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Post by No One on Oct 16, 2021 8:45:36 GMT
Being very unsure about that Prime. 6s auto wound is great for Horma and Devilgants, primarily. But definitely feeling Horms with a turn of Kraken - take that SL Sling at full speed with a 6+++!! Or even getting that -3ap scytals, assuming it's legal! It's just really really really cp intensive. And Primes add literally nothing else to this, unless you bring a thick brick of warriors - then it gets fair value. I'm thinking you'll probably want a Char protected HQ for rrs WLT, which...well, 'mal might actually be the play there, though I'd been thinking BL or prime. I think BL edges it out though with shadows+combat+psychic. Prime is the nice cheap option that also helps out melee. And yeah, apparently melee only, or else it'd be disgusting on devilgants. Something else to bear in mind is the warrior +1 to hit: terv does beat it out as a buff (assuming wounding on 3s or worse), but only by 11%. So really bad considering the cost difference: unless you can get some serious value from the terv in general, just seems pretty meh still. Maybe with all the stuff for devilgants/gants, run some 30 blobs (straight or mixed) but not sold. And yeah, CP looks to be a massive issue.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 16, 2021 9:37:07 GMT
Being very unsure about that Prime. 6s auto wound is great for Horma and Devilgants, primarily. But definitely feeling Horms with a turn of Kraken - take that SL Sling at full speed with a 6+++!! Or even getting that -3ap scytals, assuming it's legal! It's just really really really cp intensive. And Primes add literally nothing else to this, unless you bring a thick brick of warriors - then it gets fair value. I'm thinking you'll probably want a Char protected HQ for rrs WLT, which...well, 'mal might actually be the play there, though I'd been thinking BL or prime. I think BL edges it out though with shadows+combat+psychic. Prime is the nice cheap option that also helps out melee. And yeah, apparently melee only, or else it'd be disgusting on devilgants. Something else to bear in mind is the warrior +1 to hit: terv does beat it out as a buff (assuming wounding on 3s or worse), but only by 11%. So really bad considering the cost difference: unless you can get some serious value from the terv in general, just seems pretty meh still. Maybe with all the stuff for devilgants/gants, run some 30 blobs (straight or mixed) but not sold. And yeah, CP looks to be a massive issue. If the Prime's buff is only in melee, then he's not really worth bringing. While Genestealers and Hormagants both benefit pretty big from it, you really only benefit massively as leviathan, and that's really difficult to get into combat where you want that combat to be even with SL. Unless I was running warrior centric to begin with, I probably wouldnt consider it at all. I ran a few theorycrafted lists back in 2019 for Tervigon with -1 to hit for a couple of massive Gant blobs, back when daisy chaining objectives and old coherency rules was a thing. We all know Leviathan best supports mass Gants/Gaunts; the 6+++ has the greatest value on them than anything else in codex. Carrying Venomthropes/Malanthropes, a Maleceptor, and the Tervigon with the relic for -1 to wound makes Melta wound it on 6s, and Lascannons on 5+; it's a LOT of damage reduction in one go. Assuming we dropped the Maleceptor, it's still wounding on 4+ for lascannons, and if they take it down, you just pass reroll hits to another character instead, so you dont lose the core functionality of the list, and you create a stupid fire magnet that people WANT to shoot at, but cant quite kill off even if they did. If Tervigon was around 160pts instead, it would be the sweet spot of everything - but because of that (as in I am evaluating it as if it's somewhat cheaper it'd be great, it must be usable now), I think that its' play has functionality and some gears turning, just not well lubricated and definitely not broken, but quite possibly viable. As for why a Terv instead of Warriors +1 to hit: our HG are consistently shooting on a 3+ rr1 at current Kronos setup. Getting the warriors for +1 would improve our damage output marginally, as it turns 10 hits into 11 hits. But we're not usually shooting into T4; so we're usually wounding 3+ with no rerolls, and on some occasions have to deal with T8 as well. So at 3+/4+ rr1s and 2s, I think the damage increase is relatively bigger than the +1 to hit, more so than just a 10% increase. Ideally I'd have liked the ap-1 from Maleceptor to be flat instead of proc, but eh... cant have everything. At the top of my head, I think a very consistent list might be Kronos/Leviathan 12 HG with Maleceptor/Tervigon support respectively, Zoanthropes to move MWs, SL and a Toxi for funny things, a Flyrant with Murder Size and Ignore Invul just in case, then a 30x Horma for sling tactics, and fill with Gaunts. Can afford to drop the SL, Toxi, and Horma just to fill a devilgant, more gants, Malanthrope. Just keep outputting MWs and HG to shell and do damage to the enemy, and Gants to score and take up space all day long. Not the type of game I like to play, but it should do a lot of work and is relatively well protected, except vs Ork Rukkatrukks. Filing that to the back of my head, because it's not quite the type of game I want to play. Something else that's interesting - Zoanthropes supporting Neurothropes that are supporting Zoanthropes. Neuro with the psychich barb relic getting +1, getting a 3d6 on his cast, and rr1s; pretty good at scoring Super Smites, you'd hope. Zoanthropes continue doing their own thing with 3+d3 normal and rr1s from Neurothropes. I have a few more ideas mulling about in the back of my head somewhere, but I'm completely knackered and need a short nap... will come back to it once rested.
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Post by No One on Oct 16, 2021 10:33:29 GMT
you just pass reroll hits to another character instead I'm not sure about this: it says it can't be the same as another WLT in your army. Which...army is your roster+summons, so pretty sure it would rule it out RAW. RAI...I'm not sure if that's supposed to stop you doubling up on table, or doubling up at all: considering the former can never happen at the moment, I'm not sure but leaning towards the latter? Not sure about other ones. Edit: Mentioned it to someone whose rule opinion I trust, said it seemed fine. Just something to bear in mind. OK, so: +1 to hit is better than rr 1s to wound (11.7 hits vs 9.3 wounds, then 9.7 vs 9.1 wounds into T4). This is simple to see when you consider dice: warriors make 1 dice face better by being a success, terv makes '1' dice face being better by a reroll (rather than a success). Of course, once you get into rr 1s and 2s terv is better, just not by much, 7.8 vs 8.3. This improves with exploding 6s, since you can then have more wound rolls to make use of the rr than hit rolls to use the +1, but it doesn't change the trend or the numbers by much. That's fair: I've been playing 12 HG already and enjoying it, but I can definitely see why some people wouldn't. It can be pretty disgusting. Reminder we can give zoans ob sec now: that alone makes them seem a lot more appealing.
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Post by No One on Oct 16, 2021 11:27:23 GMT
Need to check how this interacts with Behemoth (as in what I can do with Behemoth). SoT with +1 to hit from warriors. I don't think there's really much else though: warriors buff great, BL/prime exists if you're bringing them anyway (but otherwise eh), everything else seems fairly unhelpful.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 16, 2021 19:09:57 GMT
That's fair: I've been playing 12 HG already and enjoying it, but I can definitely see why some people wouldn't. It can be pretty disgusting. Reminder we can give zoans ob sec now: that alone makes them seem a lot more appealing. I ran 18 to a competitive event years ago, and it's just... not the kind of game that's fun to play. It's pretty static and has only 1 game plan, and anything that throws that gameplan off a bit can have some actually pretty big impacts and can quickly snowball out of control. 3-6 Rukkatrucks feels like something that would just make things spiral out of control pretty fast. 12 is not so bad and gives you points to do other stuff at least. Like I said, it's going to be a competitive staple probably, as it's pretty consistent. I'm not sure about how much we can afford it with 1 Kronos 1 Leviathan, but it definitely feels like that's how many people will want to play it just so that we can have the consistent Full Reroll with possibly reroll damage on side A, and 2+ rr1s exploding 6s on side B. (obv we can get exploding 6s on side A too if you're burning the reroll there already, and can mirror it for 2+ rerolling instead of damage rolls. I just... I just hate it and think there are better options than just more HG buffs.) The Zoans Obsec is a big deal and one of the big turn ons for me with them. They were already our premierre ground holding unit - being able to decide in your Command Phase whether you want it to be ObSec for a battle-round or not is huge. Really dont even care about the Shoot and Action thing since... the only unit in our codex that may do that are Warriors who are sitting on blocks already. But this strategem is actually REALLY strong on Warriors since it lets them benefit from the tri-fecta of Obsec, MORW OBSEC, and Actions while Shoot! I see your maths on the Wound/Hit thing, and although I dont fully get how the numbers came out or shake out, the cost differential I agree with you is too big. For how much we'd get out of that big block of warriors, or even a min unit just for it, it's just nuts compared to how hard it is to squeeze value out of the tervigon. With a bit of a change and a big price discount on the Terv, maybe, but it's a shelf option for now sadly. That thing about behemoth - it blows. Blows so hard. There's so little we can use there for Behemoth - I've had a very successful run for Behemoth these past 2 years, and I'm finally ready to let go and move onto another archetype lol. Also, I was just so dissatisfied with the inability to fall back and charge on Genestealers, hahaha. The +1 to wound is still great though, it was key to most of my successes. But yea it just doesnt seem like the new rules can support the SOT very well, and with a new slew of decent relics I think... it's time to change the gameplan, SOT just takes too much design space to get it out there. Just really quickly on BS for 2k: Leviathan Battalion: HQ - Broodlord: Shadows Link, WLT: Rerolls, Relic: Resonance Barb, Spells: Horror - Swarmlord: Spells: Onslaught, Catalyst - Flyssassin: WL (Adaptation: Murder Size), Bonesword, Relic: Ignore Invuls, Spells: Paroxysm, Psychic Scream Troops - 1x9 Warrior blob: Deathspitters + LWBS, VC+BS, Adaptation: ER, Accuracy Link - 1x30 Devourer Gaunts - 1x 3 Rippers Elites - 1x6 HG - 1x6 Zoeys: Caster Link - 2x1 Lictors Fast Attack - 1x30 Gargoyles Not quite as much as I'd like - the Gargs and Zoeys took a lot out of my list, which I wanted a Toxicrene and Mawloc in there for the MW security. The Warrior blob is also a lot more expensive than expected - but that's to be expected. He's getting a lot of defensive stuff thrown his way, so high cost is expected. If I reduce the Warrior Blob down to a smaller one, which is more supportive/tanky scorer, that probably works too. Also if running Warriors, running Zoeys for a similar reason is probably a waste, but I like big MW numbers so I want them staying in. The gargoyles are the surprise tech - I doubt anyone is expecting them to be anything more than a road bump. But these little buggers are going to get moved up with reroll to hit everything and BL Link possibly, thrown up to someone's face, then unload with 30 reroll to hit with Tesla; eating a 4+ or 3+ to wound, with each 6 becoming a Mortal Wound. And, and, assuming this works, and they actually left a lot of stuff that's vulnerable to that, you double shoot them for 12MWs and a LOT of S4 saves. But without some form of double move ability, how will they get within the required 12" range? I thought of double moving them until the point I realized SL doesnt actually... allow you to shoot if you double move. So no point doing Gargoyles if we're doing that. Better to just play it cool and not have a SL, which opens up points. 240 pts helps us buy either a Neurothrope for those Zoeys and a lot more troops, or a Prime to buff those warriors. Possibly a Neurothrope then 3 Biovores for a very finicky 3+ MW strategy (not bought yet in it but... maybe in a more concerted list concept), or somehow open up that Kronos detachment for more guns. Or just another Flyrant for... some reason. Or shift things into a 2x5 Zoanthropes like I used to run. I dunno. What I do know though is that Genestealers, Toxicrenes, and Hormagants, which are all units I think benefit greatly from this book, need a Swarmlord to activate, so without SL, there's not a strong point to bringing them. Maybe it would be still better to keep the SL, and replace the Gargs with Horms or a Toxicrene and more expendable troops?
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Post by No One on Oct 17, 2021 1:39:04 GMT
I ran 18 to a competitive event years ago, and it's just... not the kind of game that's fun to play. It's pretty static and has only 1 game plan, and anything that throws that gameplan off a bit can have some actually pretty big impacts and can quickly snowball out of control. 3-6 Rukkatrucks feels like something that would just make things spiral out of control pretty fast. 12 is not so bad and gives you points to do other stuff at least. Like I said, it's going to be a competitive staple probably, as it's pretty consistent. I'm not sure about how much we can afford it with 1 Kronos 1 Leviathan, but it definitely feels like that's how many people will want to play it just so that we can have the consistent Full Reroll with possibly reroll damage on side A, and 2+ rr1s exploding 6s on side B. (obv we can get exploding 6s on side A too if you're burning the reroll there already, and can mirror it for 2+ rerolling instead of damage rolls. I just... I just hate it and think there are better options than just more HG buffs.) Yeah, I definitely think there's going to be a fair few possible builds here, 12 HG are just definitely one of them. 18 though? Yeah no. That's basically a 'kill your opponent T2 or lose' sort of list. 12 has a lot more ability to play other games (I've had 2 games were I lost a unit/most of a unit T1, one the first and maybe could've won the 2nd with perfect play and a bit more luck: but it was Orks, so I'm pretty OK with just putting up a good fight going 2nd). Squigbuggies aren't too bad: you need a full 6 dumping all of the main gun into the squad (assuming cover, but it'd be similar without), and they don't even kill on average. Considering you'll often want them proccing the freebooterz chain...Now, dakkajets on the other hand...one buffed dakkajet almost wipes a unit. Actions while shoot is...well, it's nice to have it in the back pocket to e.g. final RoD with HG and still shoot I guess? +1 to hit . Legitimately I'm thinking of still running Behemoth just for SoT and Orks. Dunno, all of that seems reasonable. Except the biovores, definitely not a fan there. One thing to note with the gargs is that, esp with full rrs, you could probably get there OK with just onslaught. Maybe not good enough though even still. Also without Swarmlord super flyrant drops in value as well: not as much as everything else, but still. I dunno: part of the reason for me still on 12 hive guard is then I don't need to think too hard about massive sweeping list changes, and more just list optimisations .
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Post by tomb on Oct 17, 2021 8:12:46 GMT
Some excellent thinking here both. It's great to read about potential uses for units that we haven't seen on the table for a while. I'd love to have a good reason to get Gargs on the table again. Could the new redeploy WL trait help with this? As for the Toxicrene, I loved the model, I've had one for years but I've never played it, the idea of it being a roadblock or slung out to tag is very interesting.
Thanks for the work you both put in to unlock our new possibilities. I have a GT the weekend after the Goonhammer Major, I'd be happy to to take a list of 'the new stuff' to test it then if it helps.
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Post by No One on Oct 17, 2021 8:27:48 GMT
I'd love to have a good reason to get Gargs on the table again. The ability to just go 'hey, you have obsec: move 24+" with Fly' is definitely an interesting proposition for them. Not sold on the fleshborer play: it's definitely not terrible, but seems too awkward and CP intensive to connect to be any better than devilgants. Does the ability to flex obsec with high mobility make it better/viable? Eh? Probably not. New WLT is really good, since you can just deploy on the line and then either bounce back or into strat reserve (or push up to the line depending on what you want where). Is this something that's a T1 play? I don't think so: it's got the reach to reach DZ with advance, but you'd think any competent opponent isn't going to put anything worth shooting at on the line in LoS. Interesting for devilgants, since you could stick on the line if they deploy aggressive, and then either advance up or bounce into strat reserve: I don't think that's going to be viable, but it's the sort of thing you're doing something with anyway. Mostly just a 'stick devilgants in strat reserve for free' and 'more distance for a Swarmy sling'.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 17, 2021 11:02:20 GMT
tomb I think its really hard to use the Fleshborer gimmick - it's powerful for sure, but without double move you can't use it as a targeted tool. I think it will be strong using it when going 2nd, basically getting up in range to blow the enemy's obsec or forward units apart, or fending off close range Infiltrators that are trying to move block you or crowd your map side. Very defensive play. But for defensive play I think Fleshborer Gants are fine enough, and Gargs need to be used aggressively to make their cost up. Having it as a flexible tool is probably fine. For Obsec stealing though. I'm still pretty on for Hormagants as cheap damage option. They punch up almost as good as stock devs will with the Prime and Reroll. Toxicrene has been a thing since forever that I wanted to do - but it didn't output well and dies quickly to everything, plus I didn't have midfield hide spots to use SL so I could only Sling large units with daisy chain. With mid terrain, a Toxi is quite usable in this fashion, and would screw congested areas well. Keep in mind that you MW before Catalyst fnp so you can do more damage every wound you save, and auto explode for 3MW to everything around you is so ace. He's our best MW generating unit in the codex so, it's good to put him to work finally. I have to finish my botched mag job...
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 17, 2021 13:54:22 GMT
OK, so I have a list that's very similar to my SL Behemoth list - but a few key differences is that I had to give up the Flyrants to make enough points for other tools I want to try. Also starting on 6cp I think (could be more, might have messed up calcs), so it's extremely cp hungry. I'll have to see how to fix this. But the general idea is to play cagey, setup near mid, send 1 or 2 units up to grab quarters/ROD, and have a 3 turn layered charge while Kronos HG output damage without cp support the 2cp you save from making everything Leviathan doesnt help because the main damage output tools are already super strapped/congested in queue).
Leviathan Batt HQ - Prime(WL): Double ScyTals, RLC: 5+ CP, WLT: Reroll Hits, S.Lk: Melee Autwound - SL - Broodlord: RLC: Reso Barb, S.Lk: Better RG
Troops - 20 Genestealers with bells and whistles - 30 Hormagants - 1x5 Warriors: DS + LWBS / VC + BS, ADPT- ER, S.Lk: Hit Better - 30 Devilgants - 20 Boregants
Elites - 2x Lictors (can shift 1 for Kronos strat)
HS - Toxicrene
Kronos Patrol HQ - Neurothrope: RLC- New Crown
Troops - 1x3 Rippers
Elite - 1x6 HG
--------------------------------------------------------------
Pretty sure the flow is obvious - T1 SL tosses Toxi or Hormas into the midfield/enemy lines to either kill off some frontline shock absorbers or ObSec units, or to tie up big sprawling units that have issues moving around. T2 Send up the other, establish the board quarters for EOAF, and sit things on objectives to score. T3 the Genestealers get sent in, and SL himself gets to work. Neuro does Psychic Ritual and gets Symbiostorm on the HG if he can (if that kind of range is not possible, can swap BL for that relic, and save 2cp for 3rd relic), while Warriors get set up into midfield with Prime + BL's buff, and hand their buff to whoever is shooting fowards. It should max score if not nearly max score my secondaries, and score a min of 10 on Primaries even until T5.
Few things I'm not happy with:
1. I dont like the 20 man Boregants, as I like my full 30s. Freebooterz Planes+buggies is going to be my meta's no.1 crasher, as it's also piloted by the "best player" (description, not sarcasm) in my small meta. Giving 10 mens or easy to kill units, especially early on, is going to be rough with 3+ Dakkajets (36-42 shots each, 1 plane has MORE with MORE DAKKA upgrade mekjob), then something like 18 or 20+ per Scrapjet, then 3d6 shots from Squigbuggies; it's easily 300 dice in that Speedwaagh turn, and will decimate my army completely without trying. Bringing small units lets them stack Freebooterz buff to not only shoot on 4+, but also negate any Venomthrope effects, earlier than necessary.
2. Only 1 long range shooting unit, and limited ways of dealing with Planes and Buggies - our damage is not that great vs Buggies unless you get that max Genestealer squad into the buggies (and pray), but Buggies overwatch will also quite possibly destroy that Genestealer unit before it gets into range. Since Orkz only have 1 way to access Fall Back and Shoot (and it's in a non-favoured Kult), tagging them with huge units of Hormagants or something may actually work well (12A half and 2s; so 6hits, 5W, 5 Dead Hormies, maybe 3 or 4 dead Genestealers). But Fliers I have no answer to, especially without a Flyrant in the list (had to take it out to get the auto-wound in, and there's no space unless I do not take Prime/Warriors, and that leaves me an S.Lk down since there's no good 3rd option in my list; or I play 3 Zoanthropes instead of a Toxicrene. A few variations, of course it's a give and take situation. The AdM and Ork Flierz are actually a threat; the AdM ones because they can easily manuveur to get 2? 4? (each gun is 2 shots, and I think they have 2 of those guns) lascannons and something like 12 anti-infantry shots at super high consistency as always, and the Ork ones because 42 dice of S6 ap-2 or ap-3 1D each on possibly 4+ to hit.
3. CP. CP. CP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by No One on Oct 17, 2021 15:38:31 GMT
I like it as a TAC list: very much not sold on the new psychic relic for 2 CP, I don't think the ability to ritual and symbio is worth it, and is probably too awkward to work as well. Toxi...seems decent at least, try it out and see. Only other comment is I think a 20 stealer is overkill: what you could do with it...I was going to suggest warriors for the HG, but you're at your cap there.
In specifics to facing Orks though? You've got no answer to planes except HG and double tapping devilgants with strat (which does work fairly well admittedly), and limited answers to...well, everything else. Orks have a disgusting amount of anti-infantry, and while the stealers can murder whatever they charge even through overwatch, you can't really survive the return firepower for tagging (outside squigbuggies). Maybe if you can kill the scrapjets and tag the squigbuggies/warbkikers and/or hostage? But you just die if you go 2nd, and I think you still just die even if you play perfectly going 1st.
More HG is OK, gives you answers going 1st or maybe 2nd (depends on priority), devilgants can murder a thing or 2, but too late/easy to kill for more than 1 I think. Though 2 does seem appealing even as TAC I think. Flyrant though I think is definitely something to strongly consider: Behemoth+Leviathan (because SoT and massive stacked buffs is a really good buggy/plane murderer. As long as you can make combat and they don't have a mek/wazzbom in range anyway...) feels like it could be 'optimal' on that front, but just seems super awkward to actually fit together, because then you need Behemoth Swarmy, and you don't have that much support for shooting beyond devilgants/CP intensive stuff. Behemoth+Kronos+GSC (my prev list spitball) still feels like it might be the best anti-Ork, but...well, definitely not TAC with the new stuff. Running flyrant in Levi is...maybe enough though? I dunno: you do ignore the 5++ with the boneswords and can still get exploding 6s (and the good kind), but losing S8 sucks into ramshackle. Feels like it's generally more reasonable though, and definitely easier to put together.
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Post by Kitane on Oct 17, 2021 22:30:09 GMT
Question: how do Raveners stack up to Hormagaunts as objective stealers now that we have the Obsec stratagem? They don't really have to start in deep strike and they easily outrun hormagaunts with base M12". 3 raveners cost 60 points just like 10 hormagaunts, are considerably faster, have better offense and defense and if used with Metabolic Advance, they will likely not even a lose model even as a full sized unit
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Post by No One on Oct 18, 2021 1:42:02 GMT
I dunno: they seem fine, but you're spending CP for something you can basically just have anyway (with horms) or competing with gargs for hard to reach objectives, since Fly. More durability and output, but not enough to make up the difference from those choices I don't think.
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Post by zimko on Oct 18, 2021 4:13:47 GMT
For the Ork problem (or for aircraft in general) I'm thinking of using a Barbed Hierodule. Give it +1 to hit, exploding 6s and +1 damage on turn 1 and it can easily kill an aircraft. Possibly 2 aircraft if you risk split firing.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 18, 2021 4:42:08 GMT
For the Ork problem (or for aircraft in general) I'm thinking of using a Barbed Hierodule. Give it +1 to hit, exploding 6s and +1 damage on turn 1 and it can easily kill an aircraft. Possibly 2 aircraft if you risk split firing. Coincidentally I was working out a build with Barbed Heirodule last night, but we would definitely have to drop a lot of tools for it. Honestly if we're going to play Heirodules, might want to consider sticking to other fleets, since all the tools need to stack to make it work for many of the smaller units, not many left for the Heirodule to work independently. The +1 can be gotten from any fleet after all. But one thing that makes it possibly really good for is taking out buggies - flat 3, 12 shots with exploding may take out 3 buggies? I'll test it out this weekend. The fact it bypasses ramshackle is a big deal IMO (and exo starts getting edged out...) Fun fact: devilgants with exploding hits only will nearly down a plane. Shoot Twice to nearly down two planes. With a +1 to hit Barbed, a exploding shoot twice devilgants dropping from the sky, and Kronos HG, feels like we can have a decent pushback vs these Orks.
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