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Post by kazetanade on Nov 20, 2021 18:24:56 GMT
Yea no it was a complete shitshow.
Summary is: Wraiths are great. New wraiths in CORE is fantastic, and Novokh Wraiths with Anrakyr rack up 7A EACH!!!!
That's 42A from fresh Wraiths in the best case, which is really awesome.
Likewise, skorpekh are doing well with 5A on up to 6A on each big guy, and 7A on each small guy.
I played Szarekhan though, so -1A. Still good - 2 big skorpekh did enough to total a Redemptor in a sitting. Marginal, as -1D sucks for Necrons. But managed it nonetheless.
What sucked were: - 4 small skorpekhs killed ONE bladeguard. 24A, 22H, 9W, 4 Failed, 2D each vs 5+++. Did 3d total. WOW. I seriously do not know what to do with this BT bricks. Its so ridiculous.
- 2 units of Gauss HLD. 2 shooting phases. Total of 2 failed saves. 5 and 4d respectively. They're basically bouncing off invuls.
- too many points tied up into support. Phaeron + chrono for the HLDs, Anrakyr + chrono + Techno for the melee portion - I had a total of 500pts in 5 support characters alone. This is the same problem with gen 1 GSC lists back in 2017.
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 27, 2021 19:22:28 GMT
After running it around a couple of times, I've settled on what's one of if not the final build for my new wraiths:
Eternal Expansionist Patrol
HQ - Anrakyr - Canoptek Boss Technomancer: CCN, FSO, RLC: Voltaic Staff, WLT:Thrall of SK
Troops - 1x5 Immortals
Elites - 1x5 Flayed Ones - 1x6 Skorpekh
FA - 1x6 Wraiths: Claws, Particle Caster - 1x6 Wraiths: Whips, Transdimensional Beamer
Eternal Expansionist Spearhead HQ - Chronomancer: heat lance, HMA
Elites - Triarch Stalker
HS - 2x1 DDA - 1X1 Tesseract Ark
The Destroyer guns are ill suited to fighting -1D sources, such as DE, Orks, Dreadnoughts, DA, BT (but at least to a lesser extent). While they could be a relatively good pick in certain meta, and pairs well with the mobility of Anrakyr and his possy of melee, I have elected to leave them behind because 1: I think they're points inefficient and too specific into elites/buggies and can't crack vehicles well (getting 3 shots of S6 did at 50ppm), and 2: I do not have these models.
Big destroyers are just frustrating, bouncing off invuls all day for their cost. They're theoretically one of the best guns in the codex, and I honestly feel bad not bringing them, but the value they get you at 180ppm is vastly out weighted by DDAs and Arks. As an anti-tank gun I think the HLDs are better, but you get more tank via QS, more wounds, more anti-infantry dakka, and passable anti-tank.
Arks give you a consistent 3D when required, and a auto hit 2+ to wound if they have -1D shenanigans or transhuman shenanigans. (I need to find out if it works). The 1D kinda sucks on a D6 shots weapon, but I'd normally be carrying at least 2 for consistency, if I had the 2nd one on hand. Their QS and 4++ is great too, giving you ability to get 3 QS 4++ platforms once the table at any time. If Arks don't beat Transhuman then.. May need to reconsider later.
Flayed ones kind of just sat in the right points scale, but regardless, you need to clear ROD - they're great for doing that and are only 25pts more than Cryptothralls. It helps also that they can benefit from Anrakyr after that, if the opportunity presents itself.
The real test here is in the guns - if its sufficient to support our Wraiths so that their regenerating shtick can be a legitimate pain for the enemy to deal with, rather than just a slight durability uptick in terms of damage absorbed. The main problem I was facing is that the Wraiths do a good job of absorbing hate and doing damage, but because my guns were not getting anything done, they get blasted by the entire army's guns turn after turn.
Wraiths with Whips is a "under consideration" thing - being able to buff them to S5 means they're wounding on 3+ on the appropriate units. They double the number of A, and are innately 1D so they're perfect into -1D platforms.
Really quick:
24x2=48A, 3+ to hit is 32H, 3+ to wound is 21W.
24A, 3+ to hit is 16H, 3+ to wound is 10W.
Against a std marine, its 10d vs 6x2=12D.
Against a Terminator with -1D, it's (so pathetic its not worth considering)
So basically Whips are still pretty bad, until we consider going into a lot of 1W models like Ork infantries, DE, Nids, etc.
The guns on them are because you're rezzing them, you're moving forward 6" at start of game, and we're blitzing forward with 14" movement - total of 20" turn 1 before charges. There maybe some issues with range of buffs, but we can easily shift the guns and Flayed ones out for another gun platform.
Important to note though that Whip will still kill a full unit of Intercessor marines with base A. Getting Anrakyr or FSO on them makes them hit well enough to not worry about slight swings.
I originally had a 20 man block of warriors here - warriors are of close pretty good, that goes without saying. But without any buffs, warriors are not great. Without an Orb, a 20 man can be whittle down easily and be ineffective at anything. If it's kept back, it's an expensive block waiting for its one use missle, when the rest of the army is trying to push forward. Just doesn't make sense.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 15, 2021 12:08:31 GMT
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [108 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] +++ Configuration +Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) Detachment Command CostHive Fleet: Leviathan + Stratagems +Bounty of the Hive Fleet [-1CP]: 1 Extra Bio-artefact Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]+ HQ +Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 215pts]: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Relic: Biomorphic Carapace, Toxin Sacs, Wings Malanthrope [8 PL, -1CP, 150pts]: Stratagem: Alpha Leader-Beast, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Swarm Leader The Swarmlord [14 PL, 240pts]+ Troops +Tyranid Warriors [9 PL, 120pts]: Adrenal Glands, Synaptic Link: Bioweapon Bond . Tyranid Warrior: Lash Whip and Bonesword, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Lash Whip and Bonesword, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Lash Whip and Bonesword, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Lash Whip and Bonesword, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Lash Whip and Bonesword, Scything Talons Tyranid Warriors [5 PL, 75pts]: Synaptic Link: Bioweapon Bond . Tyranid Warrior: Lash Whip and Bonesword, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Lash Whip and Bonesword, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Lash Whip and Bonesword, Scything Talons Tyranid Warriors [5 PL, 75pts]: Synaptic Link: Bioweapon Bond . Tyranid Warrior: Lash Whip and Bonesword, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Lash Whip and Bonesword, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Lash Whip and Bonesword, Scything Talons + Elites +Hive Guard [12 PL, 270pts]. 6x Hive Guard (Impaler): 6x Impaler Cannon Tyrant Guard [14 PL, 250pts]. 5x Tyrant Guard (Crushing): 5x Crushing Claws, 5x Rending Claws + Heavy Support +Barbed Hierodule [14 PL, 275pts]+ Flyer +Harpy [8 PL, 165pts]: 2x Heavy Venom Cannon Harpy [8 PL, 165pts]: 2x Heavy Venom Cannon ++ Total: [108 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] ++Created with BattleScribe
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 15, 2021 13:00:08 GMT
Usually would consolidate and format but am out.
Really debated about Haruspex vs TG - the Haruspex has some real potential in AoR with its tankiness, its regen, and potential damage output. Its got a tonne of rules support.
But that rules support is also expensive cp wise.
Ultimately, going with HG I thought it would be better to leverage the reroll wlt buff instead of a Haruspex, but if I play non-leviathan I would seriously consider.
Another thing I don't quite like is lack of ability to score secondaries - no lictors no raveners, due to TG being points expensive. But assuming we use the TG as a cudgel, may not need the direct EoAF scoring, as they can just shoot across, and declutter an obj.
The big question is how to play this without a midfield blocker? But considering majority guns, it should be fine.
So hyped for this update.
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Post by No One on Dec 15, 2021 14:20:48 GMT
Minor thing, but I think run warriors as 4 man for 1 CP transhuman: could even drop the HVCs for all 4 mans. Though what's your adapts? Assuming size and I think you've got double adapt?
Could also drop HVC and some lw&bs for a lictor, but I think it's bad unless you can swing 2: not really worth just for engage (and would often just be +1 VP on that I think), and RoD isn't really feasible with only 3 warriors and a lictor.
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Post by piersonsmuppet on Dec 15, 2021 16:05:48 GMT
Ultimately, going with HG I thought it would be better to leverage the reroll wlt buff instead of a Haruspex, but if I play non-leviathan I would seriously consider. CS psyker power for full rr's in melee, so you can give Levi rr's to HG/TG and power rr's to Haruspex.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 15, 2021 20:13:04 GMT
Ultimately, going with HG I thought it would be better to leverage the reroll wlt buff instead of a Haruspex, but if I play non-leviathan I would seriously consider. CS psyker power for full rr's in melee, so you can give Levi rr's to HG/TG and power rr's to Haruspex. What I meant was, I ran out of points and the most replaceable part of the list was the Haruspex - I need some melee damage more than SL and a Flyrant, so it was a toss up between Haruspex and the TG. Considering I had the Malanthrope with HG already, I thought it was better to leverage the Swarm Leader WLT, so I made space for the TG by replacing the Haruspex and some other stuff. Even without the spell, Haruspex has its own reroll hits in Blood of Baal, so we do have options on that front. I'm quite keen on the Haruspex as a melee monster, as ever since Leviathan's supplement, I think there's some big potential for him - even more after the AoR updates giving him more A (his main output problem is lack of A rather than bad weapons), the AoR giving him a 5++ and -1D, 5+++ procc'ing his Acid Blood, Accelerated Digestion to regen up to 4 wounds total every Fight phase, access to a +1 to hit via Warriors, or a +1/+1/+1 via the AoR strategem, reroll hits and reroll wounds via strategems or spells, and MW on charge and auto-explode as the coup de'grace - this guy outputs 9MW just from charging and dying, not including how difficult it is to kill him. Just for comparison basis, consider the Toxicrene as well - less survivable (is a boon for suicide missle shenanigans), more A, better WS; but less ap, less damage. Takes less resources since 2+ to hit doesnt need reroll to hit as much, and has innate reroll wounds. 2cp gets the same results of 9MW if that's the game. I might do a comparison similar to what I did for Horma/Genestealers (or summon No One to do better stats than I can), but since that saves me 40 points and 2cp or more for reasonable results, it's worth considering. Or if we drop the TG and a bit more (not sure what else can be dropped though), we can bring both. I'm currently thinking of using the d3A and 4++ spells instead of the full rerolls tbh. No One I can do 4 man Warriors, but I'm not sure what to spend 20 points on. Maybe the cannon for the unit. Secondary scoring is still up in the air - Stranglehold is a maybe, and is kinda matchup dependant. ROD I'm not feeling as confident as usual - I would rather the 2 lictors honestly but can do that easier by dropping the TG, which I think need the 5 man. Possibly 1 lictor is enough to swing - 2 RODs to 3 RODs is like a 4VP swing. If I can get him to do the 4th as well, that's a 8vp swing from it. So I'll probably keep the lictors - they havent died even once in any game I've played, considering the enemy is too busy with other stuff. EDIT: List is up on front page. I also assume that I dont need to explain the Harpy, but in case anyone is wondering: 1. It's a better gun platform than the Carnifex, which has been our main gun platform for a long time 2. It's got 30" movement and can steal objectives starting T1 with or without the ObSec cp play, meaning an enemy aggressive play can leave an objective completely open to be stolen under his nose and force 0 primaries. 3. It's got more utility than a Carnifex or a Mawloc, as it does more MW with same amount of cp, it can also force people to Fight Last to help aggro control your melee, and it drops free sporemines. Honestly it's main problem was that it didnt shoot very well for a gun platform and it was too squishy, both have been solved in the Leviathan/AoR updates.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 16, 2021 18:26:32 GMT
No One zimkoI'm gonna try to start arranging games for the next couple of weeks - I'm actually super stoked to play this list archetype, more so than the Leviathan one, or my Necron one. I got 2 list options on consideration: Option 1: Hulkrant (Murderous Size, double ScyTals, -1 to wound relic, possibly Gestalt Commander to get WLT for regen missing wounds in future), Swarmlord, Malanthrope, with Barbed, 2 Harpies and TG/HG to shape the backbone core. Option 2: Scythed/Scythed, Barbed/Barbed, Harridan, Warriors to buff anything (but T1 the Harridan), and a Tankrant (-1 to wound, WLT for regen missing wounds, WLT for additional -1D once received damage) to carry new spells. Which do you guys think will be a more interesting list to play and will create more interesting BatReps? And also if I should make some changes to Option 2, as the main idea is really just mass MCs without dipping into Carnifexen.
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Post by zimko on Dec 16, 2021 20:30:47 GMT
The more interesting games will be Option 1. I'm curious how effective the harpies will be. As a side suggestion, perhaps give the Hulkrant 'Accelerated Digestion' to make him even more annoying? With damage 3, he can go after elite infantry and reduce their incoming damage by 2, be 5+ or 6+ to wound AND regen a lot of wounds per turn.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 17, 2021 5:49:53 GMT
zimko making changes - I gotta drop the TG, just realised its 6/6, I need more MCs. So taking a leaf out of your book, I'm putting in a Dimachaeron instead of the TG (1:1 on pts). Inefficient use of a WLT, which I will change in the future. With a Dimachaeron in place, the Flyrant has less pressure to deliver kill results, so can swap Murderous Size for Accel Digestion. Likely the same for the Dimachaeron too, to push home the "annoying durability" throne. But in that case it looks and feels more like a Tankrant whose main job is to survive and annoy.
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Post by zimko on Dec 17, 2021 13:35:42 GMT
The Hulk fits 'survive and annoy'. It's his invulnerability that makes him so good.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 17, 2021 15:21:52 GMT
This is fair.
I've done first test game today - I'm not used to using the Harpies and really messed my game up because of that. List and army archetype feels like it has legs but it takes a bit more tact and remembering how to prioritise safely.
AoR defensive buff is really good. I can legitimately see a case to push a shooting list heavy on defensive gunline, assuming you have the sight lines. 3 MCs survived 16 melta shots to the face each. That's not negligible - it would have been more with Encaphalic on the table. Cp would have been an issue, so it's either all in on shooting, or don't overspecialize in defense.
Hulkrant was not amazing, but he soaked hard. The main reason he died was he took 4 MWs to the face after Catalyst failed, and a big melta connected I think. Accel Digestion did not help, although it might* have if my 4++ was a bit more on point. SuperFlyrant would not have performed better.
I still think Harpies are good, but their use has to be smart and well measured. They're a terrible platform for "sit and shoot", and without fallback/shoot or a consistent you- are-now-obsec, getting stuck is really killer for them.
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Post by purestrain on Dec 17, 2021 18:47:37 GMT
I still think Harpies are good, but their use has to be smart and well measured. They're a terrible platform for "sit and shoot", and without fallback/shoot or a consistent you- are-now-obsec, getting stuck is really killer for them. They still fire spores off when you back out of combat, and then they just become additional numbers for the obsec you can obtain.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 20, 2021 21:20:31 GMT
So I made a reading boo boo - its 1:1 for MC/Infantry, so I could have had the TG instead of the Dima. I think the TG would have worked somewhat better too, and would close off the list nicely without need for too many changes. Ideally though, a Haruspex seems quite usable for flexible damage and would ideally come close enough to Dima performance on big guys, while chewing on elites nicely. I need to do math on damage output vs profiles for Toxi/TG comparison.
Next list running will be in new year- time for Fex guns!
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 25, 2021 17:31:20 GMT
So, I'm pretty satisfied with the 1:1 "Defensive" Nidzilla list that uses HG, BH, and TG to swing matches and contest midfield, I feel conceptually the only thing that would need to change is BH in the case of too much dense terrain - in which case you either bring a Scythed Heirodule and round out the TG to 6 man, or bring a Trygon Prime and something smaller, like a Mawloc for more Engage/Primary, or Biovores for some harass. Or a Dima if you are so inclined, as it's not a horrible idea either.
Spitballing ideas for Carnifexen:
6 Carnifexen: TLDS, HVC, ES, SC 1x 9 Warriors: Link, Cannons, DS, Bonesword/LWBS 1x 5 Warriors: Link, LWBS 2x Flyrant: Hulkrant and AC Flyrant 1x BL: Link 1x Harpy: HVC
It gives me 8d3 HVC shots, and 36 Deathspitter shots before the Warriors' mini version, and 2 aggressive Flyrants (Assassin gets 2d3 extra attacks to make up for weaker ap, Hulkrant is just Hulkrant since he doesnt get anything THAT useful from WLTs that are stackable), and a suicide Broodlord that can carry Adaptive Lobe. smaller cannons and extra bodies can be dropped to get a pair of lictors to still do actions.
Hulkrant can be dropped to get SL, and double stack WLTs on the Assassin. Dont personally feel like he gains that much from a 2nd WLT, but it's an option. Alternatively, Hulkrant can double stack WLTs to be super tanky at all times and just regen wounds every round (Assassin always gets Murderous Size and at least 1 d3 extra A to make his combat scary for all characters and some elites he can take down).
Other options can also include a Dima + Haruspex instead of the warrior unit and Broodlord, to flood with more monsters.
Unfortunately, we cannot double Hive Fleet, which is an extremely huge detriment to this build - originally this was built with the intention of supercharging the Warriors with +1 to wound and +1 to hit, making their midfield brawl much better and quite scary. Sadly they cannot get Tesla effect proper in Leviathan, otherwise we could have done that route instead since it has to be same fleet and none of the monsters really benefit out of being Behemoth.
Thoughts?
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