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Post by nintura on Dec 27, 2019 13:50:03 GMT
I used to think like your guys until I had like 5 games with Blood of Baal, but then I realised that a small detachment with master artisan and reroll one psychic test is quite good. Also some of our stuff is too strong to be nativ abilities, while other should be instead of strat, that I agree. Maleceptor is too strong for 0 cp guys, come on... I think we can compete with anything non marine, so I d say that is a pretty good mark. No one wants more marine level stuff, that would just end the game. And perhaps they will launch a balance faq to nerf marines soon, which will put us in a good place. Honestly our stuff is str9nger than it looks. Exocrine kronos is good yes but easy to kill for some armies. But Kronos warriors with prime and doubles shoot strat are really good too and I read no one here giving any feedback one them. 3*9 warriors will ensure maximum use of the kronos ou power for both hordes clearing and antitank (venom canons). You guys are waaaay too negative imho. Unless you really do face IH and Ravenguard all the time (I really can win at all against decent player with these 2 types of marine scums). In that case yes we are underpowered, and totally screwed. IMO we can deal with other marines though. Not everybody wants to play the same damned list. I dont want to be running the same strategies like 3x exocrines in t-cytes, etc etc etc. And I sure as hell don't want to be shoe horned into playing the same 1 or 2 hive fleets, and I sure as (please do not swear) don't want to be mixing hive fleets in my list. |
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Post by mattblowers on Dec 27, 2019 13:55:33 GMT
Honestly our stuff is str9nger than it looks. Exocrine kronos is good yes but easy to kill for some armies. But Kronos warriors with prime and doubles shoot strat are really good too and I read no one here giving any feedback one them. 3*9 warriors will ensure maximum use of the kronos ou power for both hordes clearing and antitank (venom canons). I can't give feedback on something I haven't played. But since we are on that topic I'll just point out that stat line vs. stat line I think warriors get punked hard by primaris intercessors the whole way across the board. We have one extra wound but worse shooting (no reroll madness) and a worse armor save. Genestealers can struggle with primaris marines in combat and warriors just don't have the volume of attacks to swing the fight. Like I said, there might be a warrior list to be had, but right now I just don't see it, at least not in my meta. I don't know what they do against Tau or Marines and that is 80%+ of the competitive field in Florida at the moment. The last GT I went to I was the only Tyranid player, there was one Drukhari, 2 necrons, 3-4 chaos and the rest were Space Marine flavor of choice. So, if a list isn't going to have a chance against marines, I don't see a reason to take it. I hope I'm not coming across as negative. I certainly don't feel negative. Unfortunately I think 80% of units are still left on the cutting room floor even after this update and CA; but that's not me being negative, it's me trying to have a winning record at a competitive event (not even trying to win it). So far my exocrine waterfall list is holding it's own against marines. I just need to keep tweaking the list. Not everybody wants to play the same damned list. I dont want to be running the same strategies like 3x exocrines in t-cytes, etc etc etc. And I sure as hell don't want to be shoe horned into playing the same 1 or 2 hive fleets, and I sure as (please do not swear) don't want to be mixing hive fleets in my list. I hear you and I feel your pain. However, you have to be realistic. If you want to compete in the competitive meta there isn't a whole lot of wiggle room: you are going to have to take our best units with the best synergy. I'm not sure we've figured out what that is yet, but 3 Kronos exocrines are certainly in the running. 300+ gribblies is certainly a strong choice as well, but I probably will stop playing before I do that. |
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Post by mattblowers on Dec 27, 2019 14:29:04 GMT
You can declare an advance and never move, its a declaration with penalties. IT MATTERS NOT IF YOU DO NOT MOVE. Well, yes and no. You are conflating UNITS with MODELS. GW clarified that when you declare an advance, the entire UNIT is considered to have advanced even if some models in the unit don't move. So you can't congo line an advance to capture an objective and leave your heavy weapons stationary to keep blazing away. An exocrine is both a model and a unit. There would be no reason to ever declare an advance, roll the dice, and then not move the model. In the BRB all advance does is add the D6 to your movement characteristic. To make it seem as if movement and advancing are two completely different things with no relation is silly in my opinion. I can see where you are coming from, but it appears to be another case of trying to make GW rules live up to a standard that they do not. My group tends to play rules as the simplest interpretation. The strategem lets you act as if you didn't move in the movement phase. If you think there is an argument to be had over the idea that a single model unit can advance and not move, then be my guest. I'll continue to play it this way until GW FAQs it. 'nid players tend to be masochists. |
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 27, 2019 14:38:28 GMT
You can declare an advance and never move, its a declaration with penalties. IT MATTERS NOT IF YOU DO NOT MOVE. Well, yes and no. You are conflating UNITS with MODELS. GW clarified that when you declare an advance, the entire UNIT is considered to have advanced even if some models in the unit don't move. So you can't congo line an advance to capture an objective and leave your heavy weapons stationary to keep blazing away. An exocrine is both a model and a unit. There would be no reason to ever declare an advance, roll the dice, and then not move the model. In the BRB all advance does is add the D6 to your movement characteristic. To make it seem as if movement and advancing are two completely different things with no relation is silly in my opinion. I can see where you are coming from, but it appears to be another case of trying to make GW rules live up to a standard that they do not. My group tends to play rules as the simplest interpretation. The strategem lets you act as if you didn't move in the movement phase. If you think there is an argument to be had over the idea that a single model unit can advance and not move, then be my guest. I'll continue to play it this way until GW FAQs it. 'nid players tend to be masochists. The argument is our FAQ on Onslaught, actually, where Advancing and Moving are counted clearly as different things. You can shoot and ignore the penalty for moving as Heavy. You cannot shoot Heavy if you advanced. If you needed to move the full distance then into that extra D6" before you're counted as advanced, this specific distinction doesn't make sense nor would be necessary. But yes, run it by the TOs next run down, let me know what they say, esp if it's at LVO or some other big ticket name. It may not affect my strategy per se, but it gives me a position to get my local TOs to broaden their considerations. |
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Post by mattblowers on Dec 27, 2019 15:00:03 GMT
The argument is our FAQ on Onslaught, actually, where Advancing and Moving are counted clearly as different things. You can shoot and ignore the penalty for moving as Heavy. You cannot shoot Heavy if you advanced. If you needed to move the full distance then into that extra D6" before you're counted as advanced, this specific distinction doesn't make sense nor would be necessary. But yes, run it by the TOs next run down, let me know what they say, esp if it's at LVO or some other big ticket name. It may not affect my strategy per se, but it gives me a position to get my local TOs to broaden their considerations. I hear you. I was totally on the side of not being able to advance and shoot heavy weapons. This is a totally different argument. That was an argument about weapon types. This is an argument about what constitutes movement. Hopefully we get an FAQ soon. |
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Post by bigpig on Dec 27, 2019 15:12:59 GMT
Well, yes and no. You are conflating UNITS with MODELS. GW clarified that when you declare an advance, the entire UNIT is considered to have advanced even if some models in the unit don't move. So you can't congo line an advance to capture an objective and leave your heavy weapons stationary to keep blazing away. An exocrine is both a model and a unit. There would be no reason to ever declare an advance, roll the dice, and then not move the model. In the BRB all advance does is add the D6 to your movement characteristic. To make it seem as if movement and advancing are two completely different things with no relation is silly in my opinion. I can see where you are coming from, but it appears to be another case of trying to make GW rules live up to a standard that they do not. My group tends to play rules as the simplest interpretation. The strategem lets you act as if you didn't move in the movement phase. If you think there is an argument to be had over the idea that a single model unit can advance and not move, then be my guest. I'll continue to play it this way until GW FAQs it. 'nid players tend to be masochists. The argument is our FAQ on Onslaught, actually, where Advancing and Moving are counted clearly as different things. You can shoot and ignore the penalty for moving as Heavy. You cannot shoot Heavy if you advanced. If you needed to move the full distance then into that extra D6" before you're counted as advanced, this specific distinction doesn't make sense nor would be necessary. But yes, run it by the TOs next run down, let me know what they say, esp if it's at LVO or some other big ticket name. It may not affect my strategy per se, but it gives me a position to get my local TOs to broaden their considerations. I actually think Matt's POV has some play on this one. Onslaught says the unit can fire without suffering the penalties "to its hit rolls." Thats the book language and the FAQ reinforced that. The BoB strat says the Exocrine counts and having not moved. Big difference and I think it overwrites Advance, which is a form of movement in the movement phase. Basically it is arguable either way and an FAQ needs to be done to clarify... but I do not think it is an open and shut based on the Onslaught FAQ. Fingers crossed  |
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Post by harryharuspex on Dec 27, 2019 16:55:18 GMT
Hey Matt, any attempts with Haruspexes? I'm about to bring 2, each with Murderous Size, today to a friendly game. At 150 points, I think the survivability is about where it should be, it's just always felt like hitting on 4s makes them such (please do not swear). With the strat, as well as an upgraded Maw to actually chomp through things like Primaris more effectively, I'm hoping they'll do okay.
I've also got a pair of Mawlocs in my list. Whether I get to use them as whack-a-moles or not, I think the strat they got makes them way more reliable, even if they remain putrid in melee. Again, it's a friendly game so none of this is a true test but I think we'd all agree here that neither Mawlocs nor Haruspexes make it to the big leagues with the BoB buffs.
Additionally, I agree with all the points in your main post. BoB isn't a lifesaver but it's got a couple QoL aspects to it. That being said, I really don't want to spend $40 on a book that improves us so marginally...
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Post by purestrain on Dec 27, 2019 16:57:38 GMT
Hey Matt, any attempts with Haruspexes? I'm about to bring 2, each with Murderous Size, today to a friendly game. At 150 points, I think the survivability is about where it should be, it's just always felt like hitting on 4s makes them such (please do not swear). With the strat, as well as an upgraded Maw to actually chomp through things like Primaris more effectively, I'm hoping they'll do okay. I've also got a pair of Mawlocs in my list. Whether I get to use them as whack-a-moles or not, I think the strat they got makes them way more reliable, even if they remain putrid in melee. Again, it's a friendly game so none of this is a true test but I think we'd all agree here that neither Mawlocs nor Haruspexes make it to the big leagues with the BoB buffs. Additionally, I agree with all the points in your main post. BoB isn't a lifesaver but it's got a couple QoL aspects to it. That being said, I really don't want to spend $40 on a book that improves us so marginally... Doing a build a bug for the +1 hit on the charge? or kraken? |
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Post by calbanite on Dec 27, 2019 17:17:17 GMT
From the 3 games I played vs Ultramarines (1500 pts) I found:
Exocrines are boss. I've just been running a single one that starts behind cover and moves out and double taps. Pathogenic Slime is a heavy investment but it slaps Aggressors.
Genestealers are scary looking but against Primaris they HAVE to wipe the squad or else they just die on the slap back.
Kronos power like we all know is busted good.
Hierodule is swingy AF and still isn't worth it over more Fexes but damn do I love big bugs
If allowed by your group, a single Gorgon Broodlord in an Aux Detachment providing the AP buff bubble is sneaky good. A neuro isn't fast enough to keep up.
I ran a single game with a Leviathan warrior blob and ehhhhhh. I love warriors but like it's been said, Primaris just put them down too easy. I had a Gorgon Broodlord buffing their swords to AP3 and had Malanthrope cover too. Could have possibly run a Malaceptor too but don't own the model. They are right choppy in melee with 4 power sword swings tho.
I need to try Behemoth or Kraken Shrikes.
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Post by harryharuspex on Dec 27, 2019 17:22:03 GMT
Hey Matt, any attempts with Haruspexes? I'm about to bring 2, each with Murderous Size, today to a friendly game. At 150 points, I think the survivability is about where it should be, it's just always felt like hitting on 4s makes them such (please do not swear). With the strat, as well as an upgraded Maw to actually chomp through things like Primaris more effectively, I'm hoping they'll do okay. I've also got a pair of Mawlocs in my list. Whether I get to use them as whack-a-moles or not, I think the strat they got makes them way more reliable, even if they remain putrid in melee. Again, it's a friendly game so none of this is a true test but I think we'd all agree here that neither Mawlocs nor Haruspexes make it to the big leagues with the BoB buffs. Additionally, I agree with all the points in your main post. BoB isn't a lifesaver but it's got a couple QoL aspects to it. That being said, I really don't want to spend $40 on a book that improves us so marginally... Doing a build a bug for the +1 hit on the charge? or kraken? I'm going build-a-bug with +1 to hit and the regain a wound trait. Probably Kraken is better but I just felt like being unscientific and throwing all the new stuff together to see how it plays. |
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Post by mattblowers on Dec 27, 2019 17:30:36 GMT
Hey Matt, any attempts with Haruspexes? I'm about to bring 2, each with Murderous Size, today to a friendly game. At 150 points, I think the survivability is about where it should be, it's just always felt like hitting on 4s makes them such (please do not swear). With the strat, as well as an upgraded Maw to actually chomp through things like Primaris more effectively, I'm hoping they'll do okay. No. I have my third one on my painting station currently (funny since I only ever played 2 once). I was so disappointed with the toxicrenes (3x) and I think the haruspex is objectively worse. Are you giving them the 5++? That and healing might help. Prey site, heal 1 per turn (or heal when wounding), a 5++ counting as double wounds, and getting them stuck in might actually do some work. I want Kraken toxicrenes and horriblespexen but they demand prey sight to function. |
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Post by harryharuspex on Dec 27, 2019 17:48:58 GMT
Hey Matt, any attempts with Haruspexes? I'm about to bring 2, each with Murderous Size, today to a friendly game. At 150 points, I think the survivability is about where it should be, it's just always felt like hitting on 4s makes them such (please do not swear). With the strat, as well as an upgraded Maw to actually chomp through things like Primaris more effectively, I'm hoping they'll do okay. No. I have my third one on my painting station currently (funny since I only ever played 2 once). I was so disappointed with the toxicrenes (3x) and I think the haruspex is objectively worse. Are you giving them the 5++? That and healing might help. Prey site, heal 1 per turn (or heal when wounding), a 5++ counting as double wounds, and getting them stuck in might actually do some work. I want Kraken toxicrenes and horriblespexen but they demand prey sight to function. Agreed on Prey Sight and the heal-a-wound trait -- I'm focusing on buffing their offense in this list though so I'm going with Murderous Size on the Maws. They'll probably still get messed up before getting into combat but I've always been more disappointed in their killyness than their tankyness (though both are lacking). With Murderous Size and re-rolling failed hits, I think that's something. I'd maybe even throw the re-roll wounds strat on one if it seemed pertinent. I wish build-a-bug didn't lock you out of our actually-pretty-good new psychic powers... |
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Post by purestrain on Dec 27, 2019 18:26:03 GMT
You can declare an advance and never move, its a declaration with penalties. IT MATTERS NOT IF YOU DO NOT MOVE. Well, yes and no. You are conflating UNITS with MODELS. GW clarified that when you declare an advance, the entire UNIT is considered to have advanced even if some models in the unit don't move. So you can't congo line an advance to capture an objective and leave your heavy weapons stationary to keep blazing away. An exocrine is both a model and a unit. There would be no reason to ever declare an advance, roll the dice, and then not move the model. In the BRB all advance does is add the D6 to your movement characteristic. To make it seem as if movement and advancing are two completely different things with no relation is silly in my opinion. I can see where you are coming from, but it appears to be another case of trying to make GW rules live up to a standard that they do not. My group tends to play rules as the simplest interpretation. The strategem lets you act as if you didn't move in the movement phase. If you think there is an argument to be had over the idea that a single model unit can advance and not move, then be my guest. I'll continue to play it this way until GW FAQs it. 'nid players tend to be masochists. It doesnt matter if you think there is no reason to do such things, its within the rules that you clearly just stated. Any MODEL advances (the exocrine) the UNIT (the exocrine) Cannot fire any weapons. Assault weapons grant you the ability to fire weapons after you advance with a -1 hit penalty. THIS IS A SPECIAL RULE OF THE WEAPON, NOT THE MODEL.Our own FAQ About Jorm Charges shows that the Declaration of an event has consequences, even if nothing comes of the declaration ( You count as having charged even if you fail it and dont move)
Exocrine moves, Suffers the effect of the special rule of HEAVY weapons and has a -1 hit modifier. Use 1cp Stratagem, Counts as not having moved, is no longer effected by HEAVY weapon rule and can fire normally. Excorine moves and also declares an advance, The rule for HEAVY weapons still applies as you moved, so -1 hit. You also declared an advance, which has the penalty of not being able to fire ANY weapons. ( Remember, theres more than just assault and heavy, you arent allowed to shoot rapid fire, genade, nor pistols because you ADVANCED, not because of a weapon rule)
Assault Weapons have a special Rule that allows you fire them with a -1 hit penalty, this is a rule of the weapon, and overrides the Advance rule. Counting as having not moved Doesn't stop your declaration of advancing from incurring the penalties within. |
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Post by nintura on Dec 27, 2019 20:26:47 GMT
Hey Matt, any attempts with Haruspexes? I'm about to bring 2, each with Murderous Size, today to a friendly game. At 150 points, I think the survivability is about where it should be, it's just always felt like hitting on 4s makes them such (please do not swear). With the strat, as well as an upgraded Maw to actually chomp through things like Primaris more effectively, I'm hoping they'll do okay. I've also got a pair of Mawlocs in my list. Whether I get to use them as whack-a-moles or not, I think the strat they got makes them way more reliable, even if they remain putrid in melee. Again, it's a friendly game so none of this is a true test but I think we'd all agree here that neither Mawlocs nor Haruspexes make it to the big leagues with the BoB buffs. Additionally, I agree with all the points in your main post. BoB isn't a lifesaver but it's got a couple QoL aspects to it. That being said, I really don't want to spend $40 on a book that improves us so marginally... Well, you could do what others have done. Buy it and then refund it. |
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Post by mattblowers on Dec 27, 2019 21:08:59 GMT
Well, yes and no. You are conflating UNITS with MODELS. GW clarified that when you declare an advance, the entire UNIT is considered to have advanced even if some models in the unit don't move. So you can't congo line an advance to capture an objective and leave your heavy weapons stationary to keep blazing away. An exocrine is both a model and a unit. There would be no reason to ever declare an advance, roll the dice, and then not move the model. In the BRB all advance does is add the D6 to your movement characteristic. To make it seem as if movement and advancing are two completely different things with no relation is silly in my opinion. I can see where you are coming from, but it appears to be another case of trying to make GW rules live up to a standard that they do not. My group tends to play rules as the simplest interpretation. The strategem lets you act as if you didn't move in the movement phase. If you think there is an argument to be had over the idea that a single model unit can advance and not move, then be my guest. I'll continue to play it this way until GW FAQs it. 'nid players tend to be masochists. It doesnt matter if you think there is no reason to do such things, its within the rules that you clearly just stated. Any MODEL advances (the exocrine) the UNIT (the exocrine) Cannot fire any weapons. Assault weapons grant you the ability to fire weapons after you advance with a -1 hit penalty. THIS IS A SPECIAL RULE OF THE WEAPON, NOT THE MODEL.Our own FAQ About Jorm Charges shows that the Declaration of an event has consequences, even if nothing comes of the declaration ( You count as having charged even if you fail it and dont move)
Exocrine moves, Suffers the effect of the special rule of HEAVY weapons and has a -1 hit modifier. Use 1cp Stratagem, Counts as not having moved, is no longer effected by HEAVY weapon rule and can fire normally. Excorine moves and also declares an advance, The rule for HEAVY weapons still applies as you moved, so -1 hit. You also declared an advance, which has the penalty of not being able to fire ANY weapons. ( Remember, theres more than just assault and heavy, you arent allowed to shoot rapid fire, genade, nor pistols because you ADVANCED, not because of a weapon rule)
Assault Weapons have a special Rule that allows you fire them with a -1 hit penalty, this is a rule of the weapon, and overrides the Advance rule. Counting as having not moved Doesn't stop your declaration of advancing from incurring the penalties within. I disagree completely with your assessment for the reasons I stated which you did nothing to refute, you just stated your original opinion with more italics and CAPITAL LETTERS. I see where you are coming from, but think your opinion wrong. Weren't you the most adament supporter that onslaught allowed you to shoot heavy weapons after advancing? I'll wait for GW to sort it out 'cuz we know how the onslaught argument ended (and OOE buffing himself). So far my record is pretty good at figuring out intent, not that I expect that to make any difference with you. |
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