Blood of Baal ideas

[nintura]

Im stuck at 1,000 point games right now. I dont know what I want to play first, Trygon Prime + Warriors or Lictors....  I have 3 clear resin Lictors on the way and can't wait to use them.

[acehilator]

Regarding Maleceptor, shame that the stratagem has no effect on the AT/multipurpose weaponry on a Repulsor (S10 and S5). But there are also really favourable matchups like Crimson Hunter Exarchs and Relic Leviathan Dreadnoughts.

Repulsor Executioner with Chapter Master + Lieutnant rerolls vs Maleceptor with active stratagem (leaving -1 to hit out of the equation for now).

Heavy Laser Destroyer: 3.5 shots, 2.34 + 0.78 = 3.1 hits, 2.07 + 0.34 = 2.41 wounds, 1.2 failed invul saves = 4.8 damage
Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon & Twin Heavy Bolter: 18 shots, 12 + 4 = 16 hits, 5.34 + 0.89 = 6.23 wounds, 3.12 failed invul saves = 3.12 damage

The anti-infantry weaponry gets effected and drops from wounding on 5s to wounding on 6s, so competent opponents will target other stuff with it (unless you are running pure Nidzilla, in which case the small arms will add another 1.5 or something).

So it takes two to kill it, and the second one can fire its anti-infantry weapons without penalty. But it will still move 24 S4 shots (21.34 hits) from the first tank to another "to wound" (3 to 4 against Gants/Rippers, 4 to 5 against GS/Zoans/Warriors), saving a couple points of damage in the process. The IH character giving out BS 2+ does not push the damage up far enough for a single Repulsor Executioner to kill the Maleceptor. -1 to hit will not push the damage down far enough so it could survive two, especially with the new wording on Chapter Masters (whoever decided that BS needs to be tarred and feathered anyways).

So you have a 160 point Distraction Carnifex who forced your opponent's targeting priorities, allowing another big bug to survive and occupying the firepower of 598 points from your opponent's army for a turn.

That's way better than I thought. Maybe not bleeding edge competitive, but for regular games even in hard local metas it should be perfectly fine.

[Laeketh]

Dec 2, 2019 15:16:51 GMT acehilator said:

Regarding Maleceptor, shame that the stratagem has no effect on the AT/multipurpose weaponry on a Repulsor (S10 and S5). But there are also really favourable matchups like Crimson Hunter Exarchs and Relic Leviathan Dreadnoughts.

The -1 S on S5 would bring that gun from wounding Warriors/Raveners on 3+ to 4+, and wounding hive guard on 4+ to 5+.  If you are bringing lots of multiwound infantry, it's not bad.

[acehilator]

I was talking about helping the Maleceptor itself, but otherwise, yeah.

[mule]

Dec 2, 2019 15:16:51 GMT acehilator said:

Regarding Maleceptor, shame that the stratagem has no effect on the AT/multipurpose weaponry on a Repulsor (S10 and S5). But there are also really favourable matchups like Crimson Hunter Exarchs and Relic Leviathan Dreadnoughts.

Repulsor Executioner with Chapter Master + Lieutnant rerolls vs Maleceptor with active stratagem (leaving -1 to hit out of the equation for now).

Heavy Laser Destroyer: 3.5 shots, 2.34 + 0.78 = 3.1 hits, 2.07 + 0.34 = 2.41 wounds, 1.2 failed invul saves = 4.8 damage
Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon & Twin Heavy Bolter: 18 shots, 12 + 4 = 16 hits, 5.34 + 0.89 = 6.23 wounds, 3.12 failed invul saves = 3.12 damage

The anti-infantry weaponry gets effected and drops from wounding on 5s to wounding on 6s, so competent opponents will target other stuff with it (unless you are running pure Nidzilla, in which case the small arms will add another 1.5 or something).

So it takes two to kill it, and the second one can fire its anti-infantry weapons without penalty. But it will still move 24 S4 shots (21.34 hits) from the first tank to another "to wound" (3 to 4 against Gants/Rippers, 4 to 5 against GS/Zoans/Warriors), saving a couple points of damage in the process. The IH character giving out BS 2+ does not push the damage up far enough for a single Repulsor Executioner to kill the Maleceptor. -1 to hit will not push the damage down far enough so it could survive two, especially with the new wording on Chapter Masters (whoever decided that BS needs to be tarred and feathered anyways).

So you have a 160 point Distraction Carnifex who forced your opponent's targeting priorities, allowing another big bug to survive and occupying the firepower of 598 points from your opponent's army for a turn.

That's way better than I thought. Maybe not bleeding edge competitive, but for regular games even in hard local metas it should be perfectly fine.

Run the damage on 2 tfex with rupture cannons shooting at the repulsor rerolling 1s.

And how much damage the repulsor can do to a tfex with a 5++ in the aura with a -1.

If you can hide the maleceptor, which shouldnt be too much of an issue. You can actually keep a gun line alive for a decent amount of time at the cost of 2CP a turn.

[kazetanade]

3 shots x2 x 2 = 12 shots 4+ rr1 = 7? hits, 3+ to wound = 4 saves, 1 saved = 3d6 damage, which is not enough to kill a Executioner on average damage.

The only relevant guns an Executioner has vs Mally is the Laser Destroyer.

4 Shots reroll everything, 3 hits. S10 3+ to wound, 2 wounds. 1 fail. 3-6 damage. It takes between 2 to 3 Executioners to kill it. 

[acehilator]

Trying to protect a gunline with the Maleceptor is a non-starter. Just get one additional of whatever you are trying to protect, it's better every time all the time, and you don't have to muck around with placement, and you save the CP. The old Tyrant Guard problem. Maleceptor is only useful as our new Distraction Carnifex, which means shoving it up the board.

I thought about guarding our big backline guys with the Malantrophe, but I think that's not going to work out either. I'd rather maximize on positioning than try to keep stuff in that tiny 3" bubble, and for the price of the Malantrophe you can just save up 35 points elsewhere and take an additional Exocrine. You also need one Neurotrophe anyways for the new Kronos power.

[1b2a]

Dec 2, 2019 7:32:57 GMT wormlord666 said:

So the threads of blood of Baal has become a monster (in a bad way) so I start a new one with ideas from the blood of Baal leaks.

The strat that says one psyker knows all the spells from every model, does that mean we can steal spells from opponents? Please say it does so I can warptime my stealers, guide my hiveguards, or nullzone the stormshields.


Kraken gargoyles with 2d6 consolidate, anyone? With possibilities of 3d6 pick highest and reroll charges they can even deepstraike in and charge. Can they consolidate over other models?

you can give them infinite consolidate, doesn't matter because they won't make it there

[wormlord666]

Dec 2, 2019 17:44:29 GMT 1b2a said:

Dec 2, 2019 7:32:57 GMT wormlord666 said:

So the threads of blood of Baal has become a monster (in a bad way) so I start a new one with ideas from the blood of Baal leaks.

The strat that says one psyker knows all the spells from every model, does that mean we can steal spells from opponents? Please say it does so I can warptime my stealers, guide my hiveguards, or nullzone the stormshields.


Kraken gargoyles with 2d6 consolidate, anyone? With possibilities of 3d6 pick highest and reroll charges they can even deepstraike in and charge. Can they consolidate over other models?

you can give them infinite consolidate, doesn't matter because they won't make it there

Deep strike 3d6 re rollable is possible to get. Another way is via swarmlord.

[topaxygourouni]

Dec 2, 2019 19:05:12 GMT wormlord666 said:

Dec 2, 2019 17:44:29 GMT 1b2a said:

you can give them infinite consolidate, doesn't matter because they won't make it there

Deep strike 3d6 re rollable is possible to get. Another way is via swarmlord.

He means that consolidate comes after combat. They will not survive combat.

[topaxygourouni]

Dec 2, 2019 17:09:00 GMT acehilator said:

Trying to protect a gunline with the Maleceptor is a non-starter. Just get one additional of whatever you are trying to protect, it's better every time all the time, and you don't have to muck around with placement, and you save the CP. The old Tyrant Guard problem. Maleceptor is only useful as our new Distraction Carnifex, which means shoving it up the board.

I thought about guarding our big backline guys with the Malantrophe, but I think that's not going to work out either. I'd rather maximize on positioning than try to keep stuff in that tiny 3" bubble, and for the price of the Malantrophe you can just save up 35 points elsewhere and take an additional Exocrine. You also need one Neurotrophe anyways for the new Kronos power.

Kinda disagree. A maleceptor also gives 2 casts with +1 to the roll and our new spells are dope. It also has extra synapse, and with 4++ on it, 4++ on the tyrants and 5++ from the physiologies we can have a pretty tough and mainstay nidzilla base, especially if we use multiple T8 monsters.

Imagine a jorm gunline with exocrines, t-fex plus the Malanthrope and maleceptor. We now have T8, 2+ armor, 4++/5++ everywhere, -1 to hit and -1 str (even lascannons wound on 4's, butcher cannons on 5's). You don't need to put more monsters because the ones you have are pretty un-shiftable.

[gigasnail]

I think the issue you're going to find is that we still dont have the output to be a credible gunline.

[acehilator]

topaxygourouni: There's theorycrafting and then there is theorycrafting.

Not really sure how you are placing let's say two Exos and two Tfexes with good LoS on the enemy inside the Malantrophe bubble and inside the Maleceptor bubble.

You also completly failed to adress the points I brought up in my post you quoted. To repeat, neither Malantrophe nor Maleceptor are an efficient use of points in this scenario. Save points elsewhere and bring an additional Exo or Tfex. It gives you more effective firepower and saves on CP in the Maleceptor's case (an additional Exo is even five points cheaper than the Maleceptor, which is just bonkers).

Nobody uses Lascannons anymore, and the Leviathan's guns already wound our T8 gunbeasts on 5s without the Maleceptor strat. Regarding unshiftable, an average SM netlist will kill two of the T8 bugs a turn, and we are hard pressed to do the same. Depending on the amount of SM you are playing against, the value of -1 hit has gone down anyways with the new wording on Chapter Master rerolls (reroll hits instead of reroll failed hits).

[topaxygourouni]

Dec 2, 2019 20:40:55 GMT acehilator said:

topaxygourouni: There's theorycrafting and then there is theorycrafting.

Not really sure how you are placing let's say two Exos and two Tfexes with good LoS on the enemy inside the Malantrophe bubble and inside the Maleceptor bubble.

You also completly failed to adress the points I brought up in my post you quoted. To repeat, neither Malantrophe nor Maleceptor are an efficient use of points in this scenario. Save points elsewhere and bring an additional Exo or Tfex. It gives you more effective firepower and saves on CP in the Maleceptor's case (an additional Exo is even five points cheaper than the Maleceptor, which is just bonkers).

Nobody uses Lascannons anymore, and the Leviathan's guns already wound our T8 gunbeasts on 5s without the Maleceptor strat. Regarding unshiftable, an average SM netlist will kill two of the T8 bugs a turn, and we are hard pressed to do the same. Depending on the amount of SM you are playing against, the value of -1 hit has gone down anyways with the new wording on Chapter Master rerolls (reroll hits instead of reroll failed hits).

I agree with the -1. Maybe it's time for the Malanthrope to hit the shelf, especially while the chapter masters roam around. But we disagree on the maleceptor. Not only does he confer the -1 to str, he also casts 2 spells with +1 to the roll and gives synapse. I think it's going to be a staple in all gunline lists. As for positioning, if only they gave us a stratagem that helps the eco move and still shoot as stationary.

Imperial leviathans sure, but purge deredeos are still a thing and so are all the assault centurions and aggressors of raven guard, which I very much want to have them shoot me with str 3.

[acehilator]

Neuro casts with RR1, and you only need the new Kronos spell in the backline. Maybe Catalyst, but you can always cast that from another caster in the center of the board.

The Exo stratagem helps you with keeping one in cover during deployment, but I really don't know the magic tables you play on where having LoS to your targets from three-four gunbeasts while being within 6" of another big guy is so easy that you seem to regard it as a non-issue. I am also not keen on wasting CPs.

Half of an Assault Cents firepower is already wounding the T8 guys on sixes, and all of the firepower from Agressors, so again only helps against the HBs on the Cents.