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Post by brianb9999 on Apr 20, 2018 15:49:42 GMT
The test cases went really sour for this list. I overestimated the durability of the Leman Russes, and definitely overestimated the Baneblade. I've locked myself into a terrible substandard list now, and will have to try really hard to bring it up to speed with others. Most of my closing thoughts are up on 3rd or 4th post, which I put up in lieu of the listbuild parameters which almost NONE of them were met. Really? That sucks...I've found the Russes to be quite durable so far in my games...although I've found naked Guard squads doing anything besides sitting back in my DZ just die as soon as someone looks at them. No real surprise, I guess, but even 90ish infantry at 1500 pts isn't much without protection. I'm still trying to figure out how to run my AM effectively in 8th, probably using as much armor as possible. I know Chimeras are quite expensive, but they can actually get Guardsmen onto midfield objectives, and I can get 3 in at 1500 with 3 Russes, Hellhound, Manticore. Definitely want to try the Russes in a Spearhead next time I play, though. Didn't realize until I reread the Codex that even HQ Russes are obsec in Spearheads.
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Post by kazetanade on Apr 20, 2018 16:59:01 GMT
The test cases went really sour for this list. I overestimated the durability of the Leman Russes, and definitely overestimated the Baneblade. I've locked myself into a terrible substandard list now, and will have to try really hard to bring it up to speed with others. Most of my closing thoughts are up on 3rd or 4th post, which I put up in lieu of the listbuild parameters which almost NONE of them were met. Really? That sucks...I've found the Russes to be quite durable so far in my games...although I've found naked Guard squads doing anything besides sitting back in my DZ just die as soon as someone looks at them. No real surprise, I guess, but even 90ish infantry at 1500 pts isn't much without protection. I'm still trying to figure out how to run my AM effectively in 8th, probably using as much armor as possible. I know Chimeras are quite expensive, but they can actually get Guardsmen onto midfield objectives, and I can get 3 in at 1500 with 3 Russes, Hellhound, Manticore. Definitely want to try the Russes in a Spearhead next time I play, though. Didn't realize until I reread the Codex that even HQ Russes are obsec in Spearheads. I've lost the baneblade chassis in a single volley so far every game other than the games where enemy brought NO anti-tank. There's a lot of high power kill combos offered in other codexes that IG just has no access to - its hard to outlast 54 reroll 3+ reroll 4+ ap-2/-1 d3/1, or 2 rounds of Dark Reapers + Triple Prisms with bells and whistles. The games where the chassis has got to shot, same points of Leman Russ Battle Tanks would have legitimately done it better, as long as they got to reroll their D6 shots. Number of tanks is probably a key thing, what AM really has to offer is in numbers and more numbers. I wager that this list would be a lot stronger with double the manpower, and running them as valhallan with the special gun. It also be stronger with 7 LR base, with Catachans Tank Commanders fielding plasma and Cadians with Battle Cannons. I wont be revisiting this anytime soon though, i rather run an all Fex list than play humies for a competitiom again.
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Post by brianb9999 on Apr 20, 2018 21:03:50 GMT
Fair enough. Want to get my hands on a few more fexes myself.
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Post by kazetanade on May 2, 2018 17:39:14 GMT
Quick Update:
I ran the list at the tourney and got 2-0-1, I lost my 2nd game by a single point vs a seasoned daemon bomb player that was half a turn away from being tabled by the end of the game (Guard is OP vs Chaos).
I ran up against in game 1, a Sisters of Battle strikeforce with Celestine, some of the jumpjet girls, Dominions, transports for everyone, a heavy bolter team way in the back, guys that give you extra Acts of Faith/rerolls, and two organ playing tanks with D6 shots. Oh god, it was a massacre. Punishers and Battle Cannons just blew him apart as he tried to reach the line, outflanking Shadowsword caught him(and everyone else) by surprised and wrecked the back tanks and heavy bolter squads. he barely held the objectives throughout the game but because scoring was all in at the end for this mission, I double moved my infantry squads up and stole the objectives by sheer obsec bodies. Suffice to say, he was extremely sad.
I ran up against in Game 2, Daemon drop with a Letter Bomb of 30, and 3 Horror Bombs of 20 each. Unit of plaguebearers with -1 (-2 with buffs) sitting on objectives, that mortal wound tree, a nurgling DP / Changeling / Horror character, and two units of Obliterators. I thought the game was in my pocket until I made a very, VERY, VERY big mistake by advancing all of my sentinels up as far as I could to push back deepstrikes. His Letters came in... and made a 20" movement through charging (3d6 dice with some huge rolls), pile ins, and consolidation, while being safe from being shot at by my army due to the sentinels which he avoided killing by some decent placement of pile ins and stuff. Suffice to say I was very panicked to see a Letterbomb literally 4" from my front door, despite the fact I got first turn. I thought I lost the game at T2, but I barely managed to kill 90% of the plaguebearer unit by this turn, and tried to prevent his coming charge from hitting the tanks. I half failed because the Horrors basically killed most of my infantry squads and allowed the Letters to charge in, but he could only get enough distance (really bad charge rolls) to get into the front 2 most tanks. Which meant I had approx 70% of my army left to shoot with when his entire army was on the table. Relic of Cadia on the remaining battle tanks/pask/mortars/infantry squads, Vengeance for Cadia on the shadowsword, and Overlapping Fields of Fire basically wasted his entire letter bomb and about 1/2 of his horrors. The next turn he got a few more really good wraps using the same technique to prevent his last 2 units of horrors from being wiped, I killed whatever else was left on the table not wrap in combat (the shadowsword failed to kill the two Obliterator units for 2 turns with full rerolls... what.), and the game came down to if I could make a single 5+ save to stop my last Infantry Squad from being wiped which I failed. So he won by 1 point on kp.
I ran up against in Game 3, a mirror matchup! IG with 3 Basilisks, 5 Russes, 4 infantry squads with 4 chimeras; FULLY mechanized save for 2 units of deeptriking Scions. And here I was looking with mostly a shadowsword for real anti-tank. FML. I even gave him an objective for free because I got greedy and placed my 3rd objective close to one of his so the shadowsword could grab both on outflank, only to see him steam 2 Chimeras to grab both from T1. I only won because the outflanking shadowsword caught him by surprise and he decided to ignore it (after a very bad 1st turn of shooting with it). He then spent most of the game shooting down my Russes and whichever Infantry Squads which were annoying to him at the time. Their sacrifice managed to hold the midfield the entire game ( denying him 2vp a turn, while gaining 2vp a turn whenever I cleared his midfield infantry squad/chimera), and the shadowsword + Pask basically worked over his models standing next to the available objectives ASAP while keeping an extremely tight fist on the objectives right at my doorstep (the objective allowed us to Raze the enemy's objectives, so if I allowed him to take my foremost objective I'd lose straight from T1 with no chance to catch up). I didnt killed anything other than his foremost Infantry Squad + Chimera on T1, but I left all the Chimeras wounded on half wounds or a bit more. T2 after I lost all my BC Russes and only had 3 Infantry Squads left on the field (two were trying to hold my back objective tightly to protect vs deepstriking Scions, but were badly depleted) I managed to make a comback by blowing up ALL his Chims in a turn, and having my mortars (bless the HWT, they carried every single game by DOING THEIR DAMN JOB UNLIKE THE SHADOWSWORD) and heavy bolters clear his Infantry Squads, giving me access via double move (one of the 3 infantry squads which wasnt hugging the back objective, and only had 4 guys left after being shredded constantly by heavy bolters and basilisk fire) and the outflanking Shadowsword, to his foremost objective to raze and the 2 objectives he was holding onto in T1. So from bottom T2 onwards I was suddenly doubling his objectives every turn, and end of T3 I didnt lose a single model (he suddenly realized the shadowsword was a threat and tried to kill it off straight, leaving it on 2 wounds left), but he made a 9" charge and razed my back objective. I killed more of his models and managed to get the hero pair of Guardsmen (only 2 left now from 4) right up into his base of operations, behind an LOS blocking ruin he'd been hiding his basilisks behind, and got ready to charge one of the remaining basilisks and let the shadowsword and Pask work whatever they could on the remaining Leman Russes he had (Pask was still 2+ to hit, but the Shadowsword had 6W left so was hitting on like 5+). At the end of T4 he called it because he couldnt outscore me even if he blew up the shadowsword now.
Overall out of 21 players I ended up 7th, mostly due to the 1pt loss in Game 2; otherwise I would have placed 4th or 5th. If I hadnt messed up the Objective placement in Game 3, I may have gotten 4th or 5th regardless. The list performed surprisingly well despite being fully prepared to be decimated every single game. I dont think my breakdown on page 1 is wrong, but it helps Game 1 and 2 I didnt face anyone who could actually deal with proper armor (which is what I didnt expect).
Next round I am going to start playtesting a mostly Carnifex concept with the Beta Rules coming in. I think it could perform decent on an ITC basis, so I'd like to test it before going back to a 120 Gaunt + Tervigon concept which would be bloody tiresome to play. I'll put up the test list over the weekend and what I built the list around / expect from the list to come after that.
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Post by kazetanade on Jun 3, 2018 6:33:34 GMT
New Updates!
Havent gamed much since end of April, just an odd game here or there as I get the chance.
Latests lists to be tested but not tested:
1. Carnifex Concept.
2. Genestealer Sling Concept
3. Mortal Wounds Concept
4. Tervigon Board Control Concept
Most of my lists are moving to 1750 and ITC considerations in preparation of our GT(? Whenever they decide on the final) happening in September. I've designed the first 3, and will be playing Mortal Wounds in just a bit.
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Post by kazetanade on Jun 20, 2018 18:41:44 GMT
New Updates!
The Carnifex Stampede list concept and list has been put up on the first 2 posts, as have the GS SLing and Mortal Wounds Spam lists.
I've actually tested the Mortal Wounds Spam list a bit and found it working better than expected. I only tested some preliminary ones that include weird stuff like double Maleceptors and a Toxicrene for fun, but their result was pretty unexpectedly good. Zoanthropes are pretty good and boy do they soak fire power. After the first D6 + 3, people start getting real scared of it even if you're smiting a wrap, since that wrap starts to thin real fast.
I've played the GS Sling twice last week; it did well both times, but not as well as I'd hoped. Still, both games the opponents gave up after GS assaulted them T1, and although I couldnt get the decisive running them down as I thought I should be getting, my GS were grinding them down really hard every turn and basically left 1 of them 2 models short of being tabled, and the other about to lose all of his scoring in half a turn. I actually take some pretty heavy losses in that list before the Bastion, so once the Bastion is being playtested I expect to see a much harsher game for the enemy, although I lose Flyrant support. None of these games were in ITC format, so next games onwards I expect to get some ITC practice and see how well these lists perform for scoring.
I've abandoned the Tervigon Map Control list because I cant make it work internally in my head. After seeing the recent ITC event give 2nd place to a Flyrant list I was interested in making a Flyrant Drop list work, so will be working on that one sometime in the next 2 weeks.
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Post by red on Jun 28, 2018 19:47:25 GMT
The Carnifex Stampede list i find it lacking a lot of fexes , and hive mind . Lev is only intresting if you have hive mind to spread that 6+ FNP i dont see your winged tyrant staying he has a different role in this list. you will also have a lot of trouble with horde army's . OOE is great but he has no hive mind .. if you want to play lev its very hard to take him. also the venom cannon is not that good if you dont have hive mind you get -1 to hit if its not the closed target . my 1k list ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) ++ + HQ + Hive Tyrant: Adrenal Glands, 2x Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms. No wings keep him cheap he baby sits your CC fexes give them FNP
Neurothrope babby sitter for the daka fexes + Troops + Ripper Swarms: 3x Ripper Swarm Ripper Swarms: 3x Ripper Swarm Ripper Swarms: 3x Ripper Swarm
+ Heavy Support + 3 x Carnifex: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Bone Mace, Spore Cysts, Tusks you could lose the tusks to keep them cheap. they are your anti everything .
Carnifex: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Bone Mace, Spore Cysts extra CC fex had no points for tusks. if you give your tyrant MRC you could give this guy a gun for a 3th daka fex turn one they could be 15 inches across the board , turn 2 you be at 23 inches rolling for a charge you know you could get
2 x Carnifex: Bone Mace, Enhanced Senses, Spore Cysts, 2x Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms they are your anti horde and bubble wrap and have to neuro to lead them and give them FNP and dish out smites
you could go kraken with this list then you know turn 2 you be in CC and you can exit CC of other target turn 3 or else a t2 assault is a bit of a gamble on your dice roles.\
its not perfect you will have to endure but it can be fun to play.
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 1, 2018 12:55:24 GMT
I assume you're talking about... the 1K list right? I havent been playing any small scale games for awhile, so I've put that on the back burner. I'm sure there are a lot of new considerations for it though to be honest.
I've recently tested the Genestealer Sling list rather intensively, going up against - Chaos max Oblitz + Renegade Warden, Harlequins + Ulthwe Craftworld, Triple Knights(2 Gallants 1 Valiant) + IG Battery (same list two different players), Mephrit Necrons, Drukhari Reaver spam + Alaitoc Craftworld max Hemlocks, Siamhen Craftworld Bikers + Alaitoc Craftworld Fliers, and a minimized version vs Death Guard.
All I can say is that my Genestealers under-performed ridiculously badly for the "best unit in Tyranid codex", but I suppose it also had to do with unit sizes I played with. I had a 16 man GS in the Bastion, and a 17man PGS coming in from Ambush - the 17 man always performed reasonably well because they make it in mostly intact, while the 16 man always did poorly due to losing models to the Bastion explode, overwatch, and making combat with less than 12 guys alive. However, neither unit ever completely destroyed their targets; they were always either 70% down, or were about to die in the first place. Even a 12 man unit going into IG, I expect 9 to be able to kill 9 IG guys, which actually failed with frequent occurance.
On the flip side, After sending both the PGS and the Hivestrains into the enemy, as long as they hit at the same time, the enemy hasnt really been able to recover. The exceptions are the Knight lists... 9 Oblitz hiding in reserve has the firepower to actually destroy a Genestealer squad and a half before double shoot if they decided not to shoot the Swarmlord, letting the Knight shoot the Swarmlord with its Missles and Twinned Battle Cannon, and the 3 Knight list just has too many wounds for a unsuitable melee list to chew through and survive. Both of these lists survived an aplha-strike relatively intact and proceeded to walk over the remains without any real concern. The Triple Knight list was something way left field though so I expect the list to perform better against a standard 3 Knight shooting list. Hawkshroud makes things a bit harder, but I'm actually pretty confident of knocking a standard Knight down to 6 wounds, and with Mind Control and Mass Hypnopsis on one Knight and Horror on another, I think I can render only 1 Knight (or none maybe) to be a real threat. But too many things need to go right for this to happen, so it's still a 50-50 kinda thing. Wiping the backline would be easy though so if I could outscore 2 Knights with what I have, I would be in a very strong position.
I lost to the Harlequins list because of a razorsharp edge mistake - I determined my Genestealers wouldnt be able to hurt his huge 12man Harley squad and the key characters sitting behind him (due to the way the terrain was positioned, some mistaken understanding of the units base stats, and my maximum in combat estimates), so I gave him first turn and an extremely safe deployment to deny him his T1 rush, planning to outscore his early by just a bit every turn and waiting for him to commit to a strategy before coming with the hammer. What I should have done is commit to my list strategy for T1 alphastrike and blow everything into the squad and the support characters behind, and hope that he doesnt have enough left to deal with the Swarmlord and the scoring I have on the map thereafter (which was a lot; 2 almost full units of Genestealers, a Swarmlord, 3 units of GSC, Rippers, and GSC characters, too many things for the remainder of his army to handle before being cut down). Giving such a strong support list the chance to set up all of his defenses (which I wrongly thought I had enough tools to deal with) was a fatal mistake.
I lost to the Eldar SaimHenn biker game because... my GS failed a 3" charge, with cp reroll. Against a full ground shuriken force, that actually hurt a lot.
Unfortunately I wasnt really able to test the PGS as an anti-hard target pick, as they never succeeded MFB on a target with T5 and above. I think out of 7 casts, only 3 went through. Mind Control only succeeded once in the games I played, although it was only played 4 times. Based on average rolls though, I think the PGS are extremely good at picking a specific unit down to manageable/negligible (such as if I need to kill a Ionhead, or a troublesome Destroyer unit), and getting the MfB would let them have the "best unit in the codex" performance I was looking for. Both units would be great units to just play havoc in a backline of infantry though, springboarding from one unit to another in combat and just cutting it down over time.
Hive Guard have been.... surprisingly lacklustre. They were really the carry of my games for a long time, but recently I find them facing 4++ and 3++ with frightening frequency. With my swingy dice, they now go from "noticeable damage" to "that was a waste of cp", even against things with no invuls. I mean when you deal 2damage in 1 turn, and 10 damage in the next turn, against the same target...
The key takeaway I had was that Genestealer units used in this fashion NEED to reach the enemy big. You cant take a 16 man to get 12 man in combat - it has to be a 19 man hitting with 17 left. This will absolutely devestate most enemy backlines by reducing them to manageable levels while being extremely difficult to dislodge without melee focus, likewise it will cripple most elite units enough that they stop being a major threat. However, with the PGS and GS combo I realized that too many points were being spent in support - I had a total of nearly 600/1750 in supportive elements that cant stand on their own weight. I was pretending to be an Eldar while playing Tyranids, and was on a thinner razoredge than a pure Harlequin army with the way I was playing. Additionally, I noticed although the GSC portion gave me utility, they also bled points. I mean I was feeding nearly max points for DEATH BY A THOUSAND CUTS, which I consider to be the hardest point to score; and a lot of that came from picking off Rippers and characters. Add that to Head Hunter bleeding max points every game, I'm actually disliking the GSC for such an aggressive and all-in approach, although they're reaaaaally good for scoring Recon (but so are Rippers for cheaper). The fact they can score it T1 is good, but games are not lasting more than 3 for me, so I need to find a way to score fast and hard, and deny the same to my opponents.
I did some dissecting of the list together with the Harlequin player, which is when I realized that our lists were pretty much mirror images from diffrent codexes. It was during this discussion that I remembered that Tyranids cant be played like other codexes - we dont have the appropriate strategems and spells and other enablers to make a crazy unit that will break the back of the enemy in one swoop, so we have to supplement a good unit with some support and a lot of MTO. A Genestealer's MTO only exists in more Genestealers, but if I had to spend an addtional 200+ points for support that cant hold up its own weight and pretty much exists only to make the Genestealers powerful, the army is going to be in trouble once the Genestealers are killed in retaliation.
One thing I noticed while discussing why Genestealers are good or bad, is that (as everyone knows), Genestealers are feared no matter where, and most opponents I've faced are actually surprised at how little damage mine do once they've been whittled down a little. Which means their primary strengths are:
1. Disrupting backlines with a boatload of attacks that can render multiple squads depleted but not dead at the same time 2. Destroying singular Elites/HQs with a boatload of attacks that rend, and hence can render those squads so damage they are negligible 3. Being an extremely intimidating lure for the enemy to focus on
Which actually lends them to a very interesting and surprising relevation - they are a good win condition, but they are a perfect support element for a Flyrant list, whose main concern is getting shot down by crazy anti-elite or massed anti-tank guns.
There is also a prize for "best non-soup Army", which I think is a more reasonable goal to aim for compared to "best general" as I have a lot more to practice and learn before I'm good enough to go for the top slot.
Taking the same "I need multiples of my threats in order to generate proper MTO due to our lack of defensive support", and the above two points, I intend to merge the Flyrant Drop list with the Genestealer Sling list, and MTO on both of those elements. If I can remove the Hive Guard, I might be able to make it Triple Fly Triple Genes, which in of itself is pretty scary until a fully mechanized army like Triple Knights comes out.
I have yet to consider how to deal with Triple Knight without GSC, as that was my main way of dealing with them. With a Double Flyrant Double Genestealer list, I may want to think a bit on considering Toxin Sacs.
Now how do I link this to the first page...
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 7, 2018 19:16:54 GMT
I've completed my GS Sling practice rounds yesterday with a final game against Tau. Although I was hurt pretty bad by their ridiculous alphastrike ability, I think the venomthrope played a big part in mitigating a T1 loss. It forced the player to abandon Kauyon and use Montka instead to manuveur and pick off the Venomthropes with his limited long range guns, and I lost one of the GS units after that; that was mostly according to plan though. I also noticed that Tau has excellent castling ability, filling bottom floor of ruins with drones and higher floors with pathfinders and disallowing any charge while also having an all encompassing overwatch. Quite frankly, no GS unit is going to take it and be in functional shape. If I had a full 18 hit a Riptide... I think I could burn through the drone protection and hurt it hard. But since I had to eat like 30 shots of pulse, then 32 shots of HBC, 16 SMS, and a few markerlights to add insult to injury... it just doesnt look feasible. I even got off lucky as the guy was carrying ATS + VT instead of VT + CFDS in Tau sept like I would have personally done, I'm pretty sure my GS units would not be doing anything the entire game in that case.
I still pulled through a win after losing most of my army, only left with HG, a Neuro, a Swarmlord, and a tonne of Rippers that he couldnt kill since he only had 18 SMS shots. I'm pretty confident of the modified GS Sling list to perform against most threats now. If I ran this army composition, I'd stand a very good chance of winning Best Single Codex/Non-Soup Army since most other people are playing with a lot of Aeldari/Drukhari/Harley, Knights/IG, and some splattering of xenos around. I'm confident of the list's abilities to beat any other non-soup army, except maybe triple ++ Knights. Although, I really need a strategy to get around Drone Support. Depending on the terrain I suppose, but I dont think I can send a unit in straight up - might need to do some creative trapping, then send the Swarmlord into them first to bait the FtGG. My SL rolled 2 on 3 dice so that failed but... it should usually work. If I had more points I would actually spend on Guard to keep him alive and be more aggressive with his movement. Surprisingly, no one has really gone after him as the lynchpin of my list. They rather go after the Genestealers... *shrug*
As an addendum, GS have been very good at drawing fire. No one has really registered that the Genestealers are actually just bait for the anti-elite/horde flex guns most people are throwing around. It's really cute when I line them up across my deployment zone and people think it's a "screen"...
For missions, I've found that most people are trying to restrict your scoring on the obvious choices like Reaper and BGH, and Kingslayer to a degree. I've been scoring mostly off of Head Hunter, Old School, and Recon/Kingslayer. I noticed that putting the Flyrants in, I seldom get drawn on Head Hunter, but I often get drawn on Kingslayer - I think I can use this to bait my enemy and deny him points for a few turns, if the rest of my army can still function. I can easily deny people Recon and BEL, so as long as I dont give them my warlord, I should have a lot less trouble than expected denying points.
If Venomthropes had their own -1 to stack with their aura, or a strategem for that... man they'd be exactly what my army needs, I'd be willing to pay 2cp for that. Better than 3cp for sporefield.
I went outside of my posted lists for a bit and tried out a downscaled version of mattblower's list. I made some changes - I kept a unit of HG to keep firing twice, I had a venomthrope hanging around (cant remember if his had one or not), I ran 3 Harpies instead of 2 Crones/1 Harpy or whatever combination he's using. I just dont think a S6 -1 Flamer is all that great, unless against stuff like Stealthsuits or Scouts or Rangers. Going forward I might throw 1 in my list, although 2 Harpies feels weak due to lack of shot/wounds. However, the list was thrown against 5 Knights; 2 Crusaders and 1 Gallant, then 2 Helverin Armigers. Oh my god that hurt like hell. 60" guns and 36+12" guns destroying me from across the board, Leviathan made a total of 4 saves out of nearly 70? It was a hard fought defeat though. I think with so many damn Knights coming in, I have to play hybrid Flyrants. I need the damage from melee to screw their damn invul saves, because I'm not pushing things through a 3++. This FMC list especially, with 2 sets of VC Harpies and 1 STC Harpy. I might try 2 STC Harpies 1 Crone, but I dont have high expectations.
I noticed a few trends; first, every list I've played has less than 40 Infantry on the ground. The only list I witness over this weekend and last weekend while practicing and watching other people's games are... Necrons, and a Tzaangor spam list which I had no idea how it works. The -1 from the Deathspitters were pretty good, up until they faced Knights, but even then I never felt that they could outperform Devourers. Devourers' double volume and 3+/5+ to wound (which is tied with DS for everything other* than Eldar vehicles and transports) allowed me better leverage to take advantage of Pathogenic Slime against those targets. I seldom got more than a 1 or 2 wounds dealt with the -1 even. The second trend I noticed was... there was at least 1 Knight on every table. Jesus. The third trend I noticed was mostly that most lists had ridiculously low scoring. I mean, laughably bad scoring. Which doesnt seem to matter in ITC because the missions are... not really emphasizing scoring in general. WTF ITC?
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Post by mule on Jul 10, 2018 6:15:42 GMT
Heres my current nid list. imgur.com/gallery/QivFNVECut the biovores and neuro for a second flyrant and bumping the genestealer squads to 20. Leaves you 100-200 ish points to play around with things, bump the hiveguard to 6. Yes you need bigger genestealer squads. I deploy everything on the board except the rippers. Have the venoms cover the flyrants, swarmy and genestealers. No matter what youll get one squad of 20 stealers in. Both of your flyrants should be able to blow a hole into the screen for your stealers.
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 10, 2018 7:26:55 GMT
Heres my current nid list. imgur.com/gallery/QivFNVECut the biovores and neuro for a second flyrant and bumping the genestealer squads to 20. Leaves you 100-200 ish points to play around with things, bump the hiveguard to 6. Yes you need bigger genestealer squads. I deploy everything on the board except the rippers. Have the venoms cover the flyrants, swarmy and genestealers. No matter what youll get one squad of 20 stealers in. Both of your flyrants should be able to blow a hole into the screen for your stealers. Best part- no list I've fought has a screen anymore! I've kept the GS at 18 mark to deny Reaper but otherwise play the same. I thought I've changed out the front page but I'll go back and check later. The new list is working way better now that I'm not relying on Genestealers to do the heavy lifting.
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Post by almostmercury on Jul 18, 2018 15:18:02 GMT
Unbelievable. I still play with a screen, granted it’s been shrinking. However, it’s been incredibly useful.
No scouts or rangers at all? Those are so cheap and troops you can’t afford not to bring them.
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 21, 2018 19:18:31 GMT
almostmercury yea there are scouts and rangers. They're mandatory troops, everyone wants CP. But I dont exactly count 15 Rangers spaced around to deny deepstrike a "screen". It's more liability than anything else. I got 2 games tested with the a New Genestealer Sling concept. I'm having issues with my old list because of the Castellan Dominus Knight; I CANT reach it with my current build. It's a lot less scarier than the Valiant chasis but the Valiant is usually danger close and within reach - the Castellan has been outside of my reach every game I've seen it or played against it. HG is forever out of reach and with the expected number of terrain going to be on the table, basically it will be impossible for HG to get within range without getting shot to death. HG are the top priority for everyone to kill. However, having removed the HG, the pressure has fallen back onto the GS to perform so I'm back to square one. Talk about headaches - every army I know and play against can basically maul a GS squad half to death T1. The additional Flyrant is OK, but it creates this problem where I give out max Monster Hunter, Max Headhunter, Max Kingslayer. Against a Castellan? I think I'm feeding intentionally now. I feel like HG are still the main carry of our codex in my situation. Flyrants are good but there's only so much they can do; today was the first game I was kited back for 3 turns in a row. Incidentally, it was a mirror match of 3 Flyrants vs 3 Flyrants, but mine were half melee while his were all shooty. He didnt hurt me a lot, but I could never reach him. Which is weird considering the 18" range and 16" movement - but it happened somehow. I think it has to do how I positioned my Flyrants to take out different parts of his army before that. If I had HG left to continue pressuring, he couldnt have kept flying backwards or he'd have to basically abandon all objectives(EDIT: This would have been true of my current build. I meant more like the HG could pressure him by constantly shooting at them and giving him the risk of a few lucky shots breaking open his Warlord, thereby keeping him locked into his corner or an unimportant corner of the map. The kiting aside, Flyrants are again decent but there's only so much they can do. You need to make charges on the drop and you need to roll like a God to hurt the big stuff. Melee is only *passable* as a HQ with MRC. Their main thing is just difficulty in killing (which I keep saying, but everyone seems convinced they're the be-all-end-all over again). My original plan for Castellans was to drop 3 Flyrants on it and charge to tie it up in combat - I did that today and lost a fresh Flyrant to Overwatch only. Not to mention most people are going to bring some really minimal wrap to stop deepstrikes, Deepstrike melee is NOT the answer. Flyrants may go back into the reject pile at this rate. I need to find a way to reintroduce HG into my list. Either through a T2 drop (I'm mostly playing T2 now anyway, T1 is a sit at max range and hope it's enough situation as is), or whatever. If only shockguard could perform decent against normal targets; but they're pretty terrible compared to Impalers. Ugh. I hate going back to the drawing board so often.
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 24, 2018 16:08:14 GMT
OK, I tested a bit more while trying to retain the Genestealers. I'm a little worried about there being too little terrain, it's a big problem. If I cant get out of my deployment zone because there's no real LOS blocker where I can hide a unit of HG relatively safely, the game is over. My last game basically solidified the mandatory playstyle against Knight lists - you gotta turtle and hit them hard at one go.
OOE showed a bit of promise, but the hoops you have to jump to get him to work is ridiculous. I gotta put my SL at risk and potentially getting instagibbed after launching OOE, and OOE himself doesnt do enough to kill a Knight. If he had sufficient shooting and smite support he would definitely deal the killing blow, but so would the SL with his extra mortals and 6A and rerollable. SL has a better chance of living, and can be hidden while still launching Genestealers across the map. OOE doesnt get this luxury. So OOE has to be dropped.
OOE and Broodlords could be a workable solution with a horde army, since everyone believes Hordes and tarpitting is the answer vs Knights. But not for ITC, it bleeds points too much.
Now, the games are at 1750, so as far as I can see, a 3 Knight list will only have 2 Shooting Knights, whether it be a Castellan + Crusader or 2 x Crusaders. A 2 x Gallant list can be handled well enough by a combination of smiting them when in range, dropping double HGs on them, then running Genestealers into them to finish up. Or SL. Basically, we have enough damage to kill a Knight (but potentially not a Castellan) but it requires everything getting into it. With the Knights standing at 40++" away, the only way to get them into range safely is to drop them. So... Jormungandr to the rescue.
Finally, we cant get enough damage with Impalers, due to the 3++ or 4++ most Knights will have. Shockguard are a necessity due to bypassing the invul and high mortal wound generation compared to smite. If we bring a unit of Shockguard + a unit of Impalers, we actually generate between 13-17 lost wounds a turn. Add Smite and a GS unit getting into it, we have a good chance. It's also relatively balanced against most targets with its autocannon stats, but generating more shots for cheaper I think. Autocannons only really work in huge numbers, this is the best way I can figure to actually bring the stats.
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Post by meeskmiser on Jul 24, 2018 20:39:44 GMT
okay so i dont know how but i royally messed up my first response. im finally gearing up for that game from my earlier post on the list thread, and now im second guessing my inclusion of OOE!! my current plan is to run all 6 of my HG models as shock cannons and then replace what would be impaler HG with a squad of biovores (of which i have 7 models). but this isnt against the dreaded castellan its the valiant and 2 gallants. going to see if mortal wound spam with a 36" not needing LOS biovores which i can either run around for better chance of spore mines or pick a spot out of sight to try and rain MW. Anyways, if you were running that GS sling at 2k points instead of 1750 what would it look like?
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