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Post by kazetanade on Oct 5, 2021 10:52:24 GMT
Ah. I missed the skull, and skimmed over the biologus - I thought his was only for grenades, not plague in general. The other ways I did see and never really felt/noticed in practice games. It doesn't help that the only real psyker seems to be Morty, the plaguecaster fails more often than succeeds for some reason. I played against and tested a Blightlords + Daemon Engines DG list in the past much to my dismay on performance- the bolters i tried to turn into plague weapons with ap and reroll to wound, but really didn't hurt much and I couldn't make it hurt hard enough - likewise I charged into Blightlords willingly because their flails, while good, only 1 or 2 per unit wasn't enough to destroy my units and I often stole objectives in such a manner. The Deathshroud Flamers actually did more since it is often in range of reroll to wound if it shoots. Typhus was a real scare though. I might want to take another out again for a spin. tomb can you share how you use the 2x10 Blightlords for some reference?
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Post by tomb on Oct 5, 2021 18:37:22 GMT
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [100 PL, 2,000pts, 5CP] ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost
Gametype: Matched
Plague Company: The Inexorable
+ Stratagems +
Gifts of Decay [-2CP]: 2x Additional Relics
+ No Force Org Slot +
Tallyman [4 PL, 70pts]: Tollkeeper
+ HQ +
Death Guard Chaos Lord [5 PL, 90pts, -1CP]: Combi-bolter, Ferric Blight, Plaguechosen, Power axe
Death Guard Daemon Prince [10 PL, 185pts]: 3. Plague Wind, 5. Rotten Constitution, Foetid Wings, Hellforged sword, Suppurating Plate, Warlord
+ Troops +
Plague Marines [6 PL, 115pts] . Plague Champion: Boltgun, Plague knife . 3x Plague Marine w/ boltgun: 3x Blight grenades, 3x Boltgun, 3x Krak grenades, 3x Plague knife . Plague Marine w/ flail: Flail of corruption
Plague Marines [6 PL, 115pts] . Plague Champion: Boltgun, Plague knife . 3x Plague Marine w/ boltgun: 3x Blight grenades, 3x Boltgun, 3x Krak grenades, 3x Plague knife . Plague Marine w/ flail: Flail of corruption
Poxwalkers [2 PL, 50pts] . 10x Poxwalker: 10x Improvised weapon
Poxwalkers [2 PL, 50pts] . 10x Poxwalker: 10x Improvised weapon
Poxwalkers [2 PL, 50pts] . 10x Poxwalker: 10x Improvised weapon
Poxwalkers [2 PL, 50pts] . 10x Poxwalker: 10x Improvised weapon
+ Elites +
Blightlord Terminators [20 PL, 420pts] . Blightlord Champion: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter . Blightlord Terminator: Flail of corruption . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Reaper autocannon . Blightlord Terminator: Flail of corruption . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Reaper autocannon . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter
Blightlord Terminators [20 PL, 420pts, -1CP] . Blightlord Champion: Bubotic Axe, Champion of Disease, Combi-bolter, Plague Skull of Glothila . Blightlord Terminator: Flail of corruption . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Reaper autocannon . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Reaper autocannon . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter . Blightlord Terminator: Flail of corruption . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter . Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter
Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, 150pts, -1CP]: 2x Twin volkite culverin
Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, 150pts, -1CP]: 2x Twin volkite culverin
Foul Blightspawn [5 PL, 85pts, -1CP]: 4. Arch-Contaminator, Fugaris' Helm, Plaguechosen, Viscous Death
++ Total: [100 PL, 5CP, 2,000pts] ++
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Post by tomb on Oct 5, 2021 19:19:15 GMT
Apologies for dumping the whole list but I thought it would help with context.
This list can run as Inexorable or Mortarians Anvil. I actually prefer it in Mortarians Anvil because you can give the DP full reroll to hit and wound (plus the 5+++ trait) for fun and you can use the strat Relaptic Assault to allow any unit to heroically intervene near a charge 3". This can be very tasty when it actually happens (blightlords). Most people run this type of list in Inexorable due to the -1 AP.
Aditionally the list can swap out the blightspawn for the biologus or plague surgeon. I've found the blightspawn to be more of a big gun than an actual fights last tool.
Yep there are two volComs, they do work. They can be buffed by the lord for reroll 1's and the Tallymans relic Tollkeeper procs exploding sixes. Similar to Cronos hive guard. We've all seen this before.
But terrain dependant and or/ opposition dependant. You can also trail both 10 man blight lord units back to these buffs. Now that is allot of Bolter shots and a fair amount of autocannon shots getting buffed, good times if some one leaves something in the open.
The blight lords can simply move forward look for charges to gain more ground or hold the line. I usually actively want the opponent to charge them as they kill most units on the return swing or the grind. Be sure to use the +1 to hit and +1 to wound strats.
Position the key players in the unit in the centre, Sgt, with auto cannon and flail either side. These core models will keep the unit operating decently after losses.
Use the plague skull skull unit to take on Ghaz or a tough tank etc look for options to use the mortals to free the unit so that it can shoot and charge again the next turn, you do need to be a little carful with positioning but use charges, consilidate and engagement etc to position for the break out if possible.
The buff character trails between the units giving FNP or mortals or a fights last bubble dependant. Don't be afraid to run the buff character to the front of the unit he will need to catch up to the units tail post charge.
The two units move up the centre taking on whatever is thrown at them and then look to get a charge in for movement around the centre of the board. Here they split and begin moving after targets deep in the opponents lines. This helps score engage too.
The DP can follow a unit or both (first two rounds whilst both units are almost touching) to give buffs. He then looks to jump the units and charge problem units. In Mortarians Anvil he kills most stuff. Look for succubusses etc. He will die to most retaliation.
The plague Marines do actions etc and sit objectives.
The pox walkers are all reserved, they walk on the sides or reinforce as needed. So good for 1cp.
The list works well for solo and team play, it's made for team play, the volkites like to shoot AdMech,sisters and Dark Eldar. The Blightlords can go to to toe with all combat offerings from these armies.
Additinally the two units plus volcoms when buffed can blow away Dark angel Terminators or any marines hoping to sit on the centre objective. .
I hope this helps and isn't just the obvious.
If your interested I have a team only daemon engine list that's a ton of fun to play
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 6, 2021 13:31:57 GMT
tomb I was a bit surprised but that's actually my Necron list in a nutshell - I'd been trying too hard to make DG work around Arch-Contaminator (and by extension Mortarion), which I felt was their main unique draw. Maybe I can work something out if I change my approach to DG lists, but yea model availability is an issue too - I don't actually own DG, and have been trying out a friends collection XD If you don't mind, could you share your Daemon Engines list?
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Post by tomb on Oct 6, 2021 20:22:55 GMT
++ Vanguard Detachment -3CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [26 PL, 495pts, -6CP] +++ Configuration +Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]Plague Company: The Poxmongers + Stratagems +Gifts of Decay [-1CP]: Additional Relics + HQ +Lord of Contagion [6 PL, 125pts]: Manreaper and orb of desiccation + Elites +Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, 150pts, -1CP]: 2x Twin volkite culverin Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, 150pts, -1CP]: 2x Twin volkite culverin Tallyman [4 PL, 70pts]: Tollkeeper ++ Outrider Detachment -3CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [78 PL, 1,505pts, 8CP] +++ Configuration +Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]Gametype: Matched Plague Company: The Poxmongers + HQ +Death Guard Daemon Prince [10 PL, 185pts]: 1. Miasma of Pestilence, 5. Rotten Constitution, Foetid Wings, Hellforged sword, Ironclot Furnace, Warlord + Elites +Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, 150pts, -1CP]: 2x Twin volkite culverin + Fast Attack +Myphitic Blight-haulers [14 PL, 280pts]: Myphitic Blight-hauler, Myphitic Blight-hauler Myphitic Blight-haulers [14 PL, 280pts]: Myphitic Blight-hauler, Myphitic Blight-hauler Myphitic Blight-haulers [14 PL, 280pts]: Myphitic Blight-hauler, Myphitic Blight-hauler + Heavy Support +Plagueburst Crawler [9 PL, 165pts]: 2x Plaguespitter, Rothail volley gun Plagueburst Crawler [9 PL, 165pts]: 2x Plaguespitter, Rothail volley gun ++ Total: [104 PL, 2CP, 2,000pts] ++Created with BattleScribe
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Post by tomb on Oct 6, 2021 21:29:28 GMT
This list is totally different and shows how balanced the DG book is internally.
The list is majority T7, throws out a range of quality shooting and can still fight in combat (and shoot into combat too).
As long as you can stomach running three VolComs. Similar set up to previous but a lord of contagion holds the back line.
Poxmongers is viewed as not great anymore but the relic still buffs a vehicle to 4++. Which with Psychic de buffs (miasma) can make a vehicle or vehicle unit a great tarpit that shoots back.
Poxmongers strat allows : Models in that unit can make attacks with Blast weapons against units within Engagement Range of their unit. Each time a ranged attack is made by a model in that unit against an enemy unit that is within Engagement Range of their unit, add 1 to that attackās hit roll.
This gives PBC's the ability to mortar into combat which with flamers and the volley gun they can put up a decent close assault fight and can support the blight haulers. Furthermore the blight haulers can shoot better than normal actually in combat.
The list has tons of movement, table control and can place pressure on wherever it wants.
But it has no obsec so is always looking to delete obsec and cover objectives.
Being able to explode your own vehicles is a plus.
It is DG on hard mode but hits like a train when it comes together.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 13, 2021 17:04:16 GMT
I'm beginning to dable into list building for Orks and Necrons again - Orks I'm starting soon and Necrons are about to be fully painted end of year.
Thinking of doing full mech Necrons for a test - Necron melee hasn't worked(Skorpekh can't get far enough without an advance, can't advance and charge, can't survive being out in the open), but has decent mobility (vehicles, Wraiths and Tomb Blades) and passable shooting (great ap medium volume shooting, but 1D and multi-D tends to be swingy). Obsec everything is always strong. So, playing obsec everything with shooting to cull the herd, Quantum Shielding to make kill secure harder, and Ctan + other MWs to try and thin tough things down every turn. Psychomancer to kill obsec on something that might try to outscore/play games.
Not the absolute strongest iteration, but just wanting to test some of the vehicles since I've played mass Infantry/SK, or Wraith/CTan combos prior to this, not touched many vehicles.
If I was going to try to sharpen it, prob drop the Doomscythe for Triarch Praetorians to have 2nd countercharge (since only 2 Elite slots, can't fit ideal Skorpekh), and fill points using throwaway scarabs, or have HLD+ Lokhust Lord instead of prae + psychomancer (assuming psychomancer kill obsec is not really useful).
Eternal-Invaders Spearhead (obsec + vehicles shoot all times)
HQ - psychomancer (WL): Atavindicator, WLT- Thrall - plasmancer: Quantum Orb
Troops - 1 x 10 Warriors: Reapers
Elites - VD - Triarch Stalker
HS - Annil Barge - 2 x DDA - 2 x Tessy Ark
Flier - Doomscythe
DT - Ghost Ark
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Post by tomb on Oct 14, 2021 4:35:18 GMT
I'm surprised that I haven't seen this idea before. If the vehicles can gain obsec then it gives a Cron vehicle list a real advantage, add to that the fact they can fly, it's a cool idea. To be honest I'm out of touch with the stats for the vehicles we see them so little. Additionally you could drop the troops entirely or mount them in transports? Definitely play it, it sounds like it could unlock some interesting play styles.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 14, 2021 16:17:08 GMT
The troops are loaded into a GA - standard Transport threats objectives, if you destroy it then 10 obsec bodies pop out. Only diff is the transport is perma-trans 5++ 14W obsec too, so it's actually hard to get it off, and requires obsec resources (WLT Marines, actual obsec bodies, relics that remove obsec) to deal with.
As for stats: - GA and DDA T6 14W 3+ QS, both have rapid10 S4 -1ap so it's a fair bit of anti-infantry packed in a few models. DDAs have S8/S10 ap-3/-5 and d3/d6D (move or not move profiles).
- Tessy Arks have T7 W10 3+ 4++ QS(the 4++ takes precedence), and a multi type weapon for D6 shots of anti-horde, anti-elite, or anti-tank. Also a pair of secondary weapons of particles/tesla/gauss, like the bikes basically.
- Annil Barge is T6 W9 3+ QS, with a big Tesla gun and either Tesla or Gauss secondary.
- HLDs are T5 W4 3+ infantry, with either an S10 ap-3 3d3 gun (a better rail rifle), or 3d3 shots of S7 ap-1 1D. Reroll 1s to hit naturally, 1s to wound with a Destroyer Lord, and 1 reroll in Szarekhan.
I might just do a full on output list instead though, instead of trying to make transport plays. Warriors are expensive, and without a +1 or rerolls, and the other tricks you can use on them, they don't really do that much damage. And without warriors, there is no point to have a transport.
The Flier is also. Its only 3 shots of 3+d3, and 10 shots of Tesla which is not considered very good. No obsec and no Quantim Shielding, trading it for a -1 to hit, but not hideable - it can probably be dropped to be more efficient.
V2:
Eternal Invaders - Psychomancer - Plasmancer - Cryptothralls (ROD 3rd scorer) - VD - 1x5 Flayed Ones (ROD final scorer) - Annil Barge - 3 DDA - 2 Tessy Ark
Szarekhan - Plasmancer - Triarch Stalker - 3x1 HLD: Gauss
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 15, 2021 20:10:04 GMT
Great update on Octarius. Just mulling after listening to that atrocious review, but the fact are good. Also very flavourful - the synapse changes are precisely what a few many of us feel like it should be like, and the adaptability feels like a great way to represent Leviathan.
A few standouts:
- I noted a few ways to get really consistent MWs. Our "Explodes" are amongst the deadliest and have said in the past that Toxicrene with a focus on MW would be strong. The damn thing now has a prevent fallback, AND an auto-explode, and a tonne of MWs while stuck in combat. Add its passable (not quite decent) damage, its a possibly viable option. With Fleshborers also exploding MWs in shooting, and Zoanthropes (using it on a Maleceptor works too) getting easier pushing for Super Smites, we can push respectable MW output as part of our strategy, even if the volume is a little low.
- that exploding 6s strategem is nuts. Getting Tesla on Devilgants is beyond crazy. The reviewer is hyped on HG, but I'm just hyperventilating on Devilgants. A unit that gets to shoot 90 shots, rerolling all hits, and every 6 is 3 hits - we're looking at close to 90 shots 90 hits, and forcing 30 saves on 3+ vs most tanks, assuming we didn't put a reroll 1s and 2s to wound on them. That's a strategem, a wlt, and a link- no overlaps. Assuming it's persistent, as is the fleshborer one, that's all of this SHOOT TWICE.
Genestealers benefit alot too, but they never really needed it anyway. Genestealers having the rerolls to woune is enough to get the job done.
- Trygons get a really nice buff from the Maleceptor. Can't think of anyone else but HG and Trygons with dxD damage. I guess HG benefit from this the most with their 6s to wound becoming -1ap more.
- Cp on 5+ is ok I guess. Nice to have more to work with, but we're used to rationing.
- cp change adaptation is also interesting, mildly. A unit of genestealers suddenly getting hydra, or Kraken, would be a big mess for people to deal with.
- Leviathan / Kronos armies are gonna be common. 2 units of HG with high consistency is extremely powerful, and not to mention, the psyker squash is real between Levi and Kronos together.
- I've already gushed about ignore invul BS with Murder Size.
- Leviathan is really shaping up well, as are warrior blobs that now don't even need a Prime.
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Post by windwalkerranger on Oct 16, 2021 0:49:50 GMT
Hello all. What do you think about -1 to wound relic Tervigon, perhaps backed up by dermic adaptive, and strategem for additional WLT to get the reroll-buff, to herd some termagants that can generate mortal wounds in shooting? Also, the strategems are so good that we'll need a lot of CP's... So probably no patrols attached, and genestealers for generating CP through character-killing + the cp generating relic? I normally find these very underwhelming, but maybe we need it now?
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Post by No One on Oct 16, 2021 2:07:36 GMT
- I noted a few ways to get really consistent MWs. Our "Explodes" are amongst the deadliest and have said in the past that Toxicrene with a focus on MW would be strong. The damn thing now has a prevent fallback, AND an auto-explode, and a tonne of MWs while stuck in combat. Add its passable (not quite decent) damage, its a possibly viable option. With Fleshborers also exploding MWs in shooting, and Zoanthropes (using it on a Maleceptor works too) getting easier pushing for Super Smites, we can push respectable MW output as part of our strategy, even if the volume is a little low. Eh, I think we can just murder everything the normal way. Explodes/hit buffs/rrs to hit with devilgants/stealers/HG. Based on the DWatch version, you can also swap custom. Only the one, but there's some interesting (albeit likely niche stuff there). Prey sight/besial nature for some extra damage with bracketed MCs (I've been running lash whips with the single slot relics, so this interests me). Sporemist gives you some mobility on a fall back for scoring stuff. Feeding frenzy/shrewd predators lets you do some neat stuff with pile in/consolidate. Also extra AP for stealers/horms.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 16, 2021 3:39:21 GMT
It makes Hormagants really nasty then. 30 man with tesla exploding rerolling 6s, MWs on 6s, reroll on 1s and 2s; now give them -2 on the charge, -3 even if I recall right, and they're a cheap pts (but a lot of cp) option to taking out enemy ground infantry.
May seem superfluous, but keep Devilgants for MC/vehicles, throw Hormagants for infantry, and mop up with Genestealers.
The key component to this, reroll hits and reroll wounds, is command phase- it makes things super congested in your deployment zone. That will be a thing we gotta watch out for.
The Trygon/Flyrant Links are a shame. I feel like they should have swapped them around. Likewise the Maleceptor is also a shame - two effects that don't coincide well with one another (the only weapon with reroll damage and ap on 6s that needs it is HG. No other multi-D weapon has the volume to use the 6s, nor the need for ap-4 or ap-5 really). It's like no matter what they do, they can't just give him cohesive or even fluff representative rules.
I am going to spend time thinking what other fringe stuff could come out though, especially with custom hive fleet traits being a thing.
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Post by No One on Oct 16, 2021 4:27:02 GMT
now give them -2 on the charge, -3 even if I recall right Unless you get double custom (which is possible, but DWatch only get the one, so...don't hold out hope) it's max -2 without jumping through more hoops (horm strat, custom for AP-1 scy tals). MW from? Also don't think terv's worth just for rr 2s, but even so (from reddit summary): Auto wound 6s from prime's probably better as well. But maybe not with the amount of explodes you'd probably get with full 6s fishing.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 16, 2021 8:16:16 GMT
now give them -2 on the charge, -3 even if I recall right Unless you get double custom (which is possible, but DWatch only get the one, so...don't hold out hope) it's max -2 without jumping through more hoops (horm strat, custom for AP-1 scy tals). MW from? Also don't think terv's worth just for rr 2s, but even so (from reddit summary): Auto wound 6s from prime's probably better as well. But maybe not with the amount of explodes you'd probably get with full 6s fishing. Misspoke - meant auto wound on 6s to hit. The rerolls of 1s and 2s didn't realize it was just ranged. My bad - and it wouldn't stack with since only 1 link per unit. So auto wound on 6s with exploding hits instead, since nothing helps wounding in the Fight phase. Need to check how this interacts with Behemoth (as in what I can do with Behemoth). Tervs might actually be super good for HG then. It's a toss up between Maleceptor or Tervigon for them- ap is useful enough, but not only on 6s to wound. Reroll damage is also pretty good- but I personally never had an issue with their damage profile unless I rolled a bunch of 1s. What I did have issues with though is wounding rolls of 1s and 2s, then into good save rolls, especially with Kronos HG exploding on the hits prior swinging the dice to a poor showing to compensate. Being very unsure about that Prime. 6s auto wound is great for Horma and Devilgants, primarily. But definitely feeling Horms with a turn of Kraken - take that SL Sling at full speed with a 6+++!! Or even getting that -3ap scytals, assuming it's legal! It's just really really really cp intensive. And Primes add literally nothing else to this, unless you bring a thick brick of warriors - then it gets fair value.
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