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Post by almostmercury on Feb 20, 2018 21:38:32 GMT
Also, I have yet to factor in forewarn in retaliation before you shoot, which certainly applies to warriors and dev gaunts.
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 21, 2018 3:43:25 GMT
All very good points almostmercury. Thanks for the food for thought - now i need to dissect the table. Tables carry over terribly in this forum format. One thing I'd like to note - HG are a given. There should be 6 in ANY competitive Tyranid list. The question is now do i bring more in a tunnel, or do i bring Devilgants in the tunnel, or do i not bring any more things and just stick the existing 6 in a tunnel (which is what i dont like the sound of, since there may actually be more pressing things you need to deal with). Ref Warriors - that unit is toast the moment it hits the table. Warriors are literally the best target for Reapers damage profile (IIRC S8 3dam? For the 2nd mode of firing), you just gave them free 4 points for gangbuster. Not the best solution I've heard tbh. The most reliable so far has been Genestealer Sling up the table or mass Flyrants for the raw tankability. Such a stupid unit.
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Post by almostmercury on Feb 21, 2018 4:10:35 GMT
Yeah, the table was formatted on a computer. It blows on my phone.
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 27, 2018 13:12:43 GMT
Ok, next tournament rulespack is out. Find as attached: drive.google.com/file/d/1fcEuDDChm2E1aUfotIJDztaFW6BhiaiJ/viewFirst thing in mind - the objective placements is WAAAAAY better than the previous one. No more gunline sitting back and just showering shots. Scoring is mostly based on control of enemy or number of objectives - so, mobility is only part factor, durability is a much more important factor. Every turn they survive, its more points generated for you. There's one mission where you score 4 vp per obj controlled in enemy deployment at the end of game, and another where you can choose to raze the enemys objectives for 3vp and remove them. So having hard to break deployment zone control is very important - 60 gants with Tervigon backing should do it well enough, so I'll get to test inControls list finally. Next, being able to break in their deployment zone when i want/need to is very key. Two units of genestealers should do the trick, either in behemoth coming in with Trygons or Kraken and basically sweeping the no mans land until its time to strike. There's no beta smite either... which is cool. I may build around zoey spam.
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Post by No One on Feb 27, 2018 13:34:27 GMT
First thing in mind - the objective placements is WAAAAAY better than the previous one. No more gunline sitting back and just showering shots. *Objective placement after choosing sides/deployment* That's better than previous? Ouch. Neuro/magus spam with oodles of gants plus neos/acos+primus (assuming ob sec works on theirs?) for stealing? Or just some form of purestrain/stealer bomb with HG/gaunts for your DZ?
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 27, 2018 14:20:36 GMT
First thing in mind - the objective placements is WAAAAAY better than the previous one. No more gunline sitting back and just showering shots. *Objective placement after choosing sides/deployment* That's better than previous? Ouch. Neuro/magus spam with oodles of gants plus neos/acos+primus (assuming ob sec works on theirs?) for stealing? Or just some form of purestrain/stealer bomb with HG/gaunts for your DZ? Previously, you picked deployment then placed 3 objectives wherever you liked. This meant you could easily fortify your gunline corner and never budge, which were the hardest armies to shift. But previously it was pure maelstrom so scoring was not wholly centered around objectives, so it wasnt stupidly broken - it was just stupid. In this round, 1 objective is placed in your own deployment, 1 in the enemies, and 1 in no mans land - even if you decide where to place after choosing sides, you cant skew it heavily because the opponent also places one in your zone counter to your plan, and they're both worth the same. It is definitely an upgrade to the previous 3 objectives as far back in my own deployment as feasibly possible and a full stretch of no mans land. As for strategy - oodles of Termagants could work. Run the termies as Kraken for Tervigon -2 to Hit, maybe run some Hormagants as Kraken or Hydra to just annoy people to death. One of the missions features 1vp per character killed and the other 1vp per unit, so spamming Magii is not a feasible thing, they give away points way too easily IMO. They're not tanky like Neuros.may do it for the 2 base spells though. The easiest one would be 2/3 stealer bombs, HG + Biovores fire support, Swarmlord to launch, and oodles of Termagants and Tervigon for DZ and neutral ground. GSC if i can fit. Its a tight fit though - off top if my head there isnt enough points for it. I'm not fond of stealers without Swarmlord, they have been ok but too susceptible to just getting rekt without doing anything or being kinda useless due to enemy being too far away. The alternative in mind is 2 or 3 Zoey units, backed by Flyrants and Neurothropes. Support with HG and some big Neophyte blobs, if can squeeze in maybe a rupturefex. Maybe play with Patriarchs and melee Flyrants here. Swarming objectives, blocking objectives, and stealing uncontested objectives are pretty much the keys to victory here. A lot of singular character units, but they're all pretty tough to kill all things considering.
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Post by kazetanade on Apr 11, 2018 19:11:37 GMT
New tournament - its the same objective rulespack as the previous one. I didnt get to play in the above one, but I've signed up for the one end of this month.
The catch - I'm going with AM instead of Nids, because I want to abuse the Obsec of Leman Russes and really cheap brigade for oodles of CP. At first I thought the AM had meh strategems, but after further analysis we found some really good combinations we could use - although it's not as powerful as Attack Twice, Shoot Twice, Double Advance, there's a lot more variety and much cheaper.
In quick summary:
Cadian Brigade
HQs 2 x Company Commander; Relics - Aquila, Laurel of Command 1 x Psyker; Relics - Relic of Cadia
Troops 6 x 10 Infantry Squad
Elites 3 x 5 Ratlings
FA 3 x 1 Scout Sentinels
HS 3 x 1 Mortars
Cadian Spearhead HQs 1 x Pask
HS 1 x Battle Cannon LR 2 x Punisher Cannon LRs
Vostroyan Auxiliary Super Heavy Detachment 1 x Hellhammer
Points may be a bit off but that's the gist of it. Hellhammer gets +1 to Hit for being Vostroyan, able to take out elites and such. The entire Cadian regiment can benefit from Overlapping Fields of Fire on whatever the target is, with rerolling hits on all the mortars. The BattleCannon LRs sit on the home objective lobbing scores at the enemy, and Pask either moves with the 2 Punishers to get one of them reroll 1s on constant movement OR he stays with the BC to maintain 2 rerollable 2D6 Shot platforms. Use 1 or 2 of the Infantry Squads consolidating up to form the frontline marching tool, and keep replenishing it with +1 save and Take Cover! while also consolidating new squads into it if they get a bit depleted/ignored. Eventuall it'll be just a big blob of infantry that can benefit from the durability buff and morale ignore. Hellhammer moves up and basically tries to charge the enemy or be a general nuisance to the enemy with its decent shooting and its fearsome melee. Short of focusing it down immediately, I forsee it being a really dangerous aspect of the army and if it's damaged to the point of being in danger, I could stack the -1 and Smoke on it to make it really hard to finish off.
I want to find points to include a Chimera here and use it as a Command Chimera for max range orders and giving the Hellhammer as much cover save as possible (giving the 50% obscured condition, then finding some cover to use after).
I'll update the first and 2nd posts with the list formatted and any updates to the list, as well as the building parameters for this list for people to digest sometime in the future.
I was going to run Tyranids, but after winning a game last week vs Custodes where I said "IF I WIN THIS GAME, I'M PLAYING AM FOR THE TOURNAMENT", I decided to go through with it. In all fairness I was expecting to lose because I brought highly ineffective guns to deal with Custodes, but I managed to snatch a victory from defeat when a good smite went off and the Devourers finally broke through the 2+ saves and downed the tiny unit holding the only objective on my part of the table. So... I'm playing AM this month. Next month when the FAQ is finally out I'll be back to Nids, and maybe T'au the month after for kicks.
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Post by No One on Apr 13, 2018 8:34:20 GMT
At first I thought the AM had meh strategems, but after further analysis we found some really good combinations we could use - although it's not as powerful as Attack Twice, Shoot Twice, Double Advance, there's a lot more variety and much cheaper. They've got a few good strats, but most of those aren't ubiquitous i.e. you use them once or twice a game. The exceptions are Cadian/Vostrayan, which often aren't run in favour of Catachan. Think it looks fine: 3x3 mortars though, no? I don't think laurels is worth it (provided I'm remembering laurels right...): 2 CP for an extra order (i.e. 20/30 pts equivalent)? Hard pass. I'd check lost cadia as well, since it might be Officer only (I know most of them are). Depending on how the pts actually work out, probably worth trying to squeeze some plasma into the inf squads, especially if you're running them defensively with consolidate squads. Ref hellhammer: I'd probably put nightshroud on it from the get go. If you're running it into the enemy, it's pretty much something that they have to deal with: that way, you're maximising the amount of damage it can draw. Also, otherwise you're protecting the (max) 100 pt unit vs the ~400-500 pt unit . Actually...speaking of psychic powers, astropath instead of one of the ratling squads. ~20 pts for a full power/deny is still crazy good: that gives you both barrier and nightshroud. Nightshroud the baneblade, bar the inf squads.
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Post by kazetanade on Apr 13, 2018 10:51:07 GMT
I like Catachans reroll D6, but I'm not playing anything that needs it. 3D6 on the Hellhammer says Catachans bonus is not that great, and +1 Hit Vostroyan is legit. Cadias order is reroll the top gun D6 as is.
Laurels is +1 order effect per order you make(on a 4+ ofc); its the only way to stack 2+ orders on a single unit, on multiple units.
I'm looking to use Consolidate Squads to take better use of Barrier to stack a +3 in cover, and Nightshroud for the Hellhammer with its smoke.
Also looking at Command Chimera, although i may have misunderstood it. I thought it gave him 18" orders but i think the infantry squads need vox too.
It is 3 x 3 mortars yes.
I want ratlings to create space though. Maybe 2 might be enough and i can squeeze points to bring a 3rd cc instead of primaris and i can pretend maguses are astropaths.
Sentinels are free points though I'm not sure if they pull weight.
Ref plasma - I'm not sure. Maybe if i can find the points but 4+ to hit plasma doesnt insttill much confidence in me. Right now I'm maxed points.
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Post by No One on Apr 13, 2018 11:30:19 GMT
I like Catachans reroll D6, but I'm not playing anything that needs it. 3D6 on the Hellhammer says Catachans bonus is not that great, and +1 Hit Vostroyan is legit. Cadias order is reroll the top gun D6 as is. Oh, I totally agree that Cadia is a viable alternative and Cadian/Vostroyan offers more for you. I just mostly see Catachan for rerolls on artillery etc. Ah, had forgotten about that one. Better: still don't think it's worth 2 CP (it's not like you get crazy benefits from any double orders, standing still with FRF!SRF! and rerolls aside I guess), but at least gives you something good. Just, you know, you've only got stock infantry squads (and mortars) to order, and you'd usually basically just be getting reroll 1s out of it on a single squad: not a huge increase for 2 CP. Even with 13 CP and fishing, you're likely to be using quite a few CP with both Cadian and Vostroyan strats, on top of the more niche things like defensive gunners. Also, primaris can't take relic of lost cadia: it's <Cadian>, and primaris doesn't have <Regiment> to replace. So unless you want to do some more serious shuffling around to get a third CC, it's either or anyway... Definitely astropath then: primaris knows 2, casts 1. Yeah, the ordered unit would need a vox too for 18" orders. So you'd be paying 100 pts and 1 CP per turn to protect a cc for 2 orders (and it also wouldn't let you use grand strategist, so you couldn't even use it to protect WL usefully). Eh. Hellhounds look nice, and for 7 pts you don't really care if it's BS 4+ . But if you're maxed points, I don't think there's much you could drop. You could fiddle with ratlings/astropath/primaris, but I don't think that saves you much, and is probably not worth it beyond just swapping for a single astropath.
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Post by kazetanade on Apr 13, 2018 11:50:03 GMT
Yea definitely dropping the Primaris for another cc and try a ratling for a Astropath; maybe can squeeze the 2nd Astropath.
Laurels of Command lets you roll to make multiple orders *every time you issue an order*. That's an infinite chain that stacks on itself. That could be a unit of 20 men that is FRFSRF with full rerolls hit and reroll 1s to wound. For my Mortars at least it is full rerolls hit and reroll 1s wound when it works. Its actually a super good relic just not consistent.
I'm intending to also use Crush Them! And Defensive Gunners pretty much every turn. The hellhammer is going to be hella scary when its in your face.
May ditch the sentinels if i find there's soo much cp. Bring in better guns for sure.
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Post by No One on Apr 13, 2018 12:05:26 GMT
I'm intending to also use Crush Them! And Defensive Gunners pretty much every turn. The hellhammer is going to be hella scary when its in your face. They're good strats to use whenever you've got the opportunity. You're very unlikely to have the opportunity to use them every turn, unlike Cadian/Vostrayan/reroll (at least until the hellhammer's dead). Nah, no way 7 CP is going to be enough to feed Cadian/Vostrayan strats on top of everything else. Still sceptical you'll get more there than another 2 CP elsewhere (i.e. another +1 cadian shooting phase). *Shrug* depends on how your CP expenditures go: if you've got to T4 and still have CP, then yeah, sounds good.
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Post by kazetanade on Apr 13, 2018 21:53:39 GMT
I'm intending to also use Crush Them! And Defensive Gunners pretty much every turn. The hellhammer is going to be hella scary when its in your face. They're good strats to use whenever you've got the opportunity. You're very unlikely to have the opportunity to use them every turn, unlike Cadian/Vostrayan/reroll (at least until the hellhammer's dead). Nah, no way 7 CP is going to be enough to feed Cadian/Vostrayan strats on top of everything else. Still sceptical you'll get more there than another 2 CP elsewhere (i.e. another +1 cadian shooting phase). *Shrug* depends on how your CP expenditures go: if you've got to T4 and still have CP, then yeah, sounds good. Some trial runs are necessary. Having the ability to stack Reroll all Hits and Reroll wounds of 1 to all my mortars, or FRFSRF + reroll hit + reroll wounds of to 2-3 units of Infantry squads (especially if I get Plasma in there) would be very powerful. It's the fact that it can be done for every unit given an order by that CC that I like. Still, its not like I cant work without it. The amount of strategems I intend to use cant be fueled by just base strategems, I'd be relying alot on Fishing to maintain my cp levels. If you stack Vostroyan + Cadian every turn, then Take Cover, Crush Them/Defensive Gunners, Consolidate, Ignore Morale, I cant remember anymore off the top of my head, but even just that amount I think you're looking at like 6 or 7 cp a turn minimum. I dont know how much of an impact fishing will have, since I never used the fishing combo before. Double Batt + Spearhead gives 7 + 3 = 10 which might be enough with fishing, is the thought. I dont like the Sents because they're free killpoints I have to keep in mind when playing Mission 2. That brings my total to 6 (or 5 if I replace with Astropath). Crush them is going to be pretty much every one of my turns until the Hellhammer dies though. I intend to run him that way, hence the short ranged gun. Defensive Gunner only if it gets charged which I dont know why but I think there will be people wanting to charge it with some scary killy units - declaring both Crush Them! and Defensive Gunners will make them think twice about it, so the Hellhammer because a little bit of a zone control thing. Too bad there isnt a "self-destruct" strategem for AM to use. Surprisingly not much to theorycraft on this list. Seems pretty settled as is. The only thing to me is it could be lacking damage outside the Hellhammer - 2 Battle Cannon Russes is not what I'd consider "rolling in damage".
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Post by No One on Apr 14, 2018 1:58:10 GMT
I cant remember anymore off the top of my head, but even just that amount I think you're looking at like 6 or 7 cp a turn minimum. Also reroll: I'd expect at least one reroll in the shooting phase, more possibly over the entire phase (i.e. mainly psychic). Definitely Vengeance for Cadia if up against Chaos as well. It probably would, but in no small part because you wouldn't be able to take the hellhammer . Your average from GS is 50% recovery. Aquila...it depends on how much your opponent is using, how many CP per strat (and to an extent 'when': if he dies and your opponent uses strats afterwards...), but I think 2 CP is probably going to be a good (though tad conservative) estimate i.e. 6 strats, probably a couple of 2 CP ones, ~8-10 CP used. Which still gives you ~22 CP. But, at ~6-8 CP per battle round...probably all gone by end of T3. Yeah, that'd be pretty powerful: you're just unlikely to gain all those benefits. Also, it's often just reroll 1s on not incredibly damaging units: even mortars into guardsmen, you get an extra half a dead guardsmen. Chucking FRF!SRF! and full rerolls on a consolidated squad would be good though, especially with plasma, yeah. (All 3 is 12.5%, all 3 on 2 units is <2%). *Shrug* Testing.
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Post by kazetanade on Apr 20, 2018 4:26:41 GMT
The test cases went really sour for this list. I overestimated the durability of the Leman Russes, and definitely overestimated the Baneblade. I've locked myself into a terrible substandard list now, and will have to try really hard to bring it up to speed with others.
Most of my closing thoughts are up on 3rd or 4th post, which I put up in lieu of the listbuild parameters which almost NONE of them were met.
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