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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Feb 14, 2020 13:50:34 GMT
You could burn a CP to give the garg unit the heroic intervention adaptation. You can then be in their face, harder to kill, and about ready to crash their lines without suffering overwatch.
I've used metabolic overdrive occasionally as well for a similar play and it works. It forces your opponent to deal with the immediate threat.
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Post by naviedzony on Feb 17, 2020 7:47:25 GMT
Gargoyles are not a threat, they are an annoyance.
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Post by No One on Feb 17, 2020 7:52:59 GMT
Against some armies, they're a legitimate 'my army no longer functions' threat. I think meta's moving less and less to combat vulnerable stuff though: Eldar and Tau both don't care, most Chaos won't care too much, and marines are...sometimes maybe, but they can often punch their way out even outside of the Fly builds. Less so if it's a full 30 man gargoyle blob hostaging and touching dreads/eliminators/cents etc.
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Post by timcz on Feb 17, 2020 8:29:35 GMT
Hello Hive Mind, I was thinking about the "Broviathan" list and all that went into building it. And while Nids have FAR from that level of bustedness. It did get me to thinking about what our most efficient units/strategems/Hive Fleet combos are. Obviously a buffed Kronos Exocrine, any Hive Tyrant, 6 Hive Guard, the humble ripper, and a unit of Warriors can hold up well for what they bring to bear. I was wondering what else could be fit into a list to bring up the most reliable results in any given ITC match. Any and all ideas are welcome, though I am specifically thinking pure Nids, no GSC if it can be helped. Gaunt carpet (300 plus bodies) backed by zoans and malanthrope and a unit of 6 hive guard is the most ITC eficient. Nick Nanavati says that's the best list. When I was talking to Siegler at our last RTT he said that's the best list. It's currently the one I'm running although with horms and gargs because that's models I have. I haven't lost with it yet, but neither have I played it outside of playtesting (but I have some really good team mates to help work the kinks out). I use the build your own trait with 6++ save on gribblies and -1 when you outnumber in close combat. You HAVE to have movement trays in order to not get clocked out. Keep the game close for the first 3 turns while increasingly applying board pressure. Save all your CP for charges you have to make, metabolic overdrive if needed and most importantly the shoot 2x with hive guard. Kill 1 unit per turn and win on objectives. It really works but it's physically exhausting to play. There's probably a decent 3 exocrine, unit of hiveguard with 9 ridgerunners list but you don't want to do GSC. I've also played 6 hive guard, 3 exos (2 in t-cytes to waterfall them) and a rock saw bomb to decent effect, but it has some really bad matchups. It's really good against possessed bomb because you can kill the rest of the army and then start pulling out characters which dismantles the list. It simply dies to the Brovathan list though. Wow 300+ is insane. Ever get called up for slow play or do you manage it pretty well with the movement trays?
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Post by mule on Feb 17, 2020 11:29:47 GMT
Hello Hive Mind, I was thinking about the "Broviathan" list and all that went into building it. And while Nids have FAR from that level of bustedness. It did get me to thinking about what our most efficient units/strategems/Hive Fleet combos are. Obviously a buffed Kronos Exocrine, any Hive Tyrant, 6 Hive Guard, the humble ripper, and a unit of Warriors can hold up well for what they bring to bear. I was wondering what else could be fit into a list to bring up the most reliable results in any given ITC match. Any and all ideas are welcome, though I am specifically thinking pure Nids, no GSC if it can be helped. Gaunt carpet (300 plus bodies) backed by zoans and malanthrope and a unit of 6 hive guard is the most ITC eficient. Nick Nanavati says that's the best list. When I was talking to Siegler at our last RTT he said that's the best list. It's currently the one I'm running although with horms and gargs because that's models I have. I haven't lost with it yet, but neither have I played it outside of playtesting (but I have some really good team mates to help work the kinks out). I use the build your own trait with 6++ save on gribblies and -1 when you outnumber in close combat. You HAVE to have movement trays in order to not get clocked out. Keep the game close for the first 3 turns while increasingly applying board pressure. Save all your CP for charges you have to make, metabolic overdrive if needed and most importantly the shoot 2x with hive guard. Kill 1 unit per turn and win on objectives. It really works but it's physically exhausting to play. There's probably a decent 3 exocrine, unit of hiveguard with 9 ridgerunners list but you don't want to do GSC. I've also played 6 hive guard, 3 exos (2 in t-cytes to waterfall them) and a rock saw bomb to decent effect, but it has some really bad matchups. It's really good against possessed bomb because you can kill the rest of the army and then start pulling out characters which dismantles the list. It simply dies to the Brovathan list though. I think those matchups get better with 20x3 acos in PA as TH. I havent ran the math but im not sure saws are the way to go. RCs with +2 to wound should be good enough. The alternative is the instant kills cutters seem very good. Specially since the mass of the IH list is 2wound stuff and you should be able to 50% kill cents. -1 to hit sort of sucks. Alternatively the rolling mortals also doesnt seem terrible against the invuln armies people are bringing.
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 17, 2020 12:26:04 GMT
Gaunt carpet (300 plus bodies) backed by zoans and malanthrope and a unit of 6 hive guard is the most ITC eficient. Nick Nanavati says that's the best list. When I was talking to Siegler at our last RTT he said that's the best list. It's currently the one I'm running although with horms and gargs because that's models I have. I haven't lost with it yet, but neither have I played it outside of playtesting (but I have some really good team mates to help work the kinks out). I use the build your own trait with 6++ save on gribblies and -1 when you outnumber in close combat. You HAVE to have movement trays in order to not get clocked out. Keep the game close for the first 3 turns while increasingly applying board pressure. Save all your CP for charges you have to make, metabolic overdrive if needed and most importantly the shoot 2x with hive guard. Kill 1 unit per turn and win on objectives. It really works but it's physically exhausting to play. There's probably a decent 3 exocrine, unit of hiveguard with 9 ridgerunners list but you don't want to do GSC. I've also played 6 hive guard, 3 exos (2 in t-cytes to waterfall them) and a rock saw bomb to decent effect, but it has some really bad matchups. It's really good against possessed bomb because you can kill the rest of the army and then start pulling out characters which dismantles the list. It simply dies to the Brovathan list though. Wow 300+ is insane. Ever get called up for slow play or do you manage it pretty well with the movement trays? I won't play it without a clock. I bring my own for this list to make sure there is one everytime I play. My opponents clock out before I do. Movement trays, practice, and don't do things that aren't necessary. You can force your opponent to waste clock by charging into units that they don't want to fight with but only getting a few of your own models in there. You then consolidate and they HAVE to fight with every model that can. You cannot skip a CC phase anymore.
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Post by xsquidz on Feb 17, 2020 13:04:52 GMT
Gaunt carpet (300 plus bodies) backed by zoans and malanthrope and a unit of 6 hive guard is the most ITC eficient. Nick Nanavati says that's the best list. When I was talking to Siegler at our last RTT he said that's the best list. It's currently the one I'm running although with horms and gargs because that's models I have. I haven't lost with it yet, but neither have I played it outside of playtesting (but I have some really good team mates to help work the kinks out). I use the build your own trait with 6++ save on gribblies and -1 when you outnumber in close combat. You HAVE to have movement trays in order to not get clocked out. Keep the game close for the first 3 turns while increasingly applying board pressure. Save all your CP for charges you have to make, metabolic overdrive if needed and most importantly the shoot 2x with hive guard. Kill 1 unit per turn and win on objectives. It really works but it's physically exhausting to play. There's probably a decent 3 exocrine, unit of hiveguard with 9 ridgerunners list but you don't want to do GSC. I've also played 6 hive guard, 3 exos (2 in t-cytes to waterfall them) and a rock saw bomb to decent effect, but it has some really bad matchups. It's really good against possessed bomb because you can kill the rest of the army and then start pulling out characters which dismantles the list. It simply dies to the Brovathan list though. I think those matchups get better with 20x3 acos in PA as TH. I havent ran the math but im not sure saws are the way to go. RCs with +2 to wound should be good enough. The alternative is the instant kills cutters seem very good. Specially since the mass of the IH list is 2wound stuff and you should be able to 50% kill cents. -1 to hit sort of sucks. Alternatively the rolling mortals also doesnt seem terrible against the invuln armies people are bringing. Without saws, knights become an issue. You can only get +2 to wound vs infantry (the new TH power is against infantry only), so +1 to wound anything (vigilus) and +2 vs infantry, but you are already S5 with TH so in most cases +1 to wound you are already wounding on 2+.
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Post by mule on Feb 17, 2020 19:31:18 GMT
I think those matchups get better with 20x3 acos in PA as TH. I havent ran the math but im not sure saws are the way to go. RCs with +2 to wound should be good enough. The alternative is the instant kills cutters seem very good. Specially since the mass of the IH list is 2wound stuff and you should be able to 50% kill cents. -1 to hit sort of sucks. Alternatively the rolling mortals also doesnt seem terrible against the invuln armies people are bringing. Without saws, knights become an issue. You can only get +2 to wound vs infantry (the new TH power is against infantry only), so +1 to wound anything (vigilus) and +2 vs infantry, but you are already S5 with TH so in most cases +1 to wound you are already wounding on 2+. They're actually not that big of an issue one unit with might from beyond and +1 to wound with reroll 1's to hit and wound from a primus means 18 unsaveable wounds because you're rending on a 5 or a 6. -1 on a 3+ means they're saving the other 9 wounds at a .5 meaning athats another 4.5 wounds which is 22.5 unsaved wounds, add another 3 from the knives means from one 150 point unit you're dealing 25.5 wounds. And you've got 2 more full units that are still S5 2 attacks rending on 6's this isn't including the waterfalled exo's that you'll be dropping or the hiveguard you'll be double shooting. 50% of the games you play is going to be marines, and a unit of twisted helix with might from beyond with +2 to wound aco's kills a full unit of cents through transhuman. Additionally, I also said possibly taking heavy rock cutters would completely solve that issue since they'd be S10+ -1 to hit but +1 to wound with a -4 and d3 wounds, should easily clear a knight.
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 18, 2020 4:14:57 GMT
Then you fail the charge, fail Hypno, or die to overwatch, cuz TH has this charging problem that needs to be dealt with.
*shrug*
It does work, it just has a fair few points of failure.
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Post by No One on Feb 18, 2020 5:09:59 GMT
Or you whiff a bit, it fights at full, falls back and picks up your acolytes. Saws really help secure those kills on tough targets: rending claws definitely can, but there's nothing like hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, wounding on 2s, rerolling 1s, ignoring saves if you really want to make sure you kill something.
The -1 to hit on cutters, as well as being more expensive and inconsistent damage...eh. You need to roll higher as well: I think it's better into relevant infantry (it can definitely kill in one hit, which is nice, but odds from multiple attacks vs saws is not maths I feel like doing). Drill is just worse: the MW require an attack to go through to proc, so the fact that they ignore saves doesn't matter at all. It works out to between 2-3 damage, except it only applies once per model, thus making it worse than saws, for more.
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Post by mule on Feb 18, 2020 5:15:27 GMT
Then you fail the charge, fail Hypno, or die to overwatch, cuz TH has this charging problem that needs to be dealt with. *shrug* It does work, it just has a fair few points of failure. Hypno is being cast at a +2 because of crouchling and the +1 to cast. Reroll charge + 1 from clam on 3 units atleast one of them is going to get in The only thing in this game that doesn't have points of failure is shooting, so if thats the mentality you shouldn't play nids or gsc you should play a shooty only army.
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Post by No One on Feb 18, 2020 7:47:09 GMT
Or you run FAE, PA a saw squad, and now all 3 of your squads are probably going to get in: iconward relic banner means you're S5, which is way more relevant than S6. Like, yes everything combat has points of failure. Mitigate them as much as possible. TH stock...doesn't really do that, especially compared to FAE with a few saws.
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Post by mule on Feb 19, 2020 15:11:14 GMT
Or you run FAE, PA a saw squad, and now all 3 of your squads are probably going to get in: iconward relic banner means you're S5, which is way more relevant than S6. Like, yes everything combat has points of failure. Mitigate them as much as possible. TH stock...doesn't really do that, especially compared to FAE with a few saws. S6 is more relevant because you want S6 against cents. You will lose against every ravenguard and IF player if you're not running a way to get S6. 4AE isn't good, that's already been proven via players trying it out. PA didn't give 4AE anything useful. Footslogging a (please do not swear) tonne of acolytes and being able to move advance and charge with 2 of them is the way to go while you deepstrike the buff characters and take a deepstruck shooty platform like exo's and neo's.
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Post by xsquidz on Feb 19, 2020 15:37:20 GMT
Or you run FAE, PA a saw squad, and now all 3 of your squads are probably going to get in: iconward relic banner means you're S5, which is way more relevant than S6. Like, yes everything combat has points of failure. Mitigate them as much as possible. TH stock...doesn't really do that, especially compared to FAE with a few saws. S6 is more relevant because you want S6 against cents. You will lose against every ravenguard and IF player if you're not running a way to get S6. 4AE isn't good, that's already been proven via players trying it out. PA didn't give 4AE anything useful. Footslogging a (please do not swear) tonne of acolytes and being able to move advance and charge with 2 of them is the way to go while you deepstrike the buff characters and take a deepstruck shooty platform like exo's and neo's. S6 is easy, the banner gives +1, the might from beyond is another +1.
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Post by No One on Feb 19, 2020 15:50:53 GMT
S6 is more relevant because you want S6 against cents. You will lose against every ravenguard and IF player if you're not running a way to get S6. Banner and might. Or just go S5 with saws, and/or +1 to wound with draw blood, probably get transhumaned anyway. It's really not a must: I haven't lost to RG with cents yet (sometimes really close and I haven't played a mass cent list piloted by a good player yet, so don't take this as the answer or anything , but I haven't), and I don't think I've ever reached S6. I haven't always killed the cents because they weren't the focus of the list (e.g. aggressors instead, which are basically just slightly worse cents), but I've won on VP. And I'm still doing fine here with FAE. Making 7" charges to not really want to change anytime soon...
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