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Post by almostmercury on Feb 19, 2018 15:06:21 GMT
My current reaper “counter” is good just about anywhere and it’s tunnelling impaler cannons. You need onslaught in this case (depending on terrain).
Not a fan of dev gaunts against 2+ saves, but they are on the table.
I want my deep striking units to be guard and Purestrains and you an only forewarn once and probably not at all against the hive guard.
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Post by almostmercury on Feb 19, 2018 16:59:01 GMT
The tunnelling impaler guards is for two reasons. 36” range and target denial. Without onslaught, they’ll hit on 4+ but 10-12 shots at 4 is better than not shooting (dead guard or out of range).
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 19, 2018 19:25:03 GMT
My current reaper “counter” is good just about anywhere and it’s tunnelling impaler cannons. You need onslaught in this case (depending on terrain). Not a fan of dev gaunts against 2+ saves, but they are on the table. I want my deep striking units to be guard and Purestrains and you an only forewarn once and probably not at all against the hive guard. I get your concept but i dont buy it. The best counter is still steaming up a couple of Flyrants and wailing on them, but i hear they dont work too well in ITC what with being easy target markers that give away points easily. Honestly I'm not a fan of devs on 2+ saves either. But doubletapping will do the work requested of them. Still, tunnelling the Hive Guard... i get its for positioning and protection. With the 4+ to hit, and i hope there's synapse nearby, then alaitoc debuff, ImpGuards wont do a whole lot to Reapers. I do think we need some other solution to the problem, or even better that they wont be a problem come March.
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 19, 2018 19:32:35 GMT
so I have a pseudo-answer to Dark Reapers. 30 man strong without double tap is enough to eviscerate a Dark Reaper squad to the last man, assuming Alaitoc there will be like a last man or 2. Double-tapping finishes it even if they get Forewarned, and should be enough to severely cripple the unit if they had Protect on. I don't know how effective it'd be at countering reapers: T1 you'd be screened out by rangers, maybe T2 as well by random stuff (serpents/hemlocks/whatever). Add to that fire and fade to get out of LoS/into transports and reflexes? Tough ask. As far as I'm aware, everything short of a Genestealer bomb with Swarmlord movement OR a large number of Hive Tyrants is a tough ask for removing Dark Reapers. Devilgants come closest after them. Screening is a problem i agree. Outside of shooting the screens with my Fexes I'm not sure how else i can react to this. Do you have another suggestion? And no i dont think 288 point HGs in a tunnel hiting on 5s or worse is the answer. That's still average of 4 hits 3-4 wounds and 2-3 dead reapers. Jorg devils with warlord trait nearby gets them 8 or 9 dead at least before doubletap. What the heck is fire and fade? Which one is reflexes? Eldar has the highest number of reactive strategems and usable buffs i dont know which is which anymore.
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Post by almostmercury on Feb 19, 2018 19:38:57 GMT
Hive guard wound on 2s and drop the 2+ to a 5+. Moreover, tunneling them can be useful in ANY game because they are the best shooting. The biggest difference between gaunts and Guard is the range, which has the most drastic impact on what you’re capable of.
Flyrants do jack to any model with a 2+. Whenever your plan revolves around your opponent saving on 2s, you need a new plan. Flyrants are there to clear rangers and guardians to make space.
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Post by No One on Feb 20, 2018 0:18:25 GMT
What the heck is fire and fade? Which one is reflexes? Fire and fade is move after shooting (so, start in LoS, move out and ignore heavy, shoot, duck back into cover. Or into a serpent because ). Reflexes is lightning reflexes: additional -1 to hit: pretty sure it's usable on Infantry and Fly. (And no, I don't have good answers: my current 'solution' is a good move/charge with purestrains/stealer slingshot and hope that I've got enough to tag/wrap them, but even that's unreliable).
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 20, 2018 4:07:45 GMT
Hive guard wound on 2s and drop the 2+ to a 5+. Moreover, tunneling them can be useful in ANY game because they are the best shooting. The biggest difference between gaunts and Guard is the range, which has the most drastic impact on what you’re capable of. Flyrants do jack to any model with a 2+. Whenever your plan revolves around your opponent saving on 2s, you need a new plan. Flyrants are there to clear rangers and guardians to make space. You dont mind the 2+ so much when you send 72 shots into them all wounding on 2+(i would admit to not bringing a single Flyrant for the job, nothing gets done. So there's the matter of cost-benefit ratio here. ) With ImpGuard, its coming close to using lascannons against genestealers or something to that effect - effective gun but wrong target. They'd be better off shooting that wave serpent instead. I agree though that range and screening are major problems. But with the drop ie tunnels, and with something else to clear screens, devilgants should outperform HG for this task, not taking into account doubletap and taking into account the 2+ save/5+ save. Quick maths says the performance is pretty close though- 2.2W to 3.8W, 2.2 for HG and 3.8 for Devilgants. Protect drops the HG to 1W+. I dont like the odds for either but I'm short on ideas. Genestealer Sling is the only other one i know. Flyrants get 1.6, same as before in 7th vs Terminators - so yea, they're not the right unit to clear Reapers. I wager the Flyrant spam power probably comes from how hard they are to down and c9ncentrated firepower once thou breach the alaitoc buff range.
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Post by autoxidation on Feb 20, 2018 5:37:24 GMT
I would agree that Genestealer sling is probably the best counter to a large buffed Dark Reaper unit behind a screen (with Devilgants or something to clear it), it just requires significant investment (especially if used with Swarmlord).
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Post by themoreisee on Feb 20, 2018 8:49:47 GMT
Hi,
First of all, as this is my first post on this forum i wanted to say that I already got some good ideas and tactics from you guys.
I‘m fairly new to playing 40k and tyranids but might have a different approach to getting rid of reapers. What you think about taking a Jormungandr Detachment with raveners and using the enemy below stratagen to drop in a neurothrope with 6 zoanthropes smite-blasting them off the table. You get reroll 1s for the psychic, +3 deadly wound as there are 6 zoanthropes, as second psychic power psychic scream. If you get lucky on your rolls that might be somewhere between Zoanthrope Smite - 4-9 Zoanthrope Scream - 1-3 Neurothrope Smite - 1-6 deadly wounds. You could even commando reroll a 1 for the zoanthropes to maybe boost the damage?
Only drawback might be positioning and price, as they need to be the closest enemy unit. But maybe worth a thought.
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 20, 2018 9:59:20 GMT
Hi, First of all, as this is my first post on this forum i wanted to say that I already got some good ideas and tactics from you guys. I‘m fairly new to playing 40k and tyranids but might have a different approach to getting rid of reapers. What you think about taking a Jormungandr Detachment with raveners and using the enemy below stratagen to drop in a neurothrope with 6 zoanthropes smite-blasting them off the table. You get reroll 1s for the psychic, +3 deadly wound as there are 6 zoanthropes, as second psychic power psychic scream. If you get lucky on your rolls that might be somewhere between Zoanthrope Smite - 4-9 Zoanthrope Scream - 1-3 Neurothrope Smite - 1-6 deadly wounds. You could even commando reroll a 1 for the zoanthropes to maybe boost the damage? Only drawback might be positioning and price, as they need to be the closest enemy unit. But maybe worth a thought. Welcome to the Hive! come by the General Discussion thread and say hi in the welcome thread and hope you stay around. Also, dont mind my snarky behaviour. I'm rude, not malign. Zoanthropes aren't in comsideration due to the Smite Closest Target restriction. Reapers will most likely be not the closest target for you to shoot due to having fillers or tough things like wave serpents in the way. You'll almost never get into the right range to smite them via Jorg drop unless your opponent makes a huge mistake. Zoeys make a good ground holder with how hard they are to kill though. Putting them on the ground as part of a "cant kill me T1" strat is workable.
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Post by almostmercury on Feb 20, 2018 14:51:02 GMT
Like I said. Your quick maths tell you that HG and gaunts will be close and HG can be mitigated with onslaught in this case to likely outperform.
Dev gaunts don’t benefit from scorch bugs and will always be wounding on 3s re-rolling 1s if big enough.
If the unit causing you the most grief is T3 and you decide not to kill it because your T8 gun is “better off” killing tanks then your target priority is wrong.
Which would you rather? Dark reapers or equivalent points in wave serpents? Wave serpents aren’t winning anyone the game, they’re there to stop the reapers from dying before they shoot and that should tell you everything you need to know.
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Post by almostmercury on Feb 20, 2018 15:16:07 GMT
I would agree that Genestealer sling is probably the best counter to a large buffed Dark Reaper unit behind a screen (with Devilgants or something to clear it), it just requires significant investment (especially if used with Swarmlord). It has to be used with swarmlord because of the 48” range.
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 20, 2018 16:09:50 GMT
Like I said. Your quick maths tell you that HG and gaunts will be close and HG can be mitigated with onslaught in this case to likely outperform. Dev gaunts don’t benefit from scorch bugs and will always be wounding on 3s re-rolling 1s if big enough. If the unit causing you the most grief is T3 and you decide not to kill it because your T8 gun is “better off” killing tanks then your target priority is wrong. Which would you rather? Dark reapers or equivalent points in wave serpents? Wave serpents aren’t winning anyone the game, they’re there to stop the reapers from dying before they shoot and that should tell you everything you need to know. A correction: they're only close when you apply Alaitoc's debuff AND specifically, the cover save. Protect will halve HG to 1.x dead reapers, and as the defensive buffs lessen (ie no protect, no cover, no alaitoc), the gap widens by a significant margin. As mentioned previously, a devilgant unit will kill ~8 or 9 alaitoc reapers not in cover, while a HG unit would kill... however many i put up there, can't remember. Mind the wave serpents aren't always there for the dark reapers. They could be carrying (as an example, not a rep of the meta) flamer wraithguards, melta firedragons, or other such nonsense. my point I'm trying to make is that HG are not very well suited to the task and although their guns CAN be used in this way, i can also use 180 devourer gaunt shots to shoot at a Knight for the same damage result as a HG shooting into Reapers. When you're forced into that scenario, you make do, but why make ill-matchups part of the plan? The idea of HG in tunnels isnt inheritently bad though. Missing out on Kronos but living is better than dying. Still i havent come across a lot that can kill HG on the ground... so in the tunnels is pretty much a range extension exercise? I think the idea can be considered, but I'm not very sold. I'll pull it out the next time I'm playing vs Eldar.
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Post by almostmercury on Feb 20, 2018 21:15:04 GMT
Okay, here are the full maths for it:
Unsaved Wounds 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9+
12 Hive Guard 5+ 01 04 11 18 21 19 14 08 04 03 w/protect 5+ 03 11 20 23 20 13 07 03 01 w/onslaught 4+ 02 05 09 15 18 17 14 20 w/protect 4+ 02 07 14 19 20 16 11 06 04
30 Devgaunts 5+ 01 03 06 10 13 15 14 32
There's only 1 set for devgaunts because I've assumed Alaitoc debuff for everything and neither protect nor onslaught have an impact here. I've also assumed double tap because, you're obviously going to need it.
You're correct, the gaunts perform fairly well without intervention, where as the hive guard need a little more to get there (onslaught specifically), but even with protect they do fine.
Other benefits for Hive Guard -36" range with no LOS required (read: no forewarning and the unit can’t hide outside of a transport, easily the most significant factor outside of rolling dice) -36" range provides a MASSIVE threat bubble and avoids rangers much more easily. -does not play into the strength of short ranged weapons -MUCH greater target diversity -smaller footprint -probably a cheaper taxi
Other benefits for Dev gaunts Save 48 points Fewer moving parts (which is significant) Has a significant number of bodies that require a committment to remove (but still not hard to do with the tools), but this unit will be in threat range Does not require Jormungandr (which is significant, but costs more points while possibly saving a CP)
If you have any other benefits for either, I'd happily add them to the list.
Neither of them reliably (defined here as 2/3 of the time, or more likely than not) kill a unit of 9 reapers without a failed morale test (dev gaunts are only ~1/3), and while the dev gaunts do this slightly to modestly better dev gaunts DO NOT do it significantly better and come with their own massive drawbacks, including 18" range, with makes it very easy to screen out.
Ultimately, I disagree with the argument that dev gaunts are "better suited" because more than hit/wound/save matters here. Moreover, while I might take dev gaunts if I think I'm up against something like this because they'll work well enough, I will never ever leave home without hive guard in a Tyranid detachment. Not ever.
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Post by valdrog on Feb 20, 2018 21:25:35 GMT
My answer is Hive Jorm, 9 Warriors with Death Spitters, Warlord Prime with ignore cover warlord trait from Jorm and a death spitter, unit of raveners for delivery, 30 heavy bolter shots that ignore cover hitting on 3s, us stratagem to shoot again. Should wipe out 2 units
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