GSC post CA2019

[No One]

mule said:

I mean if they throw in infiltrators and stuff I don't think it'd be particularly fun doing 1x PA a turn and having to spend so much tax just to get a unit of saws or w.e into melee consistantly just seems like it wouldn't be a good tactic. Pair that with assault cents leafblowering you off the board.

Sure it could be done but are you going to win is the question.

If you know what you're doing, you can, yes. I've only lost twice against marines: once was misplays and poor mission (not helped by fliers) and the other was triple flier+double repulsor exec.

Kaz mostly outlined some of the specific issues, but in broad generalities? They've got a lot of strong anti-infantry platforms that end up in basically every list, with a lot of things you have to play around (mainly auspex and overwatch). If you can't deal with them directly, then you have to deal with them indirectly: which comes back to the issues with hostaging/touching into marines, which is that it isn't exactly safe. It's safer, but you suffer non-negligable casualties. And then they have generally solid shooting for anything that's not in combat, and generally solid combat counter charge for anything that is. There's a lot of things you've got to get right in the match up, but if you do, it's totally winnable.

Also, to add to some of the above points:

1: Infiltrators blocking certain entryways. There is a standard 1 unit of Infiltrators in any given SM list. Or should be, anyway. You have to deal with this with a PA from outside 12" range. With 20 man stacks, you can stretch the line far enough that it can charge things outside the Infil bubble.

Infiltrators are, by and large, a very effective annoyance. But, since we can actually charge them with PA, they're not something that just wins the game. Even if you only trade 1 squad with PA, and even if they've got multiple squads, you're almost certainly going to be able to get charges on other stuff next turn, because they can't be everywhere. Both of those are actually fairly big 'ifs'. So ultimately, it constrains your options, which hurts. But it doesn't prevent you doing something, and as long as you're doing something into marines, it's winnable.

2. Eliminators taking out your buff bubbles. Having adequate cover in Acolytes who are wrapped in charges, while being close enough to UL, are your only real defenses against them. Your other option which I think we can even consider super seriously is to drop 3" Kellermorph into them, because a pure Cult list has very few other options - just Kellermorphs, or Demo Bikers.

Similarly with 1, this hurts, but as long as you don't give them easy kills, or pointlessly sacrifice Characters, it's not going to kill the game. Drop your Characters when they're most effective, and 1 turn is all you need. More would be good, but if they die, it's not the end of the world.

3: SM Shock Attack Backhand Slap, which is when you go in to wrap a unit of SM and they slap you really hard with their base A and Shock Attack increased A, while in a reroll bubble. If you do damage to them, ie you kill 3/5 of them, you're fine. It's when you try to wrap a full unit without whittling them down that you feel the hurt.

This is the big one. While it's not as huge of an issue because of shock assault specifically (don't charge your hostage target if you can help it, you're either giving them extra attacks or risking killing yourself out of a hostage). But a 5 man intercessor, say, gets 12 attacks: that's 3-5 acolytes dead depending on buffs. Worth it to not die horribly to shooting? Possibly. But it adds up, and gets more awkward depending on what units did/didn't make combat. And then they've got shock assault for counter-charge, so that hostaging is more just delaying death.

4: Executioner Repulsors. What has anti-tank, anti-infantry, anti-melee, FLY, and really tanky? This unit is a little stupid in its design.

This is another other big one, but only for specific lists rather than marines in general. Because it also has -2, making it effectively unchargeable. Add on stuff like IH fliers, and...well, it's a super effective anti-skew list.

kazetanade said:

I gave up the moment I saw Sallies come into the game with FTGG Overwatch with Flamers that +1 or +2 to wound and maxed out D6 on a whim.

Fortunately, Sallies and UM are almost non-entities competitively now. The others have nasty overwatch, but you can mostly deal with it on your terms.

I am thinking on the Ridgerunners very hard - I think its a good block. I dont think it's a competitive staple. It's a cheap block of wounds that puts out damage, yes, and synergizes very well with specifically HG/Warrior + Shooty MC builds, due to overwhelming the Objectives so that although it maxes out, they cant get any more objectives off of the Nids. However, It's got BS problems and it has target problems. It requires a 36" buff target, and requires a unit to have finished shooting first, meaning it only shoots down 1 thing really well, doesnt do so well vs the next thing after that (Judging from my BC Laser days, where my effective shooting really drops after killing the first target). Of course having 9d3 lasers helps a lot more than having 10 so that helps mitigate some of the issues. I think if anyone is really interested they should give it a try because it has potential, but I wouldnt say it's a competitive staple most will be using. This one I could be VERY wrong on though.

I think it might be good enough, but I don't think it's ever going to be a competitive staple, just because it's not crazy good and you'd have to buy 9 ridgerunners.