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Post by wormlord666 on Jan 20, 2020 10:17:21 GMT
I think GW wants games to be quicker. ”All” new rules are about mitigating output. Like more AP, more dammage, more shots/attacks, re-roll hits and so on. Hardly anything goes in to more saves or better armour, - to hit or things like that.
The marines got this big and many games with them are determind by the roll off for going first.
I believe that they will have to try to correct this or people will react. I mean how fun is it to paint your army, travel to an event just to deploy, roll some saves, remove your army and then wait 2,5 houts to do the same thing again...
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Post by naviedzony on Jan 20, 2020 10:47:21 GMT
It's like when you could deepstrike in the first turn. The roll-off determining who uses his deepstrike bomb first was the roll determining who wins the game. Except now only marines can deepstrike on the first turn end they don't even have to do so to be that effective.  |
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 20, 2020 11:09:10 GMT
I'm pretty sure people do that in every event - take a bad list to a competition and any army would do that to you, even Nids. So that's not something GW can fix.
For the record, Nids 3 or 4 of our main BoB viable updates are all about increased durability, not about getting more damage. So no, not all new rules is about killing stuff faster. It's just the army concept - Marines are an elite army that's got the output to take on a bigger enemy force, and hurt for every model/unit lost. More than half of the offenders don't have invuls. But due to army design of being an elite army that trades well, they need to have some measure of tankiness and they need to be somewhat points efficient. That's just my perspective on the topic.
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Post by No One on Jan 20, 2020 12:20:06 GMT
I think GW wants games to be quicker. ”All” new rules are about mitigating output. Like more AP, more dammage, more shots/attacks, re-roll hits and so on. Hardly anything goes in to more saves or better armour, - to hit or things like that. I mean... -Ironestone (nerfed) -Feirros (nerfed) -Self sacrifice (nerfed) -Char protection strats -Fists save bonuses (WLT and 2 strats, albeit all conditional and not really stackable) -Transhuman (and basically transhuman WLTs) -RG strat for -1 to hit(?) -IH strat for 6+++/+1 FNP -RG/Sallie/IH survivability traits, and stealthy -Apothecary for 6+++ Marines just got a load of new rules: you just get to experience the offensive ones more, because killing your opponent before they get to do anything is a really effective way of mitigating damage. And it's not like it's just marines. We got: -Ignore -1/-2 -+2 cover -5++ -Strat for -1 dam -Strat for -1 strength And less useful stuff, but still damage mitigation: -Strat for -1 to hit -Trait for 6++, 6+++, -1 to hit and heal wounds Part of the problem is that the starting point was where firepower could take out (at least) one key target in a turn: survivability buffs help, but then factions get offensive buffs which sort of even out, except the survivability buffs are often not as good/situational or on less useful units, and so the increase in output often outweighs the survivability buffs on net. And it's back to really effective murder without other play state ways of avoiding damage entirely (i.e. stuff like terrain, combat or DS). |
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Post by wormlord666 on Jan 20, 2020 13:52:38 GMT
I suppose you are right, Kaze and No One. The power of the offensive marine rules put on top of each other is so big that its them that I notice, the survivabilitybonus never becomes an issue.
Personally I like it when different armies have some strong sides and some weak sides. Like Nids are strong in melee and mildrange but weak in longrange and armour, Knights strong in shooting and surviving put weak in boardpresence etc. But marines have the ability to be best in everything: Want the best shooting? Take IH/IF. Want a fast melee army? Take White scars? Want the best deployment shananigans deepstrike list? Take ravenguard.
I like playing fightphase based lists and I like manipulating movement and deployment so GSC/Nids have been great. Now marines would do it better... and still shoot good... and survive good...
I must admit I have started to look at my sons abandoned Blood angels and even reading the first part of BoB...
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 20, 2020 17:22:16 GMT
I suppose you are right, Kaze and No One. The power of the offensive marine rules put on top of each other is so big that its them that I notice, the survivabilitybonus never becomes an issue. Personally I like it when different armies have some strong sides and some weak sides. Like Nids are strong in melee and mildrange but weak in longrange and armour, Knights strong in shooting and surviving put weak in boardpresence etc. But marines have the ability to be best in everything: Want the best shooting? Take IH/IF. Want a fast melee army? Take White scars? Want the best deployment shananigans deepstrike list? Take ravenguard. I like playing fightphase based lists and I like manipulating movement and deployment so GSC/Nids have been great. Now marines would do it better... and still shoot good... and survive good... I must admit I have started to look at my sons abandoned Blood angels and even reading the first part of BoB... SM cant be the best at everything. They are the King of Jack of All Trades - there's an SM that specializes in whatever it is you want to do in the game, that's the nature of Imperium's finest I would say. That doesnt mean each army does it all well, and it comes down to being able to recognize what each army's strength and capabilities are, and what their weaknesses are. For example, 80% of the SM lists you fight against doesnt actually deal with the movement and deployment/combat shenanigans that well, and get by purely by people not being able to DS charge them (and being able to swing back and hit painfully against our army, specifically). If a unit of Posessed or a unit of Grotesques get into melee range of a standard shooting marine army, that army is literally ggwpff20. The only one that does it well is White Scars, and mostly because they got Run and Charge. They also get Outflank and a Charge assist from spells or Chaplain and Strategem. But in the entire marine codex there's really only 2 options that make use of this movement flexibility really well - Aggressors and Centurions, the rest of the army only shoots OK-ish and doesnt just wipe you out. It's not like you'll likely see Bikes since they arent that great, maybe you'll see Invictor play because they're cheap, maybe something in those Phobos Reivers and Impulsors or whatever the new units are called, though I doubt it since there is a distinct lack of strong melee or close range shooting from any of those options. They're just as scared of being out in the open as we are, since they're only tankier vs Bolters. A COMMON thread through all marine builds though is that they've got a powerful 1-2 Alphastrike punch, but only average staying power. Their power comes more from how effective/efficient their trades can be, just like GSC (GSC's got the same weaknesses, just much more pronounced as a glass cannon). Armies that have the ability to take the punch, or delay/blunt the 1-2 punch, will usually punch back at them, and tear through a significant amount of the SM army. It's armies that dont have the ability to absorb this alphastrike that just break down when faced with an SM army that will guarantee their alphastrike safety. Eventually, the game is going to move to T7+ Chassises, preferably those with Invuls, and the game will rotate to having strong mortal wound generators to deal with that, putting Eldar (Eldar is always at the top no matter what) and Nids and GK/TSons back at the top bracket. With the current set of buffs and good use of a Male/Mala and mid-field strategy, Nids will definitely come up from bottom faction to somewhere just short of top tier, even in the Marine meta. In fact, since our weapons are SO. GOOD. AGAINST NON-INVUL, is precisely why with the ability to weather the 1-2 punch, we will have a good chance of taking on SM and coming out on top. Compare to Knights, who can do Shooting and Combat extremely well, while ignoring core rules of the game, literally only losing on ObSec (not Map Presence, only Ob Sec) but doesnt care because they can stomp any obsec unit to death. Knights arent as meta strong anymore because everyone techs to be able to handle Knights, and each Knight lost is like 1/4 of your army which is too huge to lose in one sitting. |
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Post by conquest on Jan 20, 2020 17:29:00 GMT
IRON HANDS are slappy broken good because they have ONE army wide rule that every unit can hugely benefit from and I forgot what its called, but they ignore penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. GW needs to rework the ability or just get rid of it. Iron Hands could still be very well competitive, The IH player would just have less counterplay against some lists.
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Post by purestrain on Jan 21, 2020 5:12:29 GMT
IRON HANDS are slappy broken good because they have ONE army wide rule that every unit can hugely benefit from and I forgot what its called, but they ignore penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. GW needs to rework the ability or just get rid of it. Iron Hands could still be very well competitive, The IH player would just have less counterplay against some lists. So bladed cog with no invuln? I'm not sure why this is broken strong as we have access to such things and I never hear anyone say its strong, it was actually debated until it got proven its good. Pretty sure it's the extra ap and amazingly tough Walker stuff that made them hard and hated |
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Post by killercroc on Jan 21, 2020 5:54:34 GMT
IRON HANDS are slappy broken good because they have ONE army wide rule that every unit can hugely benefit from and I forgot what its called, but they ignore penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. GW needs to rework the ability or just get rid of it. Iron Hands could still be very well competitive, The IH player would just have less counterplay against some lists. So bladed cog with no invuln? I'm not sure why this is broken strong as we have access to such things and I never hear anyone say its strong, it was actually debated until it got proven its good. Pretty sure it's the extra ap and amazingly tough Walker stuff that made them hard and hated Nobody says it's strong because all we have is Heavy stubber, Seismic cannon and Mining laser. Meanwhile marines have *unfurls scroll of heavy weapons* ...... you get the point. We have the same ability (partially we only really get it on a single troop choice with 3 mediocre weapons) and they get it army wide; boots, treads and fliers. You're comparing an apple seed to an orchard there. |
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Post by conquest on Jan 21, 2020 8:46:31 GMT
IRON HANDS are slappy broken good because they have ONE army wide rule that every unit can hugely benefit from and I forgot what its called, but they ignore penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. GW needs to rework the ability or just get rid of it. Iron Hands could still be very well competitive, The IH player would just have less counterplay against some lists. So bladed cog with no invuln? I'm not sure why this is broken strong as we have access to such things and I never hear anyone say its strong, it was actually debated until it got proven its good. Pretty sure it's the extra ap and amazingly tough Walker stuff that made them hard and hated Yeah, @ me when any of our vehicles can.... killercroc just said it, but I feel like you didnt grasp what I said. Imagine if no matter what your opponent did to you in his turn, all you would have to do is walk X unit towards/away from any situation you come across. That is how much brain power you need to play IH right now. You just have to know when to walk away from something or get in range to shoot it. Levi dread is just the perfect option for IH goodies because of its stoopid FW statline. Extra AP is a joke and the only reason IH need it is for eldar flyer spam list or other IH lists. |
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Post by arapaima on Jan 21, 2020 9:04:27 GMT
I doubt much gonna change in this edition. All GW going to do imo is to ensure other faction cannot reach a similar level. Xenos/chaos going there would result in accusation of power creep. For marines, majority of 40k player plays them. Their power level will keep a big percentage of the playerbase buying minis happy and GW not gonna do a thing to upset that IMHO.
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Post by No One on Jan 21, 2020 10:27:53 GMT
I doubt much gonna change in this edition. All GW going to do imo is to ensure other faction cannot reach a similar level. Xenos/chaos going there would result in accusation of power creep. For marines, majority of 40k player plays them. Their power level will keep a big percentage of the playerbase buying minis happy and GW not gonna do a thing to upset that IMHO. The majority opinion (at least in the competitive scene, though I've heard similar from the more casual crowd) is that marines are OP in a way that's bad for the game and need a nerf: not necessarily a large one depending on who you talk to, but this includes people who play marines. Like, their power level isn't keeping anyone happy: the top players are moving to marines, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're happy with that, just that they feel it's an inevitability if you want to compete, and the army's enjoyable enough for them to play. Like, I'm not sure I've heard a single person say that marines are fine without further buffs to other armies. |
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Jan 21, 2020 13:04:19 GMT
Super casual, it's probably not a major issue. For casually competitive (seeking to play somewhat competitively but to have fun), it's an issue. One of my opponents ran an executioner (primaries tank) and said that he won't run it in friendly games as it's too good. GWs community site also posted this from the LVO organizer/commentator: It will be interesting to see which Chapter will be leading the Space Marines pack, and which armies will be built to counter the Space Marine power house. I believe White Scars and Iron Hands will be dominating the top tables, but it will also be very exciting to see how the players react to the first 1,000-person tournament in this hobby. www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/20/dont-miss-the-las-vegas-opengw-homepage-post-4/To me, that shows that the marine power creep is a huge problem. |
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Post by dandc on Jan 21, 2020 13:17:19 GMT
At one stage the accepted wisdom was that Marines are the first stage in the new codex releases, so represent an unprecedented power jump in the edition. As other factions receive new codexes they will join Marines at this new power level, just like the move from index to codex. Is this no longer the thinking?
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Post by nintura on Jan 21, 2020 14:43:41 GMT
At one stage the accepted wisdom was that Marines are the first stage in the new codex releases, so represent an unprecedented power jump in the edition. As other factions receive new codexes they will join Marines at this new power level, just like the move from index to codex. Is this no longer the thinking? Yes. And we've heard this (please do not swear) from GW before. Remember 5th to 6th?
We are taking the power level down in the codexes, and as such are taking CSM down to barebones.
VERY next codex was space marines and they get some of the rules removed from CSM and some boosts.
They do it all the time. Watch, we'll sit here and we'll grumble but ultimately be silent because we'll believe them and wait for the new dexes and I guarantee you one of the first 9.0 dexes will be marines again.
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