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Post by zimko on Nov 1, 2021 6:31:31 GMT
Cool, well I'd like to see some battle reports. When can you play with it?
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 1, 2021 10:20:58 GMT
First game prob this weekend on Tuesday - against Orks or BT. If its BT then I doubt its going to get to showcase its durability, BUT we get to test its melee resilience I think. Also, flyrant with ignore invul gets to show its mettle! I might try to arrange more games on Friday and Sunday too, the week after I'm intending to play nearly full mechanised Necrons. Any specific matchups you want to request? I can probably get a game with most list archetypes, other than AdM right now. zimkoEdit: also, list is finally up in first page properly. I still got all the names wrong though.
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Post by zimko on Nov 1, 2021 16:59:38 GMT
I'm always interested in the Drukhari matchup as it's something I face a lot.
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 2, 2021 19:10:29 GMT
Quick maths on TG: Assumed Maleceptor buffs + kitchen sink: 18A - 4+ rr exploding 6s, 9 hits (3x6s for 12), rerolling fails only because rerolling average the same (but can spike low). 4 more hits (1x6s) total of 17 hits. (Extra - +1 hit instead of Maleceptor, can reroll all hits to fish for 6s. 18A, (3x6s - so 6 hits first set). 15 dice reroll, 10 hits (average down 2 6s for extra 2) for total of 10+2+6 =18; barely better) T5 below: 17H, wounding on 2+ ; 14W. Ap-3 so nothing ignores, measure straight to invuls 4++ - 7 failed saves 5++ - 9 failed saves 6++ - 12 failed saves So this unit basically TOTALS any form of elites, even SoTs unless they use -1D. I am making a slightly unrealistic assumption than every damage will be 3 though with a reroll. Basically means that -1D armies will screw with the TG like hell - ie, DG Terminators who will murderize them in return. Its also sort of trashy (read: extremely trashy) into the DE matchup with bloodbrides and Wyches getting bounced off with that 4++ in combat. At least Wyches don't kill them well at least. But incubi will Murderize them so bad... everything else: 17H, 3+ to wound; 11W. Same considerations 4++ - 5FS 5++ - 7FS 6++ - 9FS Assumed max damage again cuz rerolling damage, that's some crazy output (which becomes very lacklustre without reroll damage). But it is also a 306pts unit. Possibly, a 5 man might be sufficient, making it a fine replacement for GS. Again though, -1D screws their calculations crazily bad, basically being not able to secure a kill vs Redemptors. Similarly vs GKDKs its close but can swing downwards a bit poorly and not secure the kill, which would be awkward because it's an auto return murderized. Against tyranid monsters, ork buggies, transports is ok but its completely overkill for the last one, and just about right for the first two. The problem I'm finding is literally that, OTHER THAN VS ORKS, anyone they get into or want to get into WILL murderize them. All of them have ap-3 that actually bypasses our ER, and they're almost all 3D or higher. Again the only exception (on combat units) I can think of are: - VanVets with 1D LCs - GK Interceptors with 2D, but will still get murderized from ap-3 and MWs instead - DG Termis with Flail or Scythe, but they'll STILL murderize them because ap-3 and damage spills over. I'm sure there is more but brain is half dead. And again I kind of hate myself for saying this. But almost any target the TG feel like they trade well into, doesn't a Haruspex (really, Kaze???) Actually do just as well and tanks better, at nearly half price discount? But cp expenditures... 6A - 4+ rr with exploding hits - 6H. S14 for 2+ wound, 5W. 4++ means 2 fails, 5++ is 3 fails, 6++ means 4 fails. Each fail is d6 damage, so it gets super swingy - but we can put it to average, for super Conservative. Or, 6A > 12A, 4+ rr with exploding hits. 6H + 3H +3H extra, so 12H. S7 reroll wounds (say T7) so 9W, but -1ap instead so usually at 4+ ; 4FS with d3. So its just enough to get the kill or a bit short. Assuming it's going into some kind of elite - we also get 2-3 Shovelling Claws out of the deal. As far as I'm concerned, that puts us squarely fair with TG on elites, and far behind on medium resilience models, but back to very close for 4++. If it was 3A for each instead of d3A, that would put it squarely ahead I think. Summary: TG get better the worst the invul is, at twice the cost. At a comparative price, TG actually do worse than a Haruspex. Which means, a TGs value lies heavily into its tankability- which is really good into anti- elite, but flounder horribly vs anti-tank. Key though. BOTH needs the same tools - Maleceptor is a must. SL is a must. Without a Maleceptor, NEITHER should be considered. I'm tempted to say the same about a Toxicrene even, but Toxi has other utilities. TG feel like they fit right into a MC heavier list. They have a unique durability as a ground holder, and can tussle well into slightly damaged enemy units. As long as whatever they want to charge dies, they won't suffer too poor a blowback. 5 guys also feels closer to the right price point and doesn't overkill as crazily. The only real issue with them, is that they take up the buff that HG needs to be super effective. And they're extremely weak to -1D, meaning they can't waddle into Dreadnoughts safely.
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Post by zimko on Nov 2, 2021 19:33:53 GMT
Thanks for doing this math since TG are a hot topic atm.
I think they're a nice alternative to genestealers that has it's own strengths/weaknesses to consider. It's a shame that the math doesn't work out so great without the Maleceptor's buff.
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Post by No One on Nov 3, 2021 4:06:22 GMT
even SoTs unless they use -1D. SoTs -1 D is shooting phase only. Also on the durability scale, SoT are pretty eh compared to alternatives. DG or DWK are basically just flat better, and t-guard suffer into both. Very unrealistic: it's essentially a 50/50 if you fully fish (5/9) Yeah, this basically feels like it: compared stealers they can hit similarly hard into a lot of multi-wound stuff with no damage negs, and tank way better into non-multi damage stuff with more damage sustain. But unless you've got the rest of the army also "competing" for the rest of the AT, that doesn't really help much.
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 6, 2021 16:45:23 GMT
Got my game vs BT. Boy, was I underprepared.
Gonna do a batrep like Stormcoils if I can, but just leaving main thoughts:
- reroll damage did me dirty. 12 shots of HG, 2 dead intercessors. Kept giving me 1 into 1s.
- Haruspex is Woo. Definitely has a good use case as a vs single model enemies, and a decent use case vs 5 man units. Double good with SL and maleceptor (almost consider it mandatory), but requires all that cp and investment to do well. Doesn't do well into multi-unit invuls either (but nothing in our line does), and whatever does well into multi'unit does well into single unit. Not going to be a mainstay for my army lists, but definitely usable in the right setup. I would say HG/TG/Haruspex is a good lineup with the Maleceptor.
- Not. Enough. Cp. Not when Heirodule wants 2cp for 3D, HG wants 3cp for Exploding Hits Double Shoot, and Maleceptor wants 2cp - only 3cp left for the melee portion.
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Post by No One on Nov 7, 2021 6:45:44 GMT
Doesn't do well into multi-unit invuls either (but nothing in our line does) Devilgants . I'm really liking how they just don't care about basically any defensive tool: hit negs? Barely care. Invuls? Nope. Damage negs? . It's only really T8 (or wounds negs) and 2+ that they care about. Also HG are just -2 so often just hitting invuls (if not just hitting, ignores invul flyrant). Something I'm...liking? about double HG is the 2nd one doesn't need any CP, and it still keeps up that output past running out of CP. Where as most/all of our other options really need it: the sort of exception is stealers who could probably get by with just hit rrs (but are basically one and done, so not being able to ensure they hit as hard as possible/possibly wanting consistent shooting over the game for transport popping etc...), and maybe some of the MCs outside patho.
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 7, 2021 20:14:20 GMT
OK, got my game done vs DE as well. I'm gonna try to do a batrep like stormcoil, complete with map and positionals - turn by turn and elaborations of my thought process as it goes on. I've taken pictures and taken basic notes of what happened, so will try to do it up in a new thread somewhere maybe. Or on reddit, if I ever make an account.
I can give the summary here though:
Vs BT:
Nids went 2nd, BT brought a thick block of Bladeguards, a thick block of Terminators, some fast VanVets, 1 unit of Metal Attack Bikers, and 5 Assault Hellblasters. It's not particularly fasts - took 2 turns to get to me. But it is consistent. BT has a 3+d3" advance rerollable, and a +2" to charge; they will 100% make it into midfield on T1 with an all but guaranteed 10-12" movement on T1, then a 6+2+2D6" rerollable charge. That means within 2 turns they have the same type of charge threat a unit of Genestealers have. Normally, all this means is fire heavily into them and kill them - would be true for another army, maybe AdM. But Nids doesnt have the right kind of fire volume. This entire BT army is 5++, plus 1s and 2s to wound automatically fail - S8 guns lose their main advantage. The 5++ makes our AP-3 lose their main advantage. Behind this, they have access to a 5+++ litany, a 6+++ aura from 2 sources, Apothecary jank, and natural 5+++ vs Mortal Wounds. Bladeguard are 2+ sv; Terminators are 1+ sv. In addition to this, BT allows their random models, whether sergeant or just normal, to pick up upgrades with some really good effects - the Terminators had -1D permanent, and the Bladeguard had ignore ap-1/2.
AC Flyrant only takes Terminators up to 4+, and BGV to 5+. Barbed gets ignored vs BGV, and does 1-2D vs Terminators, who get a 3+ sv against him anyway. Add that the natural advantages of S8 are ignored. I've never felt the lack of Genestealers more keenly than I did this match.
Adding insult to injury, I lost half the HG squad early - terrain was tilted towards centre, so a flank deployment from the BT player to gamble for T1 where Assault Hellblasters could get an angle on my HG if he made a big advance. I thought I was safe, as only the Melta-Bikers can reach me (and that flank had the singular 1 melta bike, I can afford to lose 1 HG). I also forgot that those were ASSAULT hellblasters, so basically misjudged how far they could go and still shoot me (I do note afterwards reading that BT seem to have a strategem that allows them to advance move and shoot rapidfire guns without penalty or something; need to recheck later. But the Hellblasters get more shots as Assault ones anyway.) The meltas basically ignored my defenses by throwing 4+ rerollables into my face, getting (nearly) all hits, then 5+ rr1s into my face, getting all wounds. I failed a normal amount (3 saves out of 5), and took 12 damage. I might have forgotten to FNP - cant remember. Surprisingly, the Redemptor with S9 didnt wound me at all, so I guess the dice did swing back, but if it hadnt, I would have lost Barbed in top of T1. This is the inherent risk of all of our 18W monsters to be fair - SM still has effective guns, and the problems are probably even more exemplified in AdM chicken hunting.
With 3 HG left I figured they could still do decent - take out 3 Intercessors, the lone bike, maybe the almost dead Hellblaster squad (the Hellblaster squad killed 3 of its own to kill 3 HG - little did I know they would do more damage to themselves than I do to them), depending on how does everything else do. I shot reroll hits, exploding hits, and reroll damage; 6 shots, 3 hits no 6s reroll into 3 hits no 6s, Transhuman for 3 wounds (luckily), 1 save for 2 failed, 1dmg into 1dmg. I decided to commit because 1: I recognize I cannot touch those 2 bricks in the center and his flank will all but demolish me, and 2: I had moved my Warriors with double move into that side of the board's objectives, and needed to own the obj to take him down 5 pts and stranglehold. Double shoot committed, the exact same thing happened and I killed a grand total of 2 intercessors for 1 CM reroll, a S.Link, and 3cp of buffs. The Heirodule did much better - without the ability to interact with his Termi/BGV brick, I decided to take out his shooting as much as I could, so threw full weight into the Melta Bikers - of all the nonsense, his 6+++ actually ended up saving him enough that the last biker survives with 2 wounds. And since this is SM, that's 2 Bikers next turn with full wounds. So yea, his Hellblasters did more damage to him than I did for much less cost.
The last core was the mortal wounds, which was where I was betting on in order to break through SM in general, or as support damage over a few turns. I forgot BT has a 5+++ vs mortals, and has a litany that turns an entire unit into a Culexus, nullifying ALL psychic aimed at them. Which means a Redemptor or a Vanvet or a Terminator in my face eats all my smites and takes 0 damage, but if you manage to manuveur around it, you're having to deal with: 2 denies at +1 deny, and a strategem of 24" for deny on a 4+, and then a 5+++ for whatever damage you managed to deal. Approximately 1/3 of my damage is planned around MWs - Smites and Scream of course, but also Haruspex getting into combat, acid blood, and exploding on them for flat 3; getting a 5+++ and 2 easier denies to stop an army that have less inherent advantages to casting is a hard shutdown.
And the worst kicker was, the AC Flyrant had an opportunity to take out Helbretch; dont know if it was a worthwhile shot, but the opportunity and the possibility was there. 5A reroll to wounds on 5+ save for 4D on a 8W model (8Ws for a human, seriously???) with Fight and Fight on Death, it was quite probable. Except I failed an 8" charge. So the Flyrant, instead of getting into the enemy and wrecking stuff before getting clobbered, basically just stood there as a target and got murderized by TH Terminators.
At the end of the game, I actually found myself agree-ing heavily about the redeploy; with only 2 shooting units that are flexible-ish, they cant afford to be taken out so early. To the point I think that 2nd Adapt is less valuable than that redeploy that 1: allows us to set up units for aggressive T1 play or 2: just free reserves. I'm considering quite heavily just possibly using the reserves to bail out the Heirodule if there's a bunch of melta or lascannons on the enemy side (which will inevitably mean HG end up dying).
A few other important lessons I found:
1. The AC Flyrant is a good pickup going into other armies - but it just cant deal with the raw defensive prowress of Terminators and BGV. In fact, I dont think we have anything that actually deals with them at all - the best bet is, yet again, Genestealers. Add the fact that most other armies, the difficult to kill HQ will usually have a 2+ sv, the Flyrant needs to find itself into an easier to kill target and take it out, get the extra ap for another 2?cp, get to safety to not die, then come back again for round 2 against the intended target - that's SO MANY HOOPS and SO MUCH RESOURCES to burn for what he's supposed to do, and I feel like we can safely relegate the AC Flyrant to the annals of failed experiments. Maybe in the new codex when Monstrous Bone Swords are ap-3 base, and Flyrants have 6A or 12A. Because, you know, 3A per arm seems to be the norm for HQs that can do combat.
2. Melee "countercharge" doesnt seem very good if a: the unit in question costs 200 or nearly 200 pts and does nothing for a turn or 2 when waiting for the enemy to come near, b: it cant reach the opponent when the opponent is about to reach you, c: it dies before it gets to do anything. The Haruspex got my last 3cp for interrupt and reroll hits; 6A 5 hit 4W 3Failed 2Dead BGVs. If it was a normal BGV I might have gone for no interrupt, just take the damage, and then reroll hit reroll wound and try with the base weapon. But these BGV ignored ap-1/2, and had a Sgt with +1S +1A (the S doesnt matter), and another +1S from Helbretch; if it wasnt T8 it would have been an equivocal slaughter at S7, but considering that unit hits with 3A base + 1 Shock Assault, on a 5 man unit, that's 20A, +1 for Sgt +1 for upgrade, that are reroll to hit, and then wounding on 5+ but ap-3 and 2D each; I figured the Haruspex was dead, so if I was going to swing, I had to interrupt. Basically, melee in our list is too slow without Onslaught (and the constant risk of 4+ deny here was a big problem to rely on Onslaught to get to combat), and even Genestealers were at risk considering how much space you had to cross but how little you have to hide behind.
3. I carried too many "tools" that took away cp, without giving me consistent results. If I had spent the 2cp on +1D (but srsly this should be a 1cp strategem, why is it so expensive!?) when I shot the bikes, it would have killed it; I faced a similar dilemma later on with DE. But spending the 2cp on Haruspex for example gave me very little - spending the 3cp on HG also gave me very little. The Maleceptor S.Lk had NEGATIVE impacts, often rerolling 2s into 1s or 1s into more 1s. This is of course luck - but if that was the case, I would rather work with more wounds or just work with minimal investments in the unit and again shifting power somewhere else. Investing so much into the HG reaped me very little returns over both games.
4. Building on no.3, we just dont have enough CP to do 2 phases well. We can only really do well in 1 phase - build to excel in the 1 phase we want to be good in, with some but not major commitment into the others.
5. The army still needs some form of speed - I got run over by BT because 1: I was too slow to evade his marching army (which was admittedly quite fast for how tanky it is) and couldnt reposition myself or kite him, and I desperately needed to kite and chew away his edges. Forcing him to split may not buy me much of an advantage, but it's still a majority melee army with 2 big bricks and 1 relatively mobile unit. He doesnt have the kind of "sit back and afk" objectives that DA can pick up. Or, I need to be all over the board and can shift focus to either side whenever I want - which is do-able with double HG basically, as well as with Gaunt Carpets or Genestealer Sling lists.
Going into the next game with DE, I promptly removed the anti-melee of Flyrant and Haruspax, and went with Genestealers + a Broodlord instead. Instead of a 2nd Adaptation, I tried out the redeploy wlt in addition to rerolling. I thought about using the Broodlord S.Link, but decided against it since 1: I already had a Malanthrope if I needed the Dense, 2: I didnt have anything particularly tanky enough to benefit from it, 3: I still wanted to try this 3d6 cast thing.
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Vs. DE:
Nids went first. I played against a relatively more novice DE player, but he was backed by the usual DE(read: All Aeldari) player I play/discuss with, as his coach that came in and out to advise or to fix mistakes. It's not bleeding edge competitive, but it wasnt a crapshot.
However, he did make a very crucial mistake - he deployed to go first and try to win the game from there. It should have been a complete dominating win for me since I got to go first instead, but my dice were bad, it happens.
Anyway, the redeploy is pretty amazing - it let me deploy a trap for him where I placed my HG behind cover on the line, well within Raider T1 charge range. The rest of the army deployed along the line as well (this was Dawn of War, Scorched Earth map) but with things like Genestealers behind buildings, Monsters/Zoeys placed ahead taking up space, Warriors taking up space, then the Devilgants along behind. Raiders move 14+8" on T1, meaning they get 22" of movement on the line, and get a big and relatively easy charge on you on T1; about 30", which gives you 4" of space at the back of your deployment where its unlikely that he can reach you. IF he had gotten T1, I would have redeployed the HG somewher else; probably behind the big blob of Genestealers right at the back of the map. But since I got to go first, and he had huddled his Raiders at the opposite end of the map from my HG, he was within average reach of Devourer Gaunts; so I took the opportunity to try them out, and swapped the Warriors with Devilgants and immediately sent them up with reroll to hit.
T1 went a lot more poorer than I expected though. Without the Reroll to Hit, the HG shot at a Raider and had 4+ to hit, getting through 9d after saves. The gaunts rolled low on the advance, then rolled a 3 on the reroll, getting around 2/3 of the unit in range only. I got greedy with the Barbed, and split-fire his 2 guns into 2 different Raider, trying to crack both - got pretty close on one (another 9d dealt), but wiffed hard on the 2nd one (did only 3d). The Devilgant unit in place actually could fire on these two raiders, but in the wrong ratio; only 10 could reach the 7W left one, and another 14 could reach the 1W left one. So I poured fire into them respectively - and wouldnt you know it, the one with 1W left had to take 10 saves, while the one with 7W left had to take 0 (20+ dice, not a single 5+; that skew was painful).
So I was in a really precarious situation where I had 2 injured raiders, 2 full raiders, and only 1 with its contents out on the table. The infantry once they're out on the table is extremely easy to kill from range - and my HG, having set a trap, was now at risk of accidentally springing it from a fresh Raider. Since my Devgant unit could not get enough value, I had to double shoot the HG instead and take out the Raider with full and a Raider with 1W; and wouldnt you know it, splitting 2HG into the 1W raider, 4 shots 3x 1s, 1s to wound. Reroll the wound into another 1. 8 shots into the other one on 3+; 7 hit, 5 wounds, 4 failed saves, 2>1;1>1;3;2>2. At least he could not longer reach me due to pleb.
His T1 was recovery - the Devilgants were exposed, so he took the opportunity to try and charge them and take them out of the game. He was advised to, and hence did, try to flood the midboard with the raiders and his exposed infantry, trying to overwhelm me. He made the charge on the Devilgants, hence taking them out for the turn. Having full rerolls, I decided to overwatch against the incoming reavers - bit unfortunate, as they are T5 with the combat drug, and hence had 5+ to wound; I got 17 hits from rerolling 6s, and 1 wound. This seems to be a theme for these guys...
My T2 I poured all my available resources into the HG again; reroll to hit, exploding hits, reroll damage. The Barbed Heirodule this time I did not spend the 2cp for 3D (which I regretted again just like the first game) when it failed to kill the injured raider with 7W left near my gaunts; left it on 1W again. The raiders on my HG side were both popped though (1 through smite 1 through Barbed), throwing out 20 models getting out of destroyed vehicles - and only 1 died. Hmmm. So my HG shot everything into it - 3+ (no Lightning Reflex came up) rerolling all scored only 10 hits, with 1 explode after rerolls. then, 3x1s! for wounding! one save, 6 dead, 1 from explode, 3 models remaining. Second volley did marginally better, with no failed wounds, taking out 9. So I had TWO SUCCUBUS BEING PROTECTED BY THREE BLOODBRIDES. Trying to maximize and tie up the succubus with the Barbed, I charged the Bloodbrides, trying to bait the HI or just tag it once I killed the bloodbrides - 4A, 2+ 2+; 3x1s to hit, then 1s to wound. Then, the Bloodbrides pass morale so none run.
His T2 could have been ugly for me - the succubus now had free reign. One went on the HG, and I was pretty sure they would be dead. The other went after the Malanthrope, which would also likely kill it. Scourges dropped to kill my Devilgants - The incubi now had run and charge, and were gunning for my Genestealers that I set up to do the same to them (it was a long adv+charge due to pipes -2"; but if he rolled high, he may have made it. If he tried and failed, I'd have him.). I had to call it here because I got called suddenly for dinner with my gf's family, but I was about to lose a lot from some bad dice and some mistakes made at the begining of the game from greed. It wouldnt have meant a loss - based on objectives, he had ROD that he had to do which he only had 1 quarter and no way to access quarter 3 and 4 in time. No Prisoners would have scored medium, as he'd kill the devilgants and the Genestealers and the HG, but hadnt yet killed Rippers, Zoeys, and Warriors to score the remaining 3/10 or so. and his Last was Herd The Prey - he'd score 4 on T2, then 2/2/2 for the remainder, for another 10, if even that. Primaries I would be in the lead, as the Maleceptor and the Barbed could easily kill the 2 succubus once they were done with the HG and Malanthrope, and his flank on that side was completely empty.
Some things I learnt:
1. Devilgants just. Are so hard to make them work on the table, but if they ever get their ideal targets (T3-T4, 3+ saves or worse), it does bloody miracles. I'm really on the side of we need 2 of them - at least 1 in the sky to come down when required. Referring back to my maths, 30 shooting with the kitchen sink will do 10d after saves to Terminators. Even begin able to kill 3/5 BGV or Terminator before double shoot is a big deal, since it's done at "safe" range. I dont think we need Genestealers as back up melee, because quite frankly, without Swarmlord to move things around, and that explode requires 2cp, it's expensive and it's a 1 use missle that has space issues and is unwieldy to use. Going on the defensive, I am a bit keen to drop melee altogether and just rely on mid to short range shooting to get the job done. It's just, we all know what happens to armies that have 0 melee countercharge whatsoever, and it's not pretty. Unless, I get a Trygon Prime to give me fall back and shoot (which is starting to sit really far out on the fringes, honestly).
2. Maleceptor buff is supposed to be supportive - it hasnt been supportive. Ignoring the 6s to wound which is a small buff that comes in handy occassionally, the damage reroll has not help me score the kills I need. In fact, every time it has been present, I'd wish I had more dice to roll; ie having more failed saves, by nature of having more hits and wounds.
3. I feel the need for ap-3; especially with these ignore ap-1/2 nonsense coming out of Sisters, Marines in some cases, and Nids now that they are more meta. The Barbed Heirodule has been a great service for my lists and has been in fact a top performer regardless of most circumstances, but I am honestly considering moving the Exocrene back in for ap-3, and to buy me another 100 points. It's worse into the Ork matchup sadly, but the only other real consistent ap-3+ that we can pull would be mass number of Genestealers and pray for rends. And I dont even like the Exocrene that much since it also has a tendency to bounce off invuls too. Honestly, the answer to this just seems to be "bring more mid STR high AP 1D guns", which dont exist in our codex (or most people's codex).
4. I need to stop being greedy. Greed on T1 of the DE game nearly cost me the game.
5. Warriors do a decent job of pushing out to midfield and holding objectives - 5 mans wont survive a lot, but they survive more than people expect. Having multiple units of 5 that have LWBS to just go and kick about weaker flanks would probably work decently well.
6. Two games, my investment in my HG actually brought me back nothing. The exploding hits gave me 3 extra hits over 6 times shooting; that's half a shot every time I shoot. This is just bad investment at that point, and I am definitely not spending anymore cp on HG in this way. I need to find a better target for exploding hits to make use of. Preferably, a better target for reroll hits too, but I dont see that happening unless we go heavy into Warrior/Devilgant builds (not exactly interchangeable, but a rerolling to hit Warrior unit with Deathspitters doesnt do too poorly in my head; kills maybe 3 intercessors, will definitely do a number on normal troops), or Genestealer/melee builds.
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The game is pushing hard for double HG builds. It's the most obvious and easiest answer to "make use of our new tools". I still hate it, and want to find something else that works. For the time being, since the Maleceptor is just showing itself to not give great value, I am not high on it being an integral part of the list, and will be removing it. Therefore, the list concept changes from defensive to aggressive, and to see how we can push output without relying on the easy magic button of spam HG.
For the record, I think spamming HG is a straight forward build - 1 HG in Kronos with Warriors, 1 HG in Leviathan with fatter Warriors, Swarmlord with 2x Genestealers, and 1 Devilgant in the sky. Prime to round out, Lictors/Rippers to score ROD or Engage, or even just go straight Stranglehold with the Stealers. Use the double HG with exploding hits to whittle opponents or crack transports, then send a Genestealer unit in a turn with reroll hits and auto-wound on 6s. On an impact turn, bring in the Devilgant with lictor, or along a board edge. On T3 send the Warriors, in ,then T4 SL joins the fray himself. And if it's Orks? Reserve both Genestealer units, and weather with HG. And if its AdM, defensive list wouldnt have worked anyway.
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 7, 2021 22:13:43 GMT
Really quick on hormagants: 60A, rerolling 4+ to hit auto wound 6s 60A, 30 hits, 10x6s (50 hits so far) 30 rerolls, 15 hits, 5x6s (50+15+10) total 75 hits. 15 auto-wounds. 75H, 5+ to wound, is 25W. 50fails rr1s - 12 rrs, 4 more. So 44 saves. 2+ - 7d 3+ - 14d 4+ - 22d Question is can u get 30 bodies within range of the target. Recent experimentation is... no. The gamestate seldom supports 30 bodies getting into ideal position, unless there are infiltrators to eat. 15 Genestealers with rr hit, 6s auto wound only: 60A, 3+ rr - 40 hits. 20 rr - 14 hits. 54 hits total. 10x6s + 3x6s, 13 autowounds (should be 15 still but take as is...) 54 - 13, 41. 41/2 = 20. EDIT: 20 saves - 13 ap-1 (+13 again), 7 ap-4. So vs Stormshield Terminators - 6 d vs 7d from Hormagants. Vs BGV - 11d vs 7d. Vs marines - 20d vs 14d - the comparison is a bit off because of the lack of exploding hits on GS. But basically, buffed Hormagants do more comparable damage the better the save is - however, Acid Maws throws this off quite severely, as Acid Maws are a straight upgrade compared to Rending Claws. In the marine matchup, you always want Genestealers. FURTHER EDITS: So we determined that Genestealers are always better when it comes to Marines. What about Ork profiles of T5 bodies and T6 vehicles? Hormagants: 60A, rerolling 4+ to hit auto wound 6s 60A, 30 hits, 10x6s (50 hits so far) 30 rerolls, 15 hits, 5x6s (50+15+10) total 75 hits. 15 auto-wounds. T5 bodies - 75H, 5+ to wound, is 25W. 50fails rr1s - 12 rrs, 4 more. So 44 saves. Assumed 6++, 37d; assumed 6+++, 31 dead. (jesus what. Hormagants just trade into 30 Ork Boyz?? Is this for real?) T6 bodies - 75H, 6+ to wound, is 12.5W. 62.5 fails rr1s - 12 rrs, 2 more. So round up, 30 saves. 4+Sv, 15d total. Genestealers: 12A +48A, rerolling 3+ to hit auto wound 6s. 12A + 48A, (from old TLDevs I think its 10.6H, but just round up to 11) 11H + 42H, (round up 3 + round down 10 auto wounds) T5 bodies - 8H + 32H, 5+ to wound, is (round up again) 3W + (round up) 11W. So a total of 6W + 21W. assumed all 6++ and 6+++; so 27, 23 fails; 19 dead. T6 bodies - 8H + 32H, 5+ to wound, is (round up again) 3W + (round up) 11W. So a total of 6W + 21W(10 rends). 6W+10W no saves; then 11 more at 5+, which leads to 7 more damage. So 23d total. SUMMARY - Basically, Hormagants will not total 2 Buggies in a unit, and Genestealers overkills 2 at nearly equivalent points. Honestly the Acid Maws make a huge difference, I should have accounted for it last night. But that bit with Hormagants killing 30 Ork Boyz caught me totally by surprise. It's not going to be a common build. at all. But it's nice to know. WHAT ABOUT - HEAR ME OUT: DG Marines and Terminators? Hormagants: 60A, rerolling 4+ to hit auto wound 6s 60A, 30 hits, 10x6s (50 hits so far) 30 rerolls, 15 hits, 5x6s (50+15+10) total 75 hits. 15 auto-wounds. T5 bodies - 75H, 5+ to wound, is 25W. 50fails rr1s - 12 rrs, 4 more. So 44 saves. 3+Sv for PMs give us, round up to 15d (or 14d, following my earlier stuff). 2+Sv for Terminators gives us 7d like normal Terminators. Genestealers: 12A +48A, rerolling 3+ to hit auto wound 6s. 12A + 48A, (from old TLDevs I think its 10.6H, but just round up to 11) 11H + 42H, (round up 3 + round down 10 auto wounds) T5 bodies - 8H + 32H, 5+ to wound, is (round up again) 3W + (round up) 11W. So a total of 6W + 21W(10 rends). Against PMs, that's 20d (so against normal marines it must be like 24 or 25); against Terminators, that's about 12d. No Need to do 1kSons Terminators; those are basically Stormshield Terminators for us. WHAT ABOUT - META SETTERS: DE Wyches, Incubi, Mandrakes, Wracks, and Grotesques?Hormagants: 60A, rerolling 5+ to hit auto wound 6s 60A, 20 hits, 10x6s (40 hits so far) 40 rerolls, 13 hits, 6x6s (40+13+12) total 65 hits. 16 auto-wounds. ( ??) 65H, 4+ to wound, 32W. 33 fails, rr1s; 11 rerolls, 5 extra wounds. 53W total. Incubi - 3+Sv, that's 18 rounded up. Incubi can make you fight last based on Ldship roll off - we are going to lose this. Do not attempt unless you have casted Paroxysm on the unit, and honestly it's just complete overkill. 18d IS TWO NEARLY FULL INCUBI UNITS! At this point I rather just shoot them safely! Wyches - 4++ Sv, that's 26d, which is still overkill on a full unit of wyches, or on 2 separate units. I'm liking this - very efficient. Trading slightly, veeeery slightly upwards. Mandrakes - 5++Sv, that's pointless to count overkill. Frankly I think this can be done even without exploding hits - 60A, 20H, 10auto wounds, 40 rerolls, 13 extra hits, for 33 hits and 16 auto wounds. From the auto wounds alone the mandrakes are dead, and the natural wounds cause another 10 or a bit less; sadly cant kill 2 units, but can overkill 1. But tbf, it's highly unlikely someone stacks 2 of them together. Wracks and Grotesques - They're 6+ 6++ 5+++ based, but I will just consider them 6+ 5++ 5+++. We can use the Orks one for comparison. 20d on Wracks, 13d on Grotesques. Genestealers: 60A, rerolling 4+ to hit auto wound 6s 60A, 30 hits, 10x6s 30 rerolls, 15 hits, 5x6s. So total of 45H. 15 auto wound. Considering the save function only matters for Incubi, and we consider 5++ anyway just in case late Power from Pain, elected to ignore Acid Maws again; just add like 3w or 4w more to Incubi. Also some inefficiency - auto wound isnt great to use once we're looking at 3+ to wound, if my memory of Necrons math is right. It's not negative per se, but we can do better with 2+ to hit instead of auto wounds vs DE. Of course, +1 to hit is going on guns, so that's a moot point. 30H, wounding on a 3+, 20W; total of 35W. Round up 9 Rends, and 26 normals Incubi - 3+ Sv, so 19d total; it's again a total overkill. Two units down. At Ld9, it's less likely we'd get screwed with Fight Last; something like a 30% chance of success. Still not the best option, because dice spikes means we're in trouble. Paroxysm first still if possible, and since we can only target 1 unit (which will be prob only 5 guys, not 10), it's better to just shoot them dead. NOT GONNA LIE - Incubi are basically better Genestealers with 1 less A but better weapon profile. Drazhar makes them a beast with +1 to wound; can you imagine our Genestealers wounding marines on 2+? and WS2+ natural makes up for the -1A. It reminds me again about how poorly our units are fighting into newer incarnations - but at the very least, we're no longer overpriced garbage, considering Incubi are also 3pts more than GS are for a T3 model. Wyches - 4++ Sv, so just straight up half. 17d. it's enough that a full wych unit will die to morale, but do need to be rather careful on it since 3 wyches punching back kills probably a little less than half our unit. Mandrakes - 5++Sv, so that's about 20w dealt. Yet again pointlessly overkilled. Wracks and Grotesques - again using the Orks as reference. 27W, assumed all 5++ and 5+++; so 18F, and 12d on both. It is now 3.40am, and I still have a board paper I am procrastinating on. Moving on to AdM tomorrow, then doing a final on GS + auto wounds vs GS + +1 instead.
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Post by zimko on Nov 7, 2021 22:49:34 GMT
You're also forgetting to calculate the acid maws separately.
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Post by No One on Nov 8, 2021 13:00:56 GMT
1. The AC Flyrant is a good pickup going into other armies - but it just cant deal with the raw defensive prowress of Terminators and BGV. In fact, I dont think we have anything that actually deals with them at all - the best bet is, yet again, Genestealers. Add the fact that most other armies, the difficult to kill HQ will usually have a 2+ sv, the Flyrant needs to find itself into an easier to kill target and take it out, get the extra ap for another 2?cp, get to safety to not die, then come back again for round 2 against the intended target - that's SO MANY HOOPS and SO MUCH RESOURCES to burn for what he's supposed to do, and I feel like we can safely relegate the AC Flyrant to the annals of failed experiments. Maybe in the new codex when Monstrous Bone Swords are ap-3 base, and Flyrants have 6A or 12A. Because, you know, 3A per arm seems to be the norm for HQs that can do combat. I think there's a lot more invul units than 2+ and invul, with the additional caveat that most invul units are rocking (at minimum *looks at servant/Custodes cap/Draigo*) invul 1-2 less than their armour, so AP+ignores invul pushes to a net -1 on sv. The extra AP is 1 CP, but that feels far more like a 'nice to have': outside e.g. storm shield+termi armour (which is fairly rare), you're pushing to a 5+ or 6+, you'll usually need at most 2 wounds through (sometimes only 1 with implant or if you're lucky tail to finish), so...yeah. It's not perfect, sometimes you'll flub because 5 attacks, or they could spike the lucky save, but there's not really any hoops needed outside of Swarmlord/onslaught for more offensive threat ranges, rather than counter charge. Find target, charge target, kill target: is it 100% reliable? Nope. Is it worth it with that unreliability and high cost? Eh: I've found it can be just game winning with Swarmlord, because the threat range is really good (this is just a comment on super flyrant in general: ignores invuls doesn't change this hugely, but it does open your target selection a bit). Still worth now we've got some strong general output tools? I'll keep it in for the moment, but so far not feeling auto include for sure. I'm glad I got my greed out of my system in a prac game against myself . T2 first test I was able to split fire perfectly, pop 2 boats perfectly and get some damage to contents (though not much, it helped) and blend the contents with stealers. Then next turn I split fired again and failed to pop the important boat until too late I realised that popping it with double tap helps me not at all, because emergency disembark and I had nothing to touch the contents. Hopefully shouldn't be doing that again. Ref said testing, I was able to position them such that they'd have LoS on anything coming straight at me (rather than going via a corner LoS blocker, where they'd need an extra turn to stage for most things): tested what happens when DE didn't do that, was a bloodbath. 3/5 raiders+most of the contents killed (2 chars left) for 5 CP and stealers+devilgants being in a dead (but still being a nuisance) position. Of course, I don't see this ever working into blackheart raiders going 2nd. The thing with this is...well, I'm not sure that on board with all that other stuff that needs to hide really works, especially since they're fairly vulnerable to tagging (you could possibly do some coherency shenanigans, but that's unreliable). So you'd need to be considering strat reserving both, which is 1-4 CP depending on delivery (i.e. committing to using both WLT redeploy on putting things in reserve feels eh, you'll often need to use BR3 strat or lictor for delivery), and then 1 CP to be good for explodes. You're now not really ahead of stealers, and I'd argue behind if you can't spend CP, because stealers can at least get links and/or swarm leader, though obviously relying a lot on Swarmlord for delivery isn't great: but interrupt means melee threats are generally a 1/turn anyway, so...I think it's sort of fine? If you can reliably start a squad on board and have it shoot before dying, that'd be great, but I'm not seeing it. Exploding hits on HG feels like...not necessarily a trap, but far from auto use. Only if you're planning on double tapping and something important really needs to die now. Otherwise just save the CP for flurry on something else, or just double tap (or util strats). It's a 20-25% damage buff (link or rrs), which is fine, but not as good as a double tap (40-50% for 2 CP vs 100% for 2 CP) or a 50-67% increase for stealers/devilgants (though stealers is 2 CP, so it's reasonably comparable there, but stealers are one and done so you want to maximise damage). Also, don't full rr to fish for 6s unless you're stealers and have a link: otherwise you're sacrificing hits on average (e.g. HG it's 1/6*2+1/2=0.83 for a hit roll: if you rr a hit you go from 1 hit to 0.83 hits). I was very confused as to why you were getting so different numbers (I've got 10 vs 6.4 into SS termis, or 13.3 into BGV: that's with 'perfect' acid ratio, which you can't have at 15 stealers, but whatever, you don't want 15 stealers over 16 just to be exact same pts as 30 horms ). And while acid is a large part of it: You also forgot your auto wounds (or normal non rends) . Should be 33 saves total. I mean, that's without stealer CP, so it's 1 CP instead of 0 CP. IIRC I did caveat that with not having looked at invuls . ATM it's basically just a pile of different methods to calculate hit/wounds, and then it's fairly easy to just copy down with different armour saves. Should probably just do with different save combos (suggestions?), but mainly wanted to see if prime bonus losing you rending impacted into e.g. 2+ too heavily to be worth it (it doesn't though does come close on RC, but not super relevant, esp since straight 2+ is rare, and acid maws are straight benefit).
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 8, 2021 19:58:26 GMT
No One It was 6am, I think I made a lot of mistakes. XD The Acid Maws I left out on purpose, but the impact is actually pretty noticeable, I shouldnt have left it out. Ref AC Flyrant - We originally took Super Flyrant as a way to deal with Centurions. He can double down as anti-Flier and such as well - it only really bounces against Invuls. I thought the AC Flyrant should be somewhat similar, but the fact that he can fail to hit (5A, 2x1s; happens to my SL too many times in general) and has a harder time wounding (S7 isnt too bad though at least) makes it feel a little bit, like you say, unreliable. I'm also not finding that many beatstick characters I need to go up against, and although he kills support characters even with invuls really well, he doesnt trade well into any sort of Elites with 4++; they're all 2+ save now, and he's more likely than not trading super downwards on characters, unless it was a super lynchpin character like say, Silent King; Drazhar; some Chapter Master. He's still trading down, but at least the impact would be big enough that it is worth the sacrifice. I think he's still a decent character killer - 2+ save means it goes to 5+, which is dangerous on the swingy side, but at 4D each, very few characters will survive an encounter, and even other Monstrous Characters like other Flyrants, Discolords, etc have to play it safe with it. It just does poorly into the most common elites I'm likely seeing, such as: BGV, SS Termi's, thick buggies! you know, the stuff he doesnt really want to get into cuz he gets stuck and doesnt have enough Attacks to work with.
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 18, 2021 13:03:04 GMT
New list for the weekend!
I believe its pretty bad - my terrain prob won't support it. But I just want to play destroyers with the new changes.
There's some potential there definitely - giving them CORE gives the main benefit on Technomancers. If Szeras was ws&bs +1 instead of just bs+1, there would be a lot of good lists involving him and Lychguard, Destroyers, Praetorians. As it stands, the only list that might plausibly work well with him are Novokh Immortals or Warriors, even if I really want to do cross-dynasty to take advantage of his Agent status.
HLD are also in a weird place- they're an extremely good target for MWBD, great for technomancers to get value, but don't get enough done to really justify big resources for them. They're as incidental as it gets, IMO, but really need an invul.
Necrons -
Novokh Outrider
No Org - 2x2 cryptothralls - 1x1 plasmacyte HQ - Technomancer: CCN, FSO - Chronomancer: HMA Elites - 1x6 skor. Dest. FA - 2x6 Wraiths - 1x6 Ophydians
Mephrit patrol HQ - Anrakyr - chronomancer Troop -1x20 Reaper Warriors HS -1x3 HLD: Gauss -1x3 HLD: Enmitic
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 20, 2021 4:26:24 GMT
Got mah game in. Vs Freebooterz Orks with 3 Kill Rigs, 2 wazboms, assortment of buggies. Jesus christ those scrapjets are insane.
List has major problems into them - other than the skorpekh and Anrakyr, nothing hits at S8. Ramshackle really killed me hard - wraiths go from decent to completely useless. So I had to rely on either the HLD doing good work or the skorpekh surviving into combat.
The HLD just dieded to planes and 'eavy lobbers, and didn't do a great deal before dying. The anti tank gun took 10w off a plane, the other gun was out of range so took 6W off a mek gun, then promptly died to planes and a surprise teleporting car.
Managed to eke out a win just by being annoying with wraiths. He fed me a killrig that got decimated by anrakyr and skorpekh. New CORE revive really helps Technomancer make back its points, really easily. I think I revived 2 models the entire game though, but it did enough work.
Ophydians are so one and done. Like, 210pts drop down and then eat a tonne of damage - they will hardly ever make back their points imo. They lose too much compared to Skorpekh to justify them. Maybe, as a tiny unit to harass sidelines - they do kill intercessors good, and can kill not tanky stuff ok. But not a big block, unless I can figure out some other way to make it work...
New list concept - making use of Disruption Field and Command Protocols to achieve S8 threshold. Can do this in any Dynasty, but only Szarekhan can get it consistently when they need it with WLT. If I run wraiths mostly, I also heavily benefit from Szarekhan relic on two counts - protocol of void gives me ap-3 on 6s to wound, and the important +1S to get S8. Undying Legion is also a good deal with 2w LM and reroll a reanimation. Szarekhan also helps with our mortal enemy, mortal wounds and psykers.
Skorpekh is also a consideration, but each needs its own chronomancer and we can only really get 1 to be actually tanky.
Szarekhan Patrol - Canoptekmancer - 5 Immortals - 2x6 Wraiths - 1x6 Skorpekh
Szarekhan Patrol - Anrakyr - 2x Chronomancers - 1x20 Reaper Warriors - 2x3 HLDs with Gauss - cryptothralls for ROD
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