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Post by xsquidz on Oct 17, 2019 17:57:16 GMT
They are super annoying to face, like what other army gets 5+ over-watch, 6+++, and the extra AP in heavy doctrine with no move and fire penalties PLUS double your wounds for the purpose of damage. They didn't even need a supplement, that is all more gravy, they could have just one Space marine codex and they were already good. |
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 17, 2019 18:30:08 GMT
glad to see it dialed back a little.
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Post by mattblowers on Oct 17, 2019 18:44:09 GMT
Glad to see GW react so quickly. Gonna be a lot of pissed players. I saw tons of horrifically painted IH models at the major this past weekend in what was an obvious last minute purchase. It's a way to sell a lot of models.
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Post by brianb9999 on Oct 17, 2019 19:04:56 GMT
Glad to see GW react so quickly. Gonna be a lot of pissed players. I saw tons of horrifically painted IH models at the major this past weekend in what was an obvious last minute purchase. It's a way to sell a lot of models. I don't really feel bad at all for some of these people. If people haven't learned at this point in 8th that GW is actually listening and making an honest attempt to keep the game balanced, that's their own fault. Especially at this time of year with CA only a few months away, point costs could still go up. |
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Post by gorsameth on Oct 17, 2019 19:12:05 GMT
Glad to see GW react so quickly. Gonna be a lot of pissed players. I saw tons of horrifically painted IH models at the major this past weekend in what was an obvious last minute purchase. It's a way to sell a lot of models. I don't really feel bad at all for some of these people. If people haven't learned at this point in 8th that GW is actually listening and making an honest attempt to keep the game balanced, that's their own fault. Especially at this time of year with CA only a few months away, point costs could still go up. CA will already be at the printers. World wide distribution take time. There wont be marine nerfs in it. As for the IH changes, they are good and were needed but they are still going to be really strong. The base marine codex already pushed them to the top 2. (whether its better then eldar flyer spam can be argued). The supplements still push them over the top. |
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Post by No One on Oct 18, 2019 1:52:56 GMT
Auspex scan says as soon as a unit appears within 12", then you ask them do you want to auspex scan me if they do you can then bring in a different unit place them 9" away and then move them D6 forward instead. No it doesn't: as I said, it just states 'after'. Use this Stratagem after your opponent sets up a unit on the battlefield within 12" of any ADEPTUS ASTARTES INFANTRY units from your army. Ours says 'immediately after': Use this Stratagem in the Movement phase, immediately after you set up an INFANTRY or BIKER unit from your army that has the Cult Ambush ability on the battlefield. Like, I get the idea if they both happen at the same time: I don't see any reason for them to happen at the same time. As for the IH changes, they are good and were needed but they are still going to be really strong. The base marine codex already pushed them to the top 2. (whether its better then eldar flyer spam can be argued). The supplements still push them over the top. Nah, good? Sure. Top 2? Nope: SM weren't dominating tournaments after their Codex dropped, or even doing as well as other factions like GSC/Eldar (either or)/Soup etc. They were winning more, but only like 2-3 top 4s (not 100% on what the period between Codex and supplements would've been for tournaments). It's not until more recently with the other supplements (UM/WS, and now of course IH) that they've really started to dominate more than any other faction. And even then, I'm not sure if UM/WS have had a better win rate than other top tier factions (I think so, but it's a bit hard to judge with IH). |
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Post by xsquidz on Oct 18, 2019 2:45:38 GMT
Auspex scan says as soon as a unit appears within 12", then you ask them do you want to auspex scan me if they do you can then bring in a different unit place them 9" away and then move them D6 forward instead. No it doesn't: as I said, it just states 'after'. Use this Stratagem after your opponent sets up a unit on the battlefield within 12" of any ADEPTUS ASTARTES INFANTRY units from your army. Ours says 'immediately after': Use this Stratagem in the Movement phase, immediately after you set up an INFANTRY or BIKER unit from your army that has the Cult Ambush ability on the battlefield. Like, I get the idea if they both happen at the same time: I don't see any reason for them to happen at the same time. This is exactly what auspex scan says word for word "Use this Stratagem after your opponent sets up a unit on the battlefield within 12"of an... blah blah". Okay so when they come in from reserve you "set them up 9" away. Here is the wording from cult ambush: When you "set up" a unit underground, it can emerge at the end of any of your Movement phases–"set" the unit up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" from any enemy models. Note the use of the word SET. Then A perfect Ambush "Use this Stratagem in the Movement phase, immediately after you set up an... blah blah blah", once you have moved the unit D6 it is no longer being set up so its too late to use auspex scan-this is movement after set up. You could deploy 12.1" inches away so they can't scan you and then you move forward D6 to get into charge range if you needed to. |
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Post by No One on Oct 18, 2019 2:51:06 GMT
Like, by that logic I can use PA to deny auspex, it doesn't matter what they do. Because PA is immediately after, so goes first (or at worst, same time so I pick). I...really don't like that reasoning.
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Post by xsquidz on Oct 18, 2019 3:00:01 GMT
Like, by that logic I can use PA to deny auspex, it doesn't matter what they do. Because PA is immediately after, so goes first (or at worst, same time so I pick). I...really don't like that reasoning. You can only deny Auspex scan if you deploy 12.1 away which screws you over a bit (Becuase it increases your charge by 3") and if you get a bad PA roll you WILL fail your charge but it can be worth it. The same thing works against Phobos marines, DS 12.1 away outside their bubble and then move forward D6 to charge them. Stop helping the marines, they are good enough LOL. Especially now. |
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Post by No One on Oct 18, 2019 3:58:58 GMT
Stop helping the marines, they are good enough LOL. Especially now. I don't care how super OP an army is: if I'm not confident in how a rules interaction works, I'm not going to use it. (If nothing else, I don't want to be arguing with someone when I don't understand why the rules function that way). But anyway, just going to ramble a bit and see if I can figure it out. I think I get where you're coming from a bit better. You're right on being able to come down outside of 12" to prevent declaration (wouldn't have set a unit up within 12" even if you PA within that range), was mixing myself up a tad on that. So, I think I'll just break down every way I think this could play out: Scenario 1: Drop. It's immediately after set up, so I declare PA. It's after set up, so opponent declares auspex. I move, they shoot me. Scenario 2: Drop. Immediately after set up, so I declare PA, resolve PA. Not really after set up, can't auspex. Scenario 3: Drop. Opponent declares auspex and resolves. Not immediately after set up, can't PA. Scenario 4: Drop. It's immediately after set up, so I declare PA. It's after set up, so opponent declares auspex. They shoot me, I move. Also 5-8 as variants of 1 and 4 with auspex declared first: I technically don't think it's valid due to 'immediately', but it's also one of those things were game back and forth would mess with it. Not really a good thing if your opponent can deny PA outright just by very quickly saying 'auspex'...But I don't think you should be asking if they auspex and then declaring PA either, unless we're looking at 'immediately after' as the same as just 'after' (which...GW, who knows if they're supposed to be the same thing or not?). Scenario 3 only happens if you don't want to use PA, since the same logic (and immediately/player turn selection of priority) means you could just take scenario 2. And I doubt anyone'd just let that slide without contesting it. Scenario 1 and 4 are essentially the same, where declaration of both strats happens after set up (PA happens first, but not hugely relevant). Then resolve both strats sequentially: on the one hand, PA says 'immediately', but that's only for declaration, not resolution if we're separating them (and if we're not separating them, see 2 and 3). Which means they happen 'simultaneously' and as player turn it's our pick as to order i.e. could make them resolve auspex first if out of LoS, or 2nd if...that would somehow ever be relevant. TL;DR I think you're mostly right, if for slightly different reasons, but not exactly something that I'd be able to quickly explain in a game if my opponent disagrees... |
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Post by 1b2a on Oct 18, 2019 12:24:12 GMT
If PA must happen immediately after setup then they can’t auspex scam.! This makes sense because the stratagem is called perfect ambush and is 3 Cp. immediately after means it is before “after” in auspex scan. But rules wise if “after” means before any other action of the setup of the initial drop, then no they can’t interact.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 18, 2019 12:53:51 GMT
No OneAuspex is after a unit is set up within 9" PA is a movement after you set up. If you setup outside of 12", then use PA, they can never Auspex you to begin with because you're not in range. This is because PA is a movement, not part of your seting up.
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Post by No One on Oct 18, 2019 12:59:59 GMT
If you setup outside of 12", then use PA, they can never Auspex you to begin with because you're not in range. This is because PA is a movement, not part of your seting up. Yes, I got that bit. The two things that xsquidz mentioned that I'm rambling about is when you do come down within 12". Can you: 1. Stay out of LoS, then PA and not get shot even if though you set up in auspex declaration range, and end PA in LoS? 2. Wait till they've declared auspex (or not) then PA (or not). |
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 18, 2019 13:05:31 GMT
Logically "after" is later than "immediately after", so.....
The only smart answer is simply, do not deepstrike within 12".
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Post by xsquidz on Oct 18, 2019 13:05:37 GMT
If you setup outside of 12", then use PA, they can never Auspex you to begin with because you're not in range. This is because PA is a movement, not part of your seting up. Yes, I got that bit. The two things that xsquidz mentioned that I'm rambling about is when you do come down within 12": 1. Can you stay out of LoS, then PA (or similarly with relation to other short ranged stuff)? 2. Waiting till they've declared auspex (or not) then PA (or not). Yes to both, just don't be a dick about it lol. Land 9" away and ask "do you want to auspex scan me?" if they say no, move forward D6. If they say yes, then bring another unit down within 9" and use PA on them instead. Again this is extreme circumstances, like landing beside aggressors, if its a scout squad, let them auspex and who cares. I have done this and the LOS thing on people many times in tournaments and not had 1 marine player ever complain about it, it makes sense to them as well. Its a fricken 3 CP strat that might only move you forward 1" lol. |
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