Is the Dimachaeron going to be an Apocalypse only model?
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Post by seanster3000 on Jul 26, 2014 1:58:00 GMT
I know, I know, my bad lol!
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Post by Silegy on Jul 26, 2014 4:06:06 GMT
In highly competetive environment full of tournament players who play their Wave Serpent spam and.. what are current flavours of the month anyway?, taking a brood of Pyrovores and a Haruspex and your choppy-killy CC Godfex instead of these Flyrants they expected helps you win how..?
Do you even realise why do people expect our Flyrants? Because they do their thing and they do it well. They survive a lot and kill a lot. You know what they do vs a Flyrant? They take some shooting. Some flying stuff, some skyfire, maybe even some poison or monster-hunters. Do you know why they never expect us to take CC Godfex? Because it sucks. And now, you might realise that your fluffy little CCFex gets shot down by the monster hunters, the poison, the flying stuff AND everything else on the ground.
So yeah, Ill go bash my head against the wall looking at how stupid of a liar you are. Good luck in your competetive environment, Im sure your hipster CC list with added Pyrovore flavour is going to win next Adepticon.
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Post by Magorian on Jul 26, 2014 4:16:25 GMT
If that was the point, then I did miss it. Touche' No one has adressed the validity of the idea of target saturation, or atrition. If I've got the wrong idea, id like to know. But repeated games using this tactic have me winning more than loosing against everything but knights. (And there im about 50/50) And I find a hard time complaining about any units other than the pyrovore. Can you tell me why I see things others dont, and it works? That's exactly what I'm addressing here, niloc. The idea behind target saturation is to provide your opponent with too many worthy targets to handle. Not to expect your opponent to make mistakes because there are a lot of targets. Because that fails as soon as you come across an opponent who actually thinks about things for half a second. The problem with the decked out CC-fex was always that it was far too expensive to exist as nothing more than a distraction, if it even managed to distract your opponent at all. The Dima hits on a similar problem. The logic went that it was always better to spend your points on a unit that was actually effective, because an expensive distraction unit was nothing more than a points sink against an intelligent opponent. And if you just had to have a CC fex, common sense was to keep it as cheap as possible. Because if it ever actually made it into combat, that was just a bonus. Here's how this works. A knowledgeable player will have a target priority list, and the targets at the top will be the targets that can actually harm them. Target saturation is the problem of having too many of those targets near the top to handle before they can deal out the damage they're capable of. But a slow, footslogging, close combat MC isn't an immediate threat, and no matter how killy the stat line is, that MC will never be near the top of a target priority list because that MC can be simply avoided until the more pressing targets are dealt with. Target saturation is great, and it is most definitely a tactic 'Nids can (and should) rely on, but you're not accomplishing that goal when you can be countered by intelligent deployment and disciplined target priority. And the Dima is simply too expensive to exist as merely a gamble that your opponent will be either unintelligent or undisciplined. That is not to say that the Dima is useless, and I can imagine that in low points games especially it's going to be a bit much for people to handle, but it's not going to be used in the manner you're arguing for. It's an epic model, and a decent unit. The reason people are complaining is because it suffers from the same problems that Tyranids already suffer from. That, and I imagine people are frustrated by feeling like second class customers through the last two codices. The most recent one especially because it showed such an extreme lack of effort from GW in response to the community's response to the previous codex. It's a bummer when the identity of the army that drew you to the game is thrown out the window, and the gameplay problems from one codex are simply pasted into the next. Nobody is claiming that Tyranids are terrible, and nobody (I think) is asking for Taudar cheese power, but a little attention to the desires of the fanbase would be appreciated. Not just more neglect. Forge World has done infinitely better with the release of IA 4 than GW did with the last codex, but old wounds don't close easily, and repeated problems (however small) feel larger because of the fact that they've existed for years. We've had super killy footslogging CC units. We never used them because they were never effective in editions that favored ranged combat. Why would we want another? And the irony of putting it in fast attack...
I'm not a competitive player, heck I barely play at all, so I'm not one to whine about minor slights to effectiveness. And I've seen too many Tyranid victories to claim that they're just not good enough. But my word, would I like to be able to field 'Stealers, Hormagaunts, and Warriors without getting tabled. What I wouldn't give to be able to get them into combat with more than a handful of models remaining. And when I've been saying this for years, and I'm pumped to see new Tyranid material coming out, I sure would like to see something other than a bigger, meaner, OOE (read: a really cool, really awesome unit that I will almost never find a reason to field unless rules change drastically). Maybe a fast attack CC unit that was actually fast. Or maybe some kind of ranged AV unit to compliment what these days is usually played as a ranged army. Or, if you can believe it, a delivery system for our extant, slow, footslogging CC units. But not a bigger, meaner, awesome looking, more-of-the-same model that changes pretty much nothing. Had the Dima been released when 'Nids didn't already suffer from these problems you likely wouldn't have seen a single complaint. It's an epic model, and the worst you would have read about it was that your points might be better spent elsewhere. Just like a decked out CC-fex. But it had the misfortune of being released now, and it is so epically outshined by the new rules for an older model (Malanthrope). As for your arguments, niloc, you do yourself no credit when you strawman the above into "whining", complaints that the Tyranids just aren't good enough, or mathhammer vacuum thinking. And it most definitely doesn't help when you criticize people for "angrily flailing" when you fill your posts with sarcasm, pet names, and unnecessary insults. Just sayin'.
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Post by yoritomo on Jul 26, 2014 5:35:38 GMT
Okay folks, the last 5 pages or so have been wildly off topic with a sprinkling of flaming. This thread has run its course. If you have questions that have come up because of this thread then feel free to start a new topic to discuss them.
*locked*
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