Tyrant, 6 Hive Guard, the humble ripper, and a unit of Warriors can hold up well for what they bring to bear. I was wondering what else could be fit into a list to bring up the most reliable results in any given ITC match. Any and all ideas are welcome, though I am specifically thinking pure Nids, no GSC if it can be helped. Gaunt carpet (300 plus bodies) backed by zoans and malanthrope and a unit of 6 hive guard is the most ITC eficient. Nick Nanavati says that's the best list. When I was talking to Siegler at our last RTT he said that's the best list. It's currently the one I'm running although with horms and gargs because that's models I have. I haven't lost with it yet, but neither have I played it outside of playtesting (but I have some really good team mates to help work the kinks out). I use the build your own trait with 6++ save on gribblies and -1 when you outnumber in close combat. You HAVE to have movement trays in order to not get clocked out. Keep the game close for the first 3 turns while increasingly applying board pressure. Save all your CP for charges you have to make, metabolic overdrive if needed and most importantly the shoot 2x with hive guard. Kill 1 unit per turn and win on objectives. It really works but it's physically exhausting to play. There's probably a decent 3 exocrine, unit of hiveguard with 9 ridgerunners list but you don't want to do GSC. I've also played 6 hive guard, 3 exos (2 in t-cytes to waterfall them) and a rock saw bomb to decent effect, but it has some really bad matchups. It's really good against possessed bomb because you can kill the rest of the army and then start pulling out characters which dismantles the list. It simply dies to the Brovathan list though.
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 13, 2020 17:30:02 GMT
I think there's play with a maleceptor in there because it affects everything in that list well.
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Feb 13, 2020 17:41:15 GMT
Depending upon missions and meta I can see the following builds/fleets. I'm repeating some of the above as well:
1) gaunt carpet for board control. Use either leviathan or a custom fleet to boost survivability 2) kronos shooting: exocrines, warriors, hive guard being boosted by their shooting power 3) jormungandr deepstrike - use their power + deepstriking units to eliminate threats 4) jormungandr monster shooting. Get 2+ saves and try to weather the storm 5) kraken stealer sling. Charge up the field and sling stealers with swarmy. 6) behemoth: stealer sling and probably some flyrants dropping to eliminate tough threats. 7) warrior spam: big units or small. Use Kronos, jormungandr, leviathan, or a custom fleet depending upon the desired feel of the list you want.
Mileage will vary and effectiveness can be countered. For example, stealer sling can be shutdown by a thunderfire cannon + strat to halve movement and charge range (might be able to counter this by bringing 3+ units of stealers, but who knows).
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 13, 2020 18:31:59 GMT
3 unit of Stealers + SL is 1k points... That's half the army.
If you're really keyed in for a on table charge, just play Hormagants instead of GS. With +1 to wound, and their strategem, they actually can get stuff done. It tested well in almost all my test games as long as you don't spread their damage too thin, it's perfect for "I need to kill this mediocre unit and wrap that" approach. They even managed to kill 1 or 2 centurion models themselves, which is a hell of an achievement.
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Feb 13, 2020 18:50:51 GMT
3 unit of Stealers + SL is 1k points... That's half the army. If you're really keyed in for a on table charge, just play Hormagants instead of GS. With +1 to wound, and their strategem, they actually can get stuff done. It tested well in almost all my test games as long as you don't spread their damage too thin, it's perfect for "I need to kill this mediocre unit and wrap that" approach. They even managed to kill 1 or 2 centurion models themselves, which is a hell of an achievement. I generally go all in if I run stealers (last time I ran 100). I do need to play around with hormogaunts more. I worry about their damage output as they're AP0.
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 13, 2020 18:56:12 GMT
3 unit of Stealers + SL is 1k points... That's half the army. If you're really keyed in for a on table charge, just play Hormagants instead of GS. With +1 to wound, and their strategem, they actually can get stuff done. It tested well in almost all my test games as long as you don't spread their damage too thin, it's perfect for "I need to kill this mediocre unit and wrap that" approach. They even managed to kill 1 or 2 centurion models themselves, which is a hell of an achievement. I generally go all in if I run stealers (last time I ran 100). I do need to play around with hormogaunts more. I worry about their damage output as they're AP0. Mine are all AP-1 when I outnumber (hint: if you don't outnumber you probably shouldn't be charging that unit), AP-2 with the strat, up to AP-3 if they killed a unit. I find the AP-1 sufficient in most cases.
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Post by killercroc on Feb 13, 2020 18:58:59 GMT
The outnumber for AP -1 is a pretty big thing for us, especially with how swarmy the army is and how elite the things we fight are. Even our little bugs can be a threat besides just locking units up with AP -1 so now those Hormies are a threat! It's great!
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Post by wormlord666 on Feb 13, 2020 20:12:30 GMT
I think most viable options thats been tested yet is mentioned above, but it is worth mentioning that comparing it to the broviathan list is not even close. That list, when played by someone who understand it, basicly stands still and wins the game. All our builds demand clever movement, clever target priority, careful placement for auras etc and if anything goes wrong there we risk immidiate extinction. So going by just efficiancy is not enough. We need really clever playing as well. (All respect to brohammer, of course they are all excellent players aswell on top of there broken list)
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Feb 13, 2020 20:42:26 GMT
I generally go all in if I run stealers (last time I ran 100). I do need to play around with hormogaunts more. I worry about their damage output as they're AP0. Mine are all AP-1 when I outnumber (hint: if you don't outnumber you probably shouldn't be charging that unit), AP-2 with the strat, up to AP-3 if they killed a unit. I find the AP-1 sufficient in most cases. Good point. I forgot about their strat. Kaz had mentioned the +1 to wound, so I was assuming behemoth. The comment on outnumbering made me laugh. If you're not outnumbered horms manage to perfectly kill a unit of anything, I think you should buy a lotto ticket.
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 14, 2020 0:57:41 GMT
I think most viable options thats been tested yet is mentioned above, but it is worth mentioning that comparing it to the broviathan list is not even close. That list, when played by someone who understand it, basicly stands still and wins the game. All our builds demand clever movement, clever target priority, careful placement for auras etc and if anything goes wrong there we risk immidiate extinction. So going by just efficiancy is not enough. We need really clever playing as well. (All respect to brohammer, of course they are all excellent players aswell on top of there broken list) I don’t agree. Broviathon can kill maybe 50 per turn? That leaves you with 50+ on turn 6 from the invul save. That wins the game if you are playing objectives. Use the hive guard shooting 2x per turn if needed to take out snipers. You should be fine.
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Post by No One on Feb 14, 2020 1:45:13 GMT
That wins the game if you are playing objectives. Except for ITC, it doesn't. Now, it can, but: you need to get kill every turn, and either bonus or prevent them getting hold. All while maxing secondaries (because I don't think there's anything to stop them getting maxed). Doable? Yes. But it's got 40 intercessors with 5+++: it's objective game isn't exactly weak. So getting bonus reliably/contesting hold isn't something that I think happens with any regularity (I might be wrong though, not exactly experienced with the format or the list ). Secondaries are probably fine (no indirect to contest engineers, provided LoS blocker. Recon's easy. And then...something else?). Kill is relying a lot on the hive guard: no way of threatening them in the brohammer list, and should be fairly easy to confirm that for most turns with double tap, even with 5+++. Esp with zoans to pick up any dregs. I mean, seems reasonable, but I don't think you win just because you don't die and hold objectives in ITC.
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Post by angrypomeranian on Feb 14, 2020 12:01:09 GMT
"Broviathan" list?What is that?
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Post by No One on Feb 14, 2020 12:04:00 GMT
Character Leviathan, triple chappy dread supported by a bunch of intercessors with Feirros/chief apothecary for cogitated martyrdom (palm wounds off to intercessors). Holds midfield really well, with a bunch of basically unkillable dreads. Everyone from Brohammer ran it (and Siegler won LVO with it), hence the name.
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 14, 2020 13:15:15 GMT
I mean, seems reasonable, but I don't think you win just because you don't die and hold objectives in ITC. Well of course not. You have to kill a unit per turn too, but that is that the hive guard are for. Even with indirect fire you don't care because you ignore -1 and -2 AP and will have a -1 to hit. I might even put catalyst on them if I think necessary. They have to contribute to win a game. They also have 3 units of 3 primaris snipers in the list. That's a kill for turns 1-2 maybe three if you don't get lucky enough to kill 2 on a turn. I don't know the exact math, but I know opponents have been surprised at how long a 30 man gribbly unit hangs around with a 6++. My favorite trick is put catalyst on a garg unit, and double move them right into their face but trailing back for the fearless bubble (of course you can't shoot or charge, but that doesn't matter, it's like throwing a jab), most opponents think you have catalyst up because you have a plan and the movement is terrifying (24 + 2x D6). If they try to kill that unit, they will have to chew through 30 wounds with a 6++ and 5+++ and a -1 to hit. It's really hard to do. If they take the bait then my hive guard and rest of the gribblies will try to pick up 2 easy kills for a kill more.
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