Blood of Baal ideas

[mule]

Dec 2, 2019 21:00:16 GMT acehilator said:

Neuro casts with RR1, and you only need the new Kronos spell in the backline. Maybe Catalyst, but you can always cast that from another caster in the center of the board.

The Exo stratagem helps you with keeping one in cover during deployment, but I really don't know the magic tables you play on where having LoS to your targets from three-four gunbeasts while being within 6" of another big guy is so easy that you seem to regard it as a non-issue. I am also not keen on wasting CPs.

Half of an Assault Cents firepower is already wounding the T8 guys on sixes, and all of the firepower from Agressors, so again only helps against the HBs on the Cents.

Dont put exos on board put them in tcytes.
Dont hide any of them hide the small gribblies like a unit of genestealers. Being 6 to a Male is easy because male is huge and just part of your model needs to be within aura range. Turn the guns sideways so your tfex have a huge profile and youll be fine.

If they go first, you cannot cast catalyst your units will get ripped off the board, hence why this being a straragem is actually good.

Reducing your opponents shooting power as an alpha strike army where we know for a fact that we can't hide is good.

I don't think the answer isn't "take more of the unit you want to keep alive" if I take 3 units of genestealers instead of 2 they can target something else. Plus I cant hide a third unit of genestealers.

Just like if I take 3 tfex instead of 2 they can just shoot and clear one a lot easiee. In both situations, I have 2 tfex up for my turn but in one situation my army is protected from the entirety of their armies shooting.

[acehilator]

Dec 2, 2019 20:38:10 GMT gigasnail said:

I think the issue you're going to find is that we still dont have the output to be a credible gunline.

I think it can work for regular gamers. Prior to BoB/CA2019 I had a list idea with 3x HT + 8x Dakkafex with 11 HVC, but I feel that Dakkafexes are maybe the biggest losers in the new releases. They stayed the same, and our other AT options got better, so if anything they are now relegated to anti-horde duty. Picking up on my kind of a smaller Kronos spearhead from the other thread in the Tactics subforum, but why not go ahead and give it more fire.

Kronos Battalion

Neuro

Neuro

3x 3 Rippers

2x Exo

2x Tfex

1x Biovre

1x Tyrannocyte

6x Hive Guard

-----------------

1026

Give the 5++ to the two Tfexes, start one Exo in cover and move it out with the stratagem, bring the other in T2 and use the stratagem on it. Leaves the other half for Jorm short range stuff and/or Kraken melee contingent.

Thoughts: I am still really not sure if Tfexes are the way to go with their BS 4+. Eldar Flyers are going to be less common (but Hemlocks might make a return after the CHE nerf), but IH flyer lists are still a thing. So maybe better to spam Jorm Dakkafexes with BS 3+ to bring them down?

[acehilator]

mule: If you put two Exos in Tcytes, you are paying 150 points in taxes for the transport, which is already the same as a third Exo. Let's say you are throwing a Kraken battalion (Swarmy, flying HT with Kraken relic, the works... maybe even a Toxicrene) into your opponents face and he is not really engaging your backfield.

With the Tcytes, your firepower from the backfield is none T1, one T2, two T3
With my setup, it's three T1, three T2, three T3
= not even a contest

And if he is shooting your backfield, great, then Swarmy and friends can go to town. In that situation:

With the Tcytes, your firepower from the backfield is none T1, one T2, two T3
With my setup, it's one T1, one or none T2, none T3
= advantage to your setup, but not nearly as big as in the other case, and that's worst case scenario assuming your opponent had the first turn. If not, it's 3/1/0 with my setup, which also vastly better than your approach.

And regarding to "taking more of which you want to protect", I meant only in regards to backfield big guys.

[mule]

Dec 2, 2019 22:13:47 GMT acehilator said:

mule: If you put two Exos in Tcytes, you are paying 150 points in taxes for the transport, which is already the same as a third Exo. Let's say you are throwing a Kraken battalion (Swarmy, flying HT with Kraken relic, the works... maybe even a Toxicrene) into your opponents face and he is not really engaging your backfield.

With the Tcytes, your firepower from the backfield is none T1, one T2, two T3
With my setup, it's three T1, three T2, three T3
= not even a contest

And if he is shooting your backfield, great, then Swarmy and friends can go to town. In that situation:

With the Tcytes, your firepower from the backfield is none T1, one T2, two T3
With my setup, it's one T1, one or none T2, none T3
= advantage to your setup, but not nearly as big as in the other case, and that's worst case scenario assuming your opponent had the first turn. If not, it's 3/1/0 with my setup, which also vastly better than your approach.

And regarding to "taking more of which you want to protect", I meant only in regards to backfield big guys.

Ive done a breakdown of why youd tcyte in exos multiple times here.

Exos will crush tfc and whirlwinds which are a big reason why we're getting smashed. They pick apart our army and they dont need to spread out so they keep all their auras and then they take the map after our threats are gone because at worst they hold and kill and kill more. Where we just hold and hold more and just maybe kill. But we get behind because theyre killing important units while we maybe take out scouts.

Delaying their points scored by reducing damage and then dropping an exo in turn two to rip through the tfc or whirlwinds will keep us in the game. Thats why I believe Male and podded Exos are the way to go.

It's not only about board and cost effectiveness, its about point scoring and point denial.

[acehilator]

Ah Jesus, I always forget most of you guys are playing ITC. Yeah makes sense. Sorry for the confusion.

[gigasnail]

I think relying on podding in exocrines to deal with indirect fire units is probably not going to pan out well. Half the point of TFC is that they can fire w/o line of sight. Why would you deploy them so they can be shot?

[No One]

36" range with DS gives a fair bit of wiggle room to deploy on a flank with LoS, and TFC are vehicle so can't use magic boxes. So it'll definitely happen, but also not a sure thing.

An exo, I can definitely see. 2? Eh, not sure I like the staggering that forces (even for ITC, you've just dumped 2 kills, for optimistically 2 kills: might be more workable here than I give it credit not playing ITC, but...)

[mule]

Dec 2, 2019 22:49:26 GMT gigasnail said:

I think relying on podding in exocrines to deal with indirect fire units is probably not going to pan out well. Half the point of TFC is that they can fire w/o line of sight. Why would you deploy them so they can be shot?

Cause they cant put them inside magic boxes due to being vehicles and theyd rather hide important infantry behind LOS. There is only so much they can fit back there, generally there is no backfield los blocking cover just the L in the middle which our hiveguard should be able to hit. So either they put it in L cover and we move our hiveguard up and clear it, or they have it at their 60inch range outside of cover where you should be able to grab an angle on them.

Again worst case you blast their marines.

[gigasnail]

If you can hide a unit of hive guard, your opponent can likely hide a TFC and zone you out of firing lanes. The 9" setup is a huge bubble and it's not like this is a surprise redeploy.

You can shoot the zoning units T1 with hive guard or whatever, and drop the tcyte payload T2 (since you're not dropping them T1 anyway) but it does add another level of complexity.

[No One]

I mean, sometimes screening can only do so much: my acolytes were able to draw LoS (not that it really mattered . Out of charge+pile in range) to TFC both times I played them last tournament. Now, one time it was just a single squad able to fit, but the other it was...a lot more.

Will it always happen? Definitely not: if you've got something LoS blocking on the long side, and your DZ is on the short side, not too hard to screen that angle. But 36" is a pretty decent distance to either need to block LoS or screen: it'll happen if you're looking for it. Enough to make a main strategy around it? Eh. Target of opportunity with a good back up though? Sure.

[hivefleetkaiju]

Dec 2, 2019 15:16:51 GMT acehilator said:

Regarding Maleceptor, shame that the stratagem has no effect on the AT/multipurpose weaponry on a Repulsor (S10 and S5). But there are also really favourable matchups like Crimson Hunter Exarchs and Relic Leviathan Dreadnoughts.

Repulsor Executioner with Chapter Master + Lieutnant rerolls vs Maleceptor with active stratagem (leaving -1 to hit out of the equation for now).

Heavy Laser Destroyer: 3.5 shots, 2.34 + 0.78 = 3.1 hits, 2.07 + 0.34 = 2.41 wounds, 1.2 failed invul saves = 4.8 damage
Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon & Twin Heavy Bolter: 18 shots, 12 + 4 = 16 hits, 5.34 + 0.89 = 6.23 wounds, 3.12 failed invul saves = 3.12 damage

The anti-infantry weaponry gets effected and drops from wounding on 5s to wounding on 6s, so competent opponents will target other stuff with it (unless you are running pure Nidzilla, in which case the small arms will add another 1.5 or something).

So it takes two to kill it, and the second one can fire its anti-infantry weapons without penalty. But it will still move 24 S4 shots (21.34 hits) from the first tank to another "to wound" (3 to 4 against Gants/Rippers, 4 to 5 against GS/Zoans/Warriors), saving a couple points of damage in the process. The IH character giving out BS 2+ does not push the damage up far enough for a single Repulsor Executioner to kill the Maleceptor. -1 to hit will not push the damage down far enough so it could survive two, especially with the new wording on Chapter Masters (whoever decided that BS needs to be tarred and feathered anyways).

So you have a 160 point Distraction Carnifex who forced your opponent's targeting priorities, allowing another big bug to survive and occupying the firepower of 598 points from your opponent's army for a turn.

That's way better than I thought. Maybe not bleeding edge competitive, but for regular games even in hard local metas it should be perfectly fine.

Thx for your analysis
Will get a maleceptor

[gigasnail]

Dec 3, 2019 0:23:31 GMT No One said:

I mean, sometimes screening can only do so much: my acolytes were able to draw LoS (not that it really mattered . Out of charge+pile in range) to TFC both times I played them last tournament. Now, one time it was just a single squad able to fit, but the other it was...a lot more.

Will it always happen? Definitely not: if you've got something LoS blocking on the long side, and your DZ is on the short side, not too hard to screen that angle. But 36" is a pretty decent distance to either need to block LoS or screen: it'll happen if you're looking for it. Enough to make a main strategy around it? Eh. Target of opportunity with a good back up though? Sure.

Would anyone care that acolytes can draw LoS to anything? They aren't a (long range) shooting threat, there's no reason to deploy to block them. Are mining lasers enough of a thing? They may be, sorry I dunno anymore.

Totally agree on target of opportunity, that was the point I was trying to make.

[No One]

No, they were hiding (not from anything, just because that's what you do with TFC), there was just no angle to totally hide.

And mining lasers are neophytes.

[sasel]

am considering whether I use a few rigerunner as an addition to my mc list. 15 points less per piece does not sound bad.

[wormlord666]

Dec 2, 2019 20:11:32 GMT topaxygourouni said:

Dec 2, 2019 19:05:12 GMT wormlord666 said:

Deep strike 3d6 re rollable is possible to get. Another way is via swarmlord.

He means that consolidate comes after combat. They will not survive combat.

30 gaunt fighting some eliminators, scouts, guardsmen, nurglings, a thunderfire cannon or something like that will survive combat. Use horror, catalyst and choose the right target. Gargoyles are not for killing enemies with. They are for locking up, stoppning movement and acces to objectives.