Drop Zone Commander

[t⊗theark]

Just shouting out to anyone who plays it. UMC player here myself. For those out of the loop

www.hawkwargames.com/

[inferno]

Hey man, this is 60mm. Nuked my old account. I dropped 40k and am moving to DZC, will be ordering my Shaltari next week! How's your experience been so far? I've been demo'ing games at home by myself and am very impressed with the rules.

Ill be on the hawl forum as soon as a mod activates my account. Pretty derpy -_-

[tylertt]

I probably will never have the time or money to invest in another game aside from 40k, but I have always been curious of this game.

What are thoughts on it? How does it compare to 40k?

[inferno]

The games feel worlds apart.  40K games feel like they are decided as follows;
Codex Choice - 35%
List Building - 35%
Luck - 10%
Tactics - 20%

DZC feels like ;
List Building - 10%
Luck - 10%
Tactics - 80%

The armies are very well balanced, externally and internally.  There are some units that are less than stellar compared to other choices within each army but it's minor enough that you can use any unit and not be handicapped.  The rules are clean and far from bloated, but very tactical.  There's no easy button units/powers/wargear.  

Instead of players taking turns using their entire army, your army is cut up into chunks that you take turns using.  You don't have to wait half an hour while they other guy does stuff and it makes the game much more tactical and nail-biting.  Planning a couple steps ahead and trying to out maneuver your opponent is the name of the game in DZC.  Don't do it and you will lose.  There are no awesome gunlines that win on dice.  

The rulebook was $24 at my FLg and includes all 4 current armies in it, half the price of a single 40k codex. The armies are cheap compared to 40K.  

The game designer listens to the community(!!!)and updates stuff quickly, releases experimental rules for community testing/input on new models.  There are no questionable rules that no one really knows the answer to because the company is silent and uncaring.

If I could go back in time, I'd force my past self to drop 40k and move to DZC earlier.  Now that 40k is behind me, I've realized there are two GINORMOUS issues with gw/40k that make the game just rotten.

They do not listen to or care about their gaming customers.

Their rule system is extremely bloated and just...bad.  This is mainly because it's an old rule system that they cant re-do because of their whole codex/rulebook cycle.  All they can do is continue to bloat it more.  I have no faith in their rules getting better as it would require a complete reboot of EVERYTHING simultaneously.  Basically, not gonna happen.

I do miss the fluff of 40k but let's be honest.  The company that actually made the fluff and built 40k up is dead and gone.  

If any of your FLGs run DZC demo days or have anyone playing, check it out.  I didnt know my FLG wa running demo days for DZC until i checked their calender.

[barbedsparky]

@60mm/inferno: I was wondering what happened to you. Good to see you back.

I may just have a look at DZC, though trying to convince anyone around here to try something new is like pulling teeth.

I tend to somewhat agree with what you say regarding the philosophical differences between the two entities (good rules vs good fluff etc). GW seems to me to be riding a little on the coat tails of their previous successes and in doing so has to me deviated from the heart of what I hold dear to this franchise. Newcomers have to make their own mark and a good rules system that will slowly develop the fluff side in time will always have a fascination at the outset. How they continue to improve and evolve is always interesting.

Keep us posted

[Inquisitor Stingray]

I've been considering looking into it as well. Hearing good things about it and the prices, as far as I can tell, are very reasonable. Still, new Tyranid codex (although mediocre) has made 40K fresh again and my regular IG opponent is getting a new codex soon. So I'll be sticking with just this for a while, but maybe one day when the oil bursts from the backyard...

How long is the average game? Like, what would be the equivalent to, say, a 1500 pts game?

[inferno]

I should say that DZC has really great fluff so far, even for it's relative infancy.  I think it really needs pointing out the way the fluff is portrayed. There are 4 armies, two are human and two are alien.  The fluff is provided from the UCM (United Colonies of Mankind) perspective which are the humans who stuck to their guns and attempted to defend earth when the Scourge invaded.  So while the fluff is detailed on them, the fluff for the other races is provided as only what thr UCM has learned from encounters or diplomacy.

The PHR, Post-Human Republic, are the humans that followed the advice of an extra-terrestrial sentience to evacuate earth in face of the Scourge invasion, which it warned humanity was far superior.  The UCM has a deep anger towards the PHR as traitors for abandoning their race and home so lots of tension there.  Since they werent there for the Scourge invasion, a near complete genocide, and had a super-intelligent sentience guiding them, they have pioneered much in cybernetics and whatnot, hence the Post-Human Republic.

The Scourge are the nasty bad guys.  Similar to Tyranids in that they are dedicated planetary devourers, but different in that the Scourge are not bugs in space.  The UCM doesn't have a lot of details but know they are very intelligent parasites.  They're still pretty mysterious.

Last is the Shaltari, first aliens to make contact with humans.  They are the most advanced and have tension with the UCM do to their tendencies to be manipulative.  Their culture is very tribal, martial skills and battle experience is the only thing they respect.  To an extent that they will not speak to or allot names to anyone who has not fought on a battlefield.  More is known about them than the Scourge, but only what they wish to be known.   Though they can speak human languages, they communicate with a combo of vocalizations and color patterns , like a cuttlefish, so they always maintain an upperhand in communications.

I ike that enough mystery is kept with 3 of the 4 current armies that gamers have lot of lattitude for their own fluff and I'm sure more will develop as the game ages.  I also like that instead of mankind being the focus or a grand empire, they're very much a stubborn and hard-willed race fighting back from near extinction.  I think it gives them the cool underdog edge that people give to the IG, which I find bizarre.


As far as game lengths, I'm still playing and getting a grasp on 550 point games so I can't really say for 1500.  The game is not complex at all, the reference sheet for all needed tables is only one page(!), but the tactical depth is really nuts.  So even at such a small game I feel like I can play it another 20 times and be learning stuff.  I will report back as I work up to higher points.

The whole battlegroup activation system instead of alternating complete turns, in combo with the dropship element, gives a lot to think about.  Ironically, even with FAR less rules/tables/units, the decision making feels much more critical and multi-faceted than 40k, if that makes sense.  Definitely does NOT have the fantasy battle feel at all.  Feels very much like precise and deadly futuristic warfare.  That being just a difference in the two, not a better/worse thing of course.

[Inquisitor Stingray]

Nice, thanks a lot. What I ment by 1500 pts, is in WH40K terms, that is, what the equivalent of that would be in DZC. I will definetely have to look into this at some point.

[inferno]

Ah, I see. without writing up a list (currently riding the metro) its hard to say, though a quick google of DZC 1500 will pull up plenty. I will say that the starter are all ~550 and are all similar in composition;

UCM
3 Condor Medium Dropships
3 Sabre Main Battle Tanks
3 Rapier AA Tanks
2 Bear APCs
6 bases of Legionaires

PHR
3 Neptune Medium Dropships
2 Phobos Battle Walker
2 Ares Battle Walker (AA)
2 Junos A1 APCs
4 bases of Immortals

The UCM squeeze in more infantry and their tanks outnumber the PHR walkers and are faster. The PHR are much harder targets, model for model, and armed more heavily but are a good chunk slower.

A good point to make in a DZC-40K comparison is that there are no stand-alone infantry or characters, all infantry are 3-5/base, and list builring is more structured. Certain units can be taken in units as low as one but many have unit requirements like 3-9 or 2/4/6 so it's organized in a very realistically military fashion. You also can't take assign dropship to a unit that dwarfs it's carrying capacity as it is a waste of resources basically. So you can't fill up on empty transports or have every transport carrying one tiny unit at 1/4 it's capacity. You'd be really hard-pressed to find any real "min/maxing" opportunities in the game which I really like. List building is very difficult/impossible to abuse.

The types of battlegroups you can use are also limited by the points value of a game. Anything up to 999 for example is a Skirmish, which does not provide access to "Fast Moving" aircraft like bombers and intercepters. So it's impossible to run into spam of nasty units until you reach larger games. Great for balance and makes perfect sense fluff-wise too. Why would an efficient military send their largest and finest warmachines to a battle that amounts to a barfight in comparison to other battles in their theatre?

[Inquisitor Stingray]

Appreciate the elaboration, I've basically gone from "meh" to "intersting" to "where do I buy?" buy reading this. The prices also seem rather reasonable. I'll obviously need someone to play with so I might look into the starter set, with me going for Scourge. That's what my kneejerk reaction tells me to pick, anyway. If I can ask just one more question; how long is a game of say, 550 pts? It's not that I dislike long boardgames but they do tend to soak up an entire evening. DZC might have an additional appeal if it is more feasible to play a single game in a just a few hours. The point cost opening up what units can be taken is a brilliant idea. Thank you in advance.

[inferno]

550 between two players who know the rules is easily a 30 minute game max. The alternating activation system keeps the game running at a good pace. Another thing I forgot to mention is the way initiative works. You roll for initiative every turn (winner can choose to go second) to see who activates first. Of course, that only lets you activate one battlegroup before it's the next person's turn, so there's no my-entire-army-alpha-strikes-you stuff. You can also pay more points for higher level commanders which provides two things. First, a modifier to your initiative roll. You also get to draw more commander cards to use and have a larger "Sphere of Influence" (radius around commander) that they can be used in. So you can opt to invest more in your commander which will give you less units/firepower but more initiative control and tactical options. Or rely on more raw muscle and less commander stuff.

Scourge are really cool if you want speed and close ranged combat. Their stuff is on the lighter side for armor but they are fast, hard to hit and have extremely punishing (to the point of overkill in some cases), but short-ranged weaponry. Very much a rush into the enemies face and melt them to slag with plasma army. They have some cool stuff like a heavy grav tank that floods anti-personal acid/gas into buildings and houses 50ft killer worms to root out infantry from buildings, that's pretty much Scourge style in my mind.

[Speknawz]

Feb 7, 2014 16:53:22 GMT inferno said:

I do miss the fluff of 40k but let's be honest.  The company that actually made the fluff and built 40k up is dead and gone.  

If any of your FLGs run DZC demo days or have anyone playing, check it out.  I didnt know my FLG wa running demo days for DZC until i checked their calender.

I think I've known this for some time but clung to hope that they (GW) would see it themselves and rebuild the system but as I look at White Dwarf and everything GW is doing now I don't see this happening in my lifetime (I'm 24 mind you)... Looked into DZC a month or two ago looks awesome, I like that they give you Buildings with the starter kit. Seems like they WANT to give you the CORRECT tools to have an amazing time. I got a butt ton of money comming to me from tax returns maybe I'll pick something up and start spreading the word locally. It was either this or Warmachine honestly and I don't care for the steampunk vibe they have.

[inferno]

Yeah, I've known it too but it was hard to let go Although I really only cared for the Tyranid and Ork fluff. The Emperor fluff was way to cheesy-jesus status for me haha!

Yeah, the city with the starter set is really cool. The ruinscape and cityscape boxes are crazy steals. $36 for an entire board of buildings plus mat? Yes please! It really needs mentioning that the graphics for all the buildings are downloadable for free from Hawk's website so you can print all you want on cardstock if you'd like. Very refreshing to see a company so focused on making the game work for the gamers.

I really like what this guy has done with his!
www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1581

I find it totally nuts that everything; rules, writing, modeling, painting, photography, etc is all done by the creator himself. The guy really deserves success, I hope he enjoys my money.

[Speknawz]

I only cared about the Tyranid lore also, always hated the imperium except the IG because they remind me of the USSR how they would kill anyone that tries to turn tail and run away from their duties. Spehs Muhreenz were just to high and mighty for me, stupid Ultrafags. I did like Chaos though, Tzeentch is the man, well he's the bird daemon thing, either way he is awesome. Now I'm debating on selling my 5000pts of Nids or just holding out for a better set of core rules with this 6.5 update that is rumored to drop late this year. Although I'm willing to bet they just change minor things that won't balance anything. I also predict that they will ruin WHFB with 9th, I keep hearing they are going to make it more like 40K to attract new players, but those are just rumors at this point....

youtu.be/LaFNCVmD27U Something you guys might want to look at. I'll be looking to get some of these "basic" buildings, I love that it comes with a matching ruined building.

I'm still kinda up in the air if I want to play Scourge or PHR, I definitely prefer PHR's models, Really the only Scourge models I hate are their Marauder and Despoiler dropships, reminds me of a retarded dolphin with those dorsal fin looking things. With that said, If they had an option to exchange one army for another, say replace UCM with PHR I would jump on it in a heartbeat. Well, I say that but I am pretty sure no one even plays this in my area (Missoula, MT if anyone is near me please let me know!) but I'll most likely get the starter kit and try to convert people at the local hobby store.

New edit: To avoid double posting I instead make this edit, I have signed up for their forums and await approval. I also have decided I'll just go with UCM, they look cool enough and granted I won't get a Hades walker, I can cope with the drone base. Also their dropships remind of the Marine ships from the movie Aliens (also, the video game Halo but I think Bungie stole it from Aliens in the first place).

[inferno]

I am awaiting approval as well, whats your use name there? Mine is 60mm.
Getting the 2 player sfarter set or going resin? I special ordered the Shaltari set at my FLG, should be in early this coming week. Can't wait to start my paint scheme for the DZC day later this month!!

I've been demo'ing games by myself with UCM and Shaltari and I must say, jealous of the unit flexibility the UCM has!