Is the Dimachaeron going to be an Apocalypse only model?
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Post by niloc on Jul 25, 2014 23:58:19 GMT
If that was the point, then I did miss it.
Touche'
No one has adressed the validity of the idea of target saturation, or atrition.
If I've got the wrong idea, id like to know. But repeated games using this tactic have me winning more than loosing against everything but knights. (And there im about 50/50) And I find a hard time complaining about any units other than the pyrovore.
Can you tell me why I see things others dont, and it works?
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Post by Yautja on Jul 26, 2014 0:09:36 GMT
I agree that the fex crushes face. No argument. However, as I've seen it said on this very forum many times,its better with x2 devs. In almost every situation. And its relatively low wound count coupled with low initiave means that the dima can survive combat against alot of things that would outright kill the fex before it swings. And the lack of ap on its HoW means that you cant count on it. Yes the dima is expensive. But you get what you pay for. And the fex takes a heavy slot. Now the stone crusher is another story. But even it does other things namley raping knights and land raiders. you missed his point; a CC fex is pretty bad. Only good CC Fex is from Wrecker Node Formation. D3+1 HoW is pretty sexeh.
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 26, 2014 0:10:33 GMT
a lot is going to depend on the meta in your area. i have no idea the level of opponent you play against. target saturation is a great idea; the problem is that with a CC list it's not cheap enough to actually carry off against savvy opponents, especially in 7th. threats will be identified, prioritized and shot off the board. you can't multi-assault (easily) with an MC, so the most you can do is erase one unit at a time. much like facing a CC deathstar, an opponent can simply feed you a unit at a time to stall you while it deals with the rest of your army should the dime get too close.
CC or even horde lists work really well against newer players/closed environments. when you look at running this in a wider field, where everyone's list is tighter, success is narrowed significantly.
try running the same idea but with 5-7 FMC blazing up the board supported by malantrhopes/venomthropes. this actually works.
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Post by webebuggin on Jul 26, 2014 0:14:32 GMT
If that was the point, then I did miss it. Touche' No one has adressed the validity of the idea of target saturation, or atrition. If I've got the wrong idea, id like to know. But repeated games using this tactic have me winning more than loosing against everything but knights. (And there im about 50/50) And I find a hard time complaining about any units other than the pyrovore. Can you tell me why I see things others dont, and it works? K. Honestly there's nothing you are proposing that has not been tried. Maybe you go up against players that are not as good at picking targets and saturating them. In most 2k lists there that are even mildly competitive, an opponent should have sufficient fire power to remove our Dimachaeron turn 1 typically IF they went all out to do so. If that enemy is Tau, its fairly assured. If that oppponent is necrons, then they are unlikely to. However you can bet any necron player worth salt with have a shackle lord or two that would love to make big 'D eat his own face. Of course most opponents will deal with the biggest threat in their faces. EG: flyrant and gargs dropping hell from above while big 'D tries his fastest to run. However comparing our big 'D MC's to other armies...well Eldar wraith Knight... need ANYTHING more be said about how awesome that thing is? 12" Move standard baby. Chaos MCs: As many attacks, can fly cast magic are fearless can take invul saves? oh and can get feel no pains too? They have such a wider variety of options and better delivery. Can fly and get in to CC AND are durable even WALKING. Grey Knight: Again CAN get boosters! wooo.... Let me put it like this: Is there ever a time where I would rather have a Dimachaeron over a Dakka Flyrant? Nope. If Dimachaeron had jump 12" or even move>run>assault with assault grenades? UHH YES. That would be wort the points. As he is, he is less effective than he should be which is saying something about trygons considering how MASSIVELY he outplays them.
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Jul 26, 2014 0:20:10 GMT
For us Tyranid players 200 points isn't that big a investment in a single MC, but any opponent looking to field it would simply go over the checklist that Silegy (and Giga on a regular basis) mention. I still don't understand this "you're not being forced" mentality. That is stupid. We all enjoy playing Tyranids, and unless you want handouts from your opponent like using old books and creating your own game then fine but I prefer to try to learn and deal with it. I like playing by the rules and it is just unfortunate our current set has many useless units/upgrades. It has got a lot better though, and I really am warming up to the psychic phase.
The Dimachaeron is laregly irrelevant in our army. That is all. It brings 0 new utility to the table. We have access to Instant Death with whips n swords and horri Swarmy. It can at least stand in the front of the line with the Haruspex and Trygon who also think they are good in combat without grenades, or a faster/durable means of getting there, in an edition that is dominated (not just favoured,) by shooting. It is still waaay better than the Trygon Prime, who just lost all purpose...
The Malanthrope is awesome, but they just copy and pasted a Zoey and Venom together, which is at least right fluffwise as well. (remember last codex with the copy and paste profile of the two?) It was the FW equivalent of the Pyrovore in its last incarnation, literally useless. Glad to see it is excellent bang for the buck, remember it isn't replacing your Flyrant anymore... Gravy. +
Stonecrushers are upgraded. They lost one of the few 2+ left in our book, but the option to squad up helps mitigate this a little, along with the gimmicky (remember Xenos here) rule instead of plain stat upgrade. Good for smashing a Knight at its Brainleech equivalent in cost. +
Hierodules... Cost should have been addressed. Whatever, not the end of the world. Still a bucketload of shots, or a nice Big Flamer. =
Hierophant still has access to a rare although horrid ++ (although 6++ combined with FNP is a nice little buffer.) It also has some crazy firepower and the rules access for transport or skyfire etc.. +
I wish our basic codex looked like this.
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Post by niloc on Jul 26, 2014 0:31:35 GMT
gigasnail the meta in my area is full of tournament players. And my lists work because they are non standard. The guys I play aginst expect flyrant spam. I dont always give it to them. webebuggin see this is what I meant. "If it was only...." "x unit is always better" theese coments are only situationaly correct, and fail to see the big picture. Yes the flyrant rocks. Yes its obviously the best unit in our codex for most situations. And its ok if you dont like the dima. But you missed how it would be used, and why. Compairing bugs to other armies in a "bbut they get that! Why not me?" Kind of way is unproductive at best. The dima wins agains all of the other monsters listed above, with the possible exception of a daemon prince. Oh wait, I forgot instant death. The only argument against it is "its expensive!" Or "its slow!" Contention one: expense. Mitigate this with a list full of smart choices, not just the preloaded 'good' units. Contention two: slow. learn to play with slow models. Honestly, its not that bad. Yes the enemy can shoot at it before it gets to combat. More time spent NOT shooting something else. All you need is enough similar models. Hence 'target saturation' For the record, my argument is not "the dima is auto include" it's against the mentality that "everything tyranid in every book isnt good enough" that seems to pop up every third post.
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 26, 2014 0:43:48 GMT
Your CC Dima and all of its friends would get mauled right to death by:
Eldar, 1850 Autarch Dire avenger X5, waveserpent Dire avenger X5, waveserpent Dire avenger X5, waveserpent Dire avenger X5, waveserpent Dire avenger X5, waveserpent Wraithknight Wraithknight Wraithknight
This is just an example, took 8th at the ATC. 40 hipsterism of not taking spam or taking 'unexpected' units will not really help your game.
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Post by niloc on Jul 26, 2014 0:48:18 GMT
I assure you, that list is not auto win. That list takes *very* good generalship to use effectively. And I've beaten it before, with sevral lists. My brother runs eldar, and runs almost exactly that list, plus a few more toys at 2k. Your still holding to the idea that nids arnt good enough. And your wrong.
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 26, 2014 1:19:55 GMT
ok sparky.
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Post by seanster3000 on Jul 26, 2014 1:26:51 GMT
Your CC Dima and all of its friends would get mauled right to death by: Eldar, 1850 Autarch Dire avenger X5, waveserpent Dire avenger X5, waveserpent Dire avenger X5, waveserpent Dire avenger X5, waveserpent Dire avenger X5, waveserpent Wraithknight Wraithknight Wraithknight This is just an example, took 8th at the ATC. 40 hipsterism of not taking spam or taking 'unexpected' units will not really help your game. It's lists like this that reaffirms my stance that the tournament scene does nothing to help the game. Awful and unimaginative list...
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 26, 2014 1:31:39 GMT
and extremely effective. pretty similar to a mechanized infantry platoon, if we had walkers/MC's to add on.
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Post by seanster3000 on Jul 26, 2014 1:42:11 GMT
I don't doubt that that list is extremely effective. It would wipe my list off the table than I would likely never play that guy again lol. Congratz you built a list that can curbstomp people want a cookie? I bet that guy only owns those specific models from his codex and nothing else, probably got them from China or eBay. Again not at all helping to evolve the hobby/game. Sad...
I used to play a guy that made list just like this I told him: "You do know there other units in your codex." He replied "I know and they suck!" My thought was then why are you playing this game a and I shook my head in disgust.
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 26, 2014 1:44:22 GMT
the player's friend status is irrelevant.
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Post by seanster3000 on Jul 26, 2014 1:51:30 GMT
Never was relevant to me...
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Post by asmodas on Jul 26, 2014 1:56:27 GMT
Do not feed the troll, guys.
Edit: just to be clear, I wasn't talking about Gigasnail.
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