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Post by autoxidation on Jun 23, 2018 23:48:48 GMT
But there is the MACHINE SPIRIT RESURGENT stratagem which is 1CP and you count that model as the top tier effectiveness until the end of the turn. For knights its 1d6 if you roll a 6 it blows up, i wouldn't run it on any of the roll 2d6, but a 6 on 1d6 is 17% which means that you're at 83% chance that that portion will go off, as well as 50% + reroll to actually stand up is still 75% meaning its a 62% chance it'll go off unhinged with no issues, which is pretty decent imo to have a knight stand back up. That's costing a lot of CP for an army starved of it. The last thing I noticed is that, there are two stratagems if you go with an ADMECH detatchment supporting it that lets you negate mortal wounds on a 5+ as two differently named stratagems so I believe you can cast both of them and get 33% + 33% chance to stop any mortal wounds from going through onto your knight. You can't stack abilities that ignore wounds anymore. You may only pick and use one. |
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Post by hiveminded on Jun 24, 2018 0:10:50 GMT
They aren't starved for CPs anymore...FAQ that just came out gave them a nice CP boost.
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Post by mule on Jun 24, 2018 0:15:22 GMT
Theyre not as CP starved anymore since they just got a faq. Also you can still take a cheap guard detatchment and have the recycleable CP.
Also does it just state for wounds cause these specifically state mortal wounds.
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Post by kazetanade on Jun 24, 2018 5:23:05 GMT
A standard 1750 Knight army can pack 14 cp in it... which is more than what i pack in most my lists. DOMINUS + 2 Questors, then 2 company commanders 3 IG squads 3 Chimeras.
If you could T1 kill a Knight then you stand a decent chance of neutering the army for the game but well... i dont think its easy. Loke stated earlier we can toss 2 Flyrants and Double Tap HG into one and should be enough to kill 1, but why are they going into range of the HG if they cant neuter other things in your army? Then there's rotate ion shield if they do, cutting HG output by a further 50%. So you're left with Flyrants, which are going to need a miracle to kill a Knight in combat.
Edit: I'm not wanting to sound defeatist, just that i havent seen a secure method of doing it. All of it is pretty touch-and-go kinda thing.
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Post by mule on Jun 24, 2018 5:48:32 GMT
A standard 1750 Knight army can pack 14 cp in it... which is more than what i pack in most my lists. DOMINUS + 2 Questors, then 2 company commanders 3 IG squads 3 Chimeras. If you could T1 kill a Knight then you stand a decent chance of neutering the army for the game but well... i dont think its easy. Loke stated earlier we can toss 2 Flyrants and Double Tap HG into one and should be enough to kill 1, but why are they going into range of the HG if they cant neuter other things in your army? Then there's rotate ion shield if they do, cutting HG output by a further 50%. So you're left with Flyrants, which are going to need a miracle to kill a Knight in combat. Edit: I'm not wanting to sound defeatist, just that i havent seen a secure method of doing it. All of it is pretty touch-and-go kinda thing. The problem about feeling this way is that the meta isn't determined by tyranid vs knights. We're going to have good matchups and bad matchups. The best thing to do is see how other armies handle them because if knights only good matchup is vs nids then you're not going to see very many knights. |
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Post by mattblowers on Jun 24, 2018 10:36:35 GMT
This is a good re-balancing of the game. Something was needed to check the hordes spamming. Too many lists that tried for board control and scoring and didn't really care about actually fighting. Now you have to have some anti-tank in your list.
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Post by acehilator on Jun 24, 2018 11:49:29 GMT
mule 62% sounds about right, that is really poor considering it costs 3-4 CP. And apart from that stratagem Taranis has nothing going for them, the House bonus is bad, the WL trait is horrible, the relic weak. Granted, the latter two are true for House Raven as well (the relic is actually decent but still not worth taking probably), but both the stratagem and House bonus for Raven are insanely strong. Using AdMech instead of IG would be reducing effectiveness further, and you can't stack the stratagems anyways (any ability that ignores MW is an ability that ignores wounds, so it falls under the "Big FAQ" change).
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Post by mattblowers on Jul 2, 2018 15:43:48 GMT
OK, so expect to see some knights. I took a Knight list myself to an RTT for a break from my 'nid painting (1 double melee and 4 helvigers with AM)this past weekend. I went 1-2. Not bad considering I had only plaid 1 game with the list going in. I crushed my first opponent, lost by 2 points to a great player on turn 6 to a well honed ATC list, and got curb stomped by in my 3rd game. The last 2 lists had an indominus knight. The no LOS, no invul, ignore character rule, no armour save unless your have a 2+ and then it's a 6 plus, Strength 10 wounds D6 is awful at sniping out your characters, nothing should break that many rules of the game, it's how power creep and the craziness that was 7th comes to be.
My gallant knight was just a massive distraction carnifex. It worked brilliantly in my first game, although the deathguard player ignored it and my knight single handedly wrecked his army. The next player had FW AM flyers and an indominus. The only thing I could shoot at was the indominus on turn 1. He gives up very few secondary points. I managed to bring it back and only lose by 2 points. One of the best games I've had in a while. With a tightened list or even better play on my end, I could have won it.
My last game I was crushed hard by an indominus knight with melta scions and custodes bikes. Uggh. It was a blood bath. He outright killed with his knight against my hellhound that I sent in to eat overwatch with his conflagaration cannon and 4 meltas. He then took 11 more wounds off to take me down a tier even with hawkshroud. My knight hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s did 12 only damage. This after my putting my entire army into him for a round of shooting first and getting no wounds because of his 3++. In retrospect I should have killed his bikes and then outscored him. Live and learn.
Outakes after playing both with and against the knights.
- the character sniping missile is bad for the game. It breaks too many rules.
- the harpoon is trash, it didn't do a single point of damage in any game.
- the conflagation cannon is real. It simply kills things.
- knights in a lance have to pick one as a character. This gives Kingslayer max points in ITC.
- look out for helvigers, large knights are brutal and will commmand your attention. The little knights killed a dominus for me on turn 2. It just works.
- you win/lose against knights by controlling movement. 3-6 biovores aren't a bad investment if you fear knights.
- big knight only hits on 4s in close combat. That's only 6 hits. If you have something that is tanky, you should be able to do lock one down for a bit.
- the harpoon knight can be completely neutured because of it's poor range. 300 points of biovores could pin 2 of them deep for the whole game. The other big knight will sit back and melt your face off.
- the knight gallant is really good. It hit's on 2s and gets 5 attacks (6 on the charge or if charged) which is 15/18 titanic feet.
- Tzeentch can take control of a knight and use it for a turn. That's gross and hilarious.
- GSC mind control: worth taking GSC just for that.
- a 3++ knight is really hard to bring down.
Those are my thoughts so far. It's a difficult problem, especially for 'nids, but we do have the tools to deal with it.
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 2, 2018 18:17:13 GMT
If I can weigh in on a few casual games last weekend:
Dominus Castellans are going to be vulnerable to melee and -1 Hit penalties, its one of the few Knights you can send in a unit of Genestealers and expect them to not die. Assuming you get average rolls, 11 damage x 2 for Fight Again basically takes it down to "ready to kill any time" levels. He's still hitting like normal though, so -1 Hit is still pretty key.
Dominus Valiants though... that thing gives me Nightmares. It's 4+ in combat, but the flamer relic will wreck almost anything that tries to touch it. It's Acid Spray on super steroids. Ignores hit penalties hence, has a reasonable and kinda scary threat range with Raven + Harpoon + Flamer + Shieldbreakers, and short of actually having a tonne of bodies to feed Reaper points for (or a tonne of Biovores), it's going where it pleases. I mean, bloody hell I was looking at 20" Moves + 8?" average Charge ranges + 18" Flamer range +12" for the Harpoon, ignoring the shieldbreaker shenanigans. If I didnt have GSC Mass Hypnopsis, that one model would have wrecked my entire army in short order. Harpoon was always a threat; if it passed, something auto dies. It may not be consistently getting kills, but the threat of its potential is enough to make it a problem.
People are saying Hawkshroud MVP, but honestly I'm not convinced. Allowing Knights to advance and shoot without problems, IS a problem. Allowing to Advance 20" and CHARGE for a maximum of 14" IS a problem. Put both together and I'm kind of speechless. I mean they have a strategem to IGNORE their damage for a turn and act like normal... Do you really need Hawkshroud for the FtGG effect?
Them Gallants are really boss. Not the best pick IMO, but wow are they scary.
I think most single Knight lists wont be a trouble for us to handle - when all is said and done, unless he's carrying that 5++ in combat, you can probably engage it in melee and win. Horror, Hypnopsis, Bring it down a peg, and it's not going to wreck us. Dominus cant even step on you. If it's a sit back and shoot Knight, and does nothing but shoot, then he's not doing enough for the point cost especially with The Horror tacked on, and killing the rest of his army is a viable option. When running into 3 man Knight squads though, other than giving up Titan and Kingslayers, which would take an inordinate amount of effort to do anyway... Man, uphill battle.
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Post by acehilator on Jul 2, 2018 18:45:04 GMT
Raven for sure. The flamer relic + stratagem for Hawkshroud is really really good, but the additional speed for Raven is still better. Also helps with the range issue on the harpoon + meltas on the Valiant. Instead of 10" you are looking at 15.5" movement per turn, so damn nice.
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Post by mattblowers on Jul 2, 2018 19:28:03 GMT
I mean, bloody hell I was looking at 20" Moves + 8?" What am I missing? They are 10" base, where is the other 10" coming from? |
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 2, 2018 19:39:51 GMT
I mean, bloody hell I was looking at 20" Moves + 8?" What am I missing? They are 10" base, where is the other 10" coming from? 12" base i think, with 6" Advance + 2" aura warlord trait on one of the gallants. |
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Post by mule on Jul 2, 2018 20:08:57 GMT
OK, so expect to see some knights. I took a Knight list myself to an RTT for a break from my 'nid painting (1 double melee and 4 helvigers with AM)this past weekend. I went 1-2. Not bad considering I had only plaid 1 game with the list going in. I crushed my first opponent, lost by 2 points to a great player on turn 6 to a well honed ATC list, and got curb stomped by in my 3rd game. The last 2 lists had an indominus knight. The no LOS, no invul, ignore character rule, no armour save unless your have a 2+ and then it's a 6 plus, Strength 10 wounds D6 is awful at sniping out your characters, nothing should break that many rules of the game, it's how power creep and the craziness that was 7th comes to be. My gallant knight was just a massive distraction carnifex. It worked brilliantly in my first game, although the deathguard player ignored it and my knight single handedly wrecked his army. The next player had FW AM flyers and an indominus. The only thing I could shoot at was the indominus on turn 1. He gives up very few secondary points. I managed to bring it back and only lose by 2 points. One of the best games I've had in a while. With a tightened list or even better play on my end, I could have won it. My last game I was crushed hard by an indominus knight with melta scions and custodes bikes. Uggh. It was a blood bath. He outright killed with his knight against my hellhound that I sent in to eat overwatch with his conflagaration cannon and 4 meltas. He then took 11 more wounds off to take me down a tier even with hawkshroud. My knight hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s did 12 only damage. This after my putting my entire army into him for a round of shooting first and getting no wounds because of his 3++. In retrospect I should have killed his bikes and then outscored him. Live and learn. Outakes after playing both with and against the knights. - the character sniping missile is bad for the game. It breaks too many rules. - the harpoon is trash, it didn't do a single point of damage in any game. - the conflagation cannon is real. It simply kills things. - knights in a lance have to pick one as a character. This gives Kingslayer max points in ITC. - look out for helvigers, large knights are brutal and will commmand your attention. The little knights killed a dominus for me on turn 2. It just works. - you win/lose against knights by controlling movement. 3-6 biovores aren't a bad investment if you fear knights. - big knight only hits on 4s in close combat. That's only 6 hits. If you have something that is tanky, you should be able to do lock one down for a bit. - the harpoon knight can be completely neutured because of it's poor range. 300 points of biovores could pin 2 of them deep for the whole game. The other big knight will sit back and melt your face off. - the knight gallant is really good. It hit's on 2s and gets 5 attacks (6 on the charge or if charged) which is 15/18 titanic feet. - Tzeentch can take control of a knight and use it for a turn. That's gross and hilarious. - GSC mind control: worth taking GSC just for that. - a 3++ knight is really hard to bring down. Those are my thoughts so far. It's a difficult problem, especially for 'nids, but we do have the tools to deal with it. Hey look, Who would've guessed biovores are good?  Like I said, Nids will have a hard time, and until GSC codex comes out I'm not taking them. We have tools but for the most part I'll just chip away at them and take the board and just win with points rather than exterminating threats. |
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Post by yoritomo on Jul 2, 2018 22:11:52 GMT
We deal with them like we always deal with them. When our opponent isn’t looking we grab the knight, run out of the game store, and throw the damn thing into traffic.
After a couple of games out opponents will learn not to bring knights against us. Problem solved, problem staying solved.
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Post by nidzy on Jul 2, 2018 22:33:08 GMT
My strategy for dealing with knights thus far:
Step 1: Spam Impaler and Heavy Venom Cannons
Step 2: ...
Step 3: profit
Luckily my competitive list had taken a has taken a hard move toward carnifex and hive guard in the last couple of months, so I was pretty ready for the first couple knight lists I have seen. Playing with them also helps. Helevern spam is the one thing that keeps me a little bit panicked about this book, but I will try to shoot at that bridge with bio cannons when I come to it.
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