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Post by gorsameth on Oct 18, 2019 21:17:45 GMT
I really wouldn't read so much into 'immediately' when there is a lot of evidence GW isn't that careful with their choice of words.
Both happen after deploying but before doing something else. Rulebook says whoever's turn it is gets to decide the order when multiple things happen at once.
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Post by No One on Oct 19, 2019 0:09:03 GMT
That is true, but without precedence that's not an assumption I'd make (if my opponent actually knew the wording of my rules, they'd be totally justified in pulling me up on it).
However, I've got precedence that they don't care and it is just a pretty word, so we're fine (tyrannocyte disembark is immediately after deployment, but auspex etc can shoot the t-cyte before they disembark).
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 19, 2019 5:50:31 GMT
TO here would differentiate based on Immediately, so there you go. If we're talking written, you definitely have to PA before they auspex. But if your TOs dont, then dont sweat it.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 19, 2019 18:46:57 GMT
Guys, forget IH. Sallies just removed Nids and GSC from the game.
Max shot or rr shot Flamers at 11" that can also be a Hawkshroud thing that Overwatches on behalf of other unit and HI in thereafter at 2d6 range.
Flamers have an innate +1 to wound, with a potential +2 to wound, and -1ap in tact doc from T2 onwards (not like ap is a huge deal with our TShirt saves anyway)
Pair these 2 things with Transhuman Physio, and a 2ndary WLT to reduce damage like -1ap ignore, you have an army that's really difficult for us to break into and you take a LOT of damage going in on it even after, in combat.
Then in their turn.... Those Assault flamers turn to Pistol D6 while you're still in combat.
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Post by gorsameth on Oct 19, 2019 18:56:37 GMT
Guys, forget IH. Sallies just removed Nids and GSC from the game. Max shot or rr shot Flamers at 11" that can also be a Hawkshroud thing that Overwatches on behalf of other unit and HI in thereafter at 2d6 range. Flamers have an innate +1 to wound, with a potential +2 to wound, and -1ap in tact doc from T2 onwards (not like ap is a huge deal with our TShirt saves anyway) Pair these 2 things with Transhuman Physio, and a 2ndary WLT to reduce damage like -1ap ignore, you have an army that's really difficult for us to break into and you take a LOT of damage going in on it even after, in combat. Then in their turn.... Those Assault flamers turn to Pistol D6 while you're still in combat. Sucks if you run into it but the short range makes me doubt if it becomes a good competitive army against the greater field and you won't see them to much compared to the other chapters. |
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Post by bolk on Oct 19, 2019 19:09:53 GMT
Automatic hits, +1 wound, 11" range, -1AP, turns to Pistol D6 in combat. I think we`ll see quite a bit of them.
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 19, 2019 19:21:03 GMT
Oof.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 19, 2019 19:42:22 GMT
Guys, forget IH. Sallies just removed Nids and GSC from the game. Max shot or rr shot Flamers at 11" that can also be a Hawkshroud thing that Overwatches on behalf of other unit and HI in thereafter at 2d6 range. Flamers have an innate +1 to wound, with a potential +2 to wound, and -1ap in tact doc from T2 onwards (not like ap is a huge deal with our TShirt saves anyway) Pair these 2 things with Transhuman Physio, and a 2ndary WLT to reduce damage like -1ap ignore, you have an army that's really difficult for us to break into and you take a LOT of damage going in on it even after, in combat. Then in their turn.... Those Assault flamers turn to Pistol D6 while you're still in combat. Sucks if you run into it but the short range makes me doubt if it becomes a good competitive army against the greater field and you won't see them to much compared to the other chapters. Considering they have a strategem to force you to target an infantry unit before anything else, and can field a T8 W7 2+ 4++ character with min 4+ to wound, that can still be blocked off by other units - delivery of footslogging Aggressors are suddenly viable. Add that to combi-Flamers that can shoot out of deepstrike, Melta guns that can decimate any target in the game with a potential +2 to wound, a reroll to hit reroll to wound without condition for flamer and Melta... Add to the fact that there's a mortal wound generator strategem (depending on reading, it's either a single model with a flamer, or every model with a flamer) tied to 4+ to wound with flamer, and a reroll to wound flamer, and a possibility of maxing the number of shots or re-rolling it - there is a LOT going on here. They may not be the strongest army out there but they are going to be one hell of a gate keeper. Not many armies are given direct tools to take on both Horde and Tanks in such an effective manner, and also forming almost the ultimate melee-discouraging setup to play against. |
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 19, 2019 19:44:58 GMT
Can aggressors ride on the new impulsors?
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Post by gorsameth on Oct 19, 2019 20:08:05 GMT
Can aggressors ride on the new impulsors? No, Gravis armor isn't allowed. |
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 19, 2019 20:09:37 GMT
Noted, thank you.
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Post by No One on Oct 20, 2019 1:18:54 GMT
Guys, forget IH. Sallies just removed Nids and GSC from the game. Oof. The early leaks made them seem pretty tame.  There's at least some counterplay with GSC (Generations/outrange, or hyp/amulet if they're too forward) and stay the heck out of combat unless you kill them and make sure you hostage something else. But that's too much stuff to need to have for a melee army to have a chance. And +1 sv against D1. Also 1 CP +1 S, 1 CP +1 wound for retaliation. What is this garbage? It's not even forcing you to target the infantry unit first. You could have a Character behind (so you can't kill the protection aura), and a rhino/invictor/Flyer out front. Those units are closer than the infantry units within 6", they can't be targeted. And the protected units don't even need to be Salamanders. And gets res strat. Single model with flamer: just says pick a model with flamer, no reference to unit. It's almost just a very solid strat, it's only really aggressors (and other 2d6 stuff like invictors with rr/max shots and/or rr wounds: just 2d6 is only ~3 MW. Good for 1 CP, but nothing crazy) that makes it insane, even before getting into the aforementioned buffs. The +1 wound cuts down on the ridiculousness you can do with full wound rerolls, but still pretty ridiculous (3/4 CP for aggressors in Vulcan range to do 20 MW to a knight: only 16" threat range, but still). |
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Post by No One on Oct 20, 2019 9:18:30 GMT
Since I didn't think there was much point in continuing this in the other thread. IIRC it's like 6A on SC and 5A on OOE - 3+ rr1s vs 2+, exploding attacks on OOE puts it slightly ahead. 4 A base, so only 5 with shock assault. I mean, yeah SM have a lot of good options for investing more power into a smash cap. But without them, OOE does more damage. Even with them...giving them sword (1 CP without sacrificing WL), might (extra commitment) and digital weapons (relic, 1 CP), you'll do ~10 wounds onto anything without an invul. OOE with voracious does ~14 wounds into T7, ~10 into T8 (scy tals). CM's not going to be in range of a solo smash cap (which is part of the appeal that they can kill stuff completely unsupported), and I don't think there's really much in the way of hit bonuses outside of RG? Now, more chapter specific stuff can be nasty: I think there's some strong smash cap relics/WLT for Salamanders, and they've also got 1 CP for +1 wound (and +1 S, but unless they've got a WLT better than Imp Sword, or are running that elsewhere, seems pretty irrelevant on a smash cap). Imp sword+digital and +1 wound gets you to 13 wounds against 3+ no invul. It's mainly the mobility that sets them apart, but the cost, durability and being only 'limited' (i.e. generally WLT/relic dependant to be really strong) sure as heck don't hurt. Eh, I dunno. Outside of extra relics (which SM get like candy, yeah), we're pretty efficient thanks to broodcoven. Unless you want both specialists and WLT, that's 3 CP for 4 WLT and other strat access, where SM go 1:1. Admittedly, SM get a wider pool of solid traits to draw from, but still.
Edit: And ours can work just fine without specialist dets in certain builds (i.e. not FAE). They're worse, but so is SM without e.g. CM *shrug*.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 20, 2019 9:54:43 GMT
Acolytes without Draw is a big question mark - why even? You'd have to laden them with Saws to get anything done then, and we all know how expensive those units get.
Then you'd have to contend with 9", 8", or 7" charges(FAE only) - or only getting 1 unit in a turn with PA. It's not a great look. At the very least, Acolyte spam needs that reroll Iconward so that more than 1 unit has its fair chance.
You can burn 2cp for Broodsurge to save CP and leave out the Abbys, but if you're bringing Abbys like me then this is close to a non starter - Abbys need their Vigilus strat and good play to be the crazy all-stars that they are, because you make it hard for them to just stall and murder you later - you always get to trade. So our minimum expenditure is at least 3, 4 if you need some surety on the Abbys making the charge. (charging is always a risk issue - 2 games prior I failed making a 6" charge, and this last game I barely made a 6" with a cpreroll AND Clammy +Abom in range. Failing charges has seriously heavy consequences.)
So SM pay 1cp for extra WLT, 1cp for extra WL, no CP for relic (all of the chapters only have like 1 really good relic so they will only spend for soup SM, which as far as I'm aware won't be much of a thing yet), and 2cp for CM.
Assuming the extra WL is always SoI (base codex doesn't have good choices), SM spend 3cp to seriously multiply the ability of their army, and have no other mandatory setup CP to spend thereafter.
GSC has 2-4 mandatory setup CPs to spend, 1 or 3 for extra relic because we have 2-3 core setup relics required, then 1cp for Broodcoven because that's actually really good, and then must spend a further 3cp to setup another unit before it can actually do work... Which is still liable for severe RNG failure, while SM have no RNG failure parts in their setup.
I mean, why are we comparing? It's evident how much better that stupid army is, with its incredibly low risk investments and high performance Ratios.
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Post by No One on Oct 20, 2019 11:43:37 GMT
Acolytes without Draw is a big question mark - why even? You'd have to laden them with Saws to get anything done then, and we all know how expensive those units get. Then you'd have to contend with 9", 8", or 7" charges(FAE only) - or only getting 1 unit in a turn with PA. It's not a great look. At the very least, Acolyte spam needs that reroll Iconward so that more than 1 unit has its fair chance. I mean, they can get things done (I forget to draw more often than I should  ). But was more referring to abby builds: again, lose a lot without the fight on death, but the army doesn't cease to function. Basically, draw/fight are very strong strats, but they're not the core strategy. Edit: Giving fight more credit, it can be a pretty key part of strategy depending on match up *cough* SM. Unlike FAE, where the WLT is a part of that core strategy, and removing that basically kills the lists.
Or just running builds that only use one specialist det: 3 CP is broodsurge+broodcoven+auger. Which, even ignoring my skew list, is perfectly viable.
There seem to be some good (albeit more niche) relics e.g. shadows/psychic buffs (or at least I think I'd be tempted for 1 CP  ). Also master crafted/other stuff for smash caps (better against anything other than T8+ than SoI, stacks with SoI, and doesn't in any way restrict the rest of your army since relics is spammable and WLT isn't). I don't know why we're comparing, you're the one who brought it up... |
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There's at least some counterplay with GSC (Generations/outrange, or hyp/amulet if they're too forward) and stay the heck out of combat unless you kill them and make sure you hostage something else. But that's too much stuff to need to have for a melee army to have a chance. 
). But was more referring to abby builds: again, lose a lot without the fight on death, but the army doesn't cease to function. Basically, draw/fight are very strong strats, but they're not the core strategy. Edit: Giving fight more credit, it can be a pretty key part of strategy depending on match up *cough* SM. Unlike FAE, where the WLT is a part of that core strategy, and removing that basically kills the lists.
). Also master crafted/other stuff for smash caps (better against anything other than T8+ than SoI, stacks with SoI, and doesn't in any way restrict the rest of your army since relics is spammable and WLT isn't).